Oh yeah the diseases will still wreck them, but they'll be in a much better state overall than they were in OTL around the same time, which will have repercussions for the later European expansion across North America. Especially given how borderline some of the colonization attempts were, even a small improvement to Native capacity could spell doom for an alarming number of colonies as a result.
The Missippian societies in particular are going to come out much more intact - they're close enough to the Mexica lands to have contact with them (and thus pick up diseases from them), and the extra generation or two before dealing with the Spanish will be vital for them.
A lot of the absolute worst die-offs were fed by Europeans displacing, killing, enslaving or otherwise just doing everything in their power to make life miserable for Natives.* This won't be as much an issue in the West and (somewhat) Central parts of Arcadia/America. East...well, that's still an issue since, again, the Romans won't be there in any sort of force before Europeans are. Fun times for those peoples, but even then, they have some level of inoculation going into things. Even if it isn't for every possible disease, even if it isn't enough time to completely recover...it's still far better than being in the middle of the first wave of die-offs while you have people doing everything they can to kill you or otherwise get you off 'their' land.
*this, obviously, isn't the case for cultures that never had direct contact with Europeans and still died off, of course. But for the ones who did...well. It wouldn't have been as bad if it were just the disease. The ones in direct contact with the Romans are the best off- barring cases like the Aztec -since they're at least getting some help. Even the ones that aren't in direct contact are a bit better off, at least, in that they only have the one disease vector and some time to recover before more start showing up.
I'm quite eager to see the Spanish reaction to Constantinople still standing tall in California. Also, I just had a random thought where I imagine the Byzantine Empire colonizing Australia, New Zealand,Hawaii, The Philippines and other places in Asia.
No, they never got a chance, as European explorers started making contact before their expansion could go far enough east. They only got as far as Rapa Nui - the closest they came OTL as far as I know off the top of my head - in 1200 or so. Give them a few hundred more years and they likely WOULD have reached the Americas in their island hopping- although not from Rapa Nui, for obvious reasons
Not yet. Word of God from Sky, either here or on AH.com, is that a few Italian carracks came along for the ride, which form a decent basis for further development as blue-water vessels.
But yeah, right now they have neither the ability nor the inclination to press across the Pacific.
I think this is my first post in this fic? Either way, really really well done history and an enjoyable read!
Since we're on the topic, here's an article on the mixing of Polynesian and Native American DNA I read last week. Pretty enlightening, though I'm not sure how substantial it is.
Article:
Ancient voyage carried Native Americans' DNA to remote Pacific islands.
I think this is my first post in this fic? Either way, really really well done history and an enjoyable read!
Since we're on the topic, here's an article on the mixing of Polynesian and Native American DNA I read last week. Pretty enlightening, though I'm not sure how substantial it is.
Article:
Ancient voyage carried Native Americans' DNA to remote Pacific islands.
Combined with some actually fairly convincing points about the origins of the sweet potato (google it), I think it supports at least a single contact event between Polynesians and Native Americans living in what is today Ecuador. Now, that's far before the date of the ISOT, and in any event it doesn't seem to be any sort of sustained contact (why, we can only speculate - maybe they got lost trying to make a return voyage?). Still, potentially a very fascinating POD.
What the Romans have are basically small and (relatively) primitive carracks by European standards. Not up to voyaging really long distances even if they did know where they were going. They, of course, don't. That's why voyages have been limited to coastal exploration and why they haven't really gone down to South America/Arcadia yet.
What the Romans have are basically small and (relatively) primitive carracks by European standards. Not up to voyaging really long distances even if they did know where they were going. They, of course, don't. That's why voyages have been limited to coastal exploration and why they haven't really gone down to South America/Arcadia yet.
Good news for the Romans is that there aren't a great deal of off-the-coast islands for them to fail to find. While it does limit contact, potentially significantly beneficial contact, with the Inca, and prevents a Bering crossing, there's not that much they're missing out on, and it's not like colonial European powers can project navy into the north Pacific easily.
I thought the Romans were relatively good at sanitation? They were building city-wide sewage systems long before anyone else in Europe had thought of it. Granted I don't think they had sewage TREATMENT systems like we have now, but they are still far better off than many cities in that respect.
I thought the Romans were relatively good at sanitation? They were building city-wide sewage systems long before anyone else in Europe had thought of it. Granted I don't think they had sewage TREATMENT systems like we have now, but they are still far better off than many cities in that respect.
Speaking of tech, there's a couple videos on cannons I recently found that piqued my interest.
Yes I know that they focused on Naval Guns, but with the exception of massive siege engines naval guns were exactly the same as land guns. What really surprised me is that Bronze of all things used to be the preferred material to build cannons out of before Iron-working of sufficient quality was widespread.
And what is so notable about the Purépecha in this Alt-Timeline? They've got Bronze working and deposits of it's two halves, Tin & Copper. Until the Romans get at some Iron deposits, backpedaling from Iron guns back to Bronze guns might be the fastest way to build new cannons.
Edit: Furthermore, going back to guns designed to fire stone cannonballs would ensure a nearly limitless supply of ammunition.
Yeah, if I recall correctly it's due to its physically properties as Iron cannons had a nasty habit of blowing up which meant bronze cannons were popular up to the US Civil War.
Yeah, iirc metallurgy haven't evolved enough to guarantee reliable iron pieces back then, so they had this nasty habit of blowing up without any previous tells (not sure if tied to the metalworking process?). Bronze was more flexible, though it was also more expensive.
I just realized today that the whole Cortez situation might go sideways. Everybody here expects the Aztecs to attack Cortez and his men on sight because they look "Roman." And to be fair, yes that will be the Aztec reaction. The thing is, the Aztec territory on the Atlantic/Caribbean coast belongs to their tributary states. These same tributary states who are in open revolt because the Aztecs took some big hits by having the invincibility of their warriors shattered followed by waves of plague and disease.
A bunch of these tributary states must be thinking, "Hey that Roman allies thing really worked for the Purépecha. If only we had some Romans of our own." And then Cortez saunters in looking like a gift from the gods themselves, and he takes advantage of the situation like the opportunistic bastard he is.
This is an important misnomer which needs to be underlined: The Spanish never took down a kingdom with 500 guys. They had the support of the Republic of Tlaxcallan when they invaded the Triple Appliance with tens of thousands of indigenous infantry on their side. It was similar in their warfare with the Neo-Inca State; Spanish cavalry was of immense utility but it could not have functioned properly without the native infantry screens gathered from those peoples not as sympathetic to the Inca state.
If you're from the bad part of Badajoz you're going to be far more interested in gold and silver than anything else. The tale of Constantinople may leave you gobsmacked but it's not going to stop you from pursuing your lust for filthy lucre. In fact it may inspire expeditions to set up trading relations with the golden city across the waters. Acapulco was part of the Pacific silver route that took specie from the Americas west and exchanged it for Chinese goods. We can imagine similar eagerness from the Colonial Spanish, even if the crown itself is less initially interested.
Indeed, when you've got a city of God on the other side of the Americas and it's, in the fevered imagination of the Conquistadores, absolutely filled with gold, then you may end up running into a situation where Pizarro might wish to brush up on his Venetian history and see if he can 'help' Constantinople just as they did in 1204...
It helps to imagine each Conquistador expediton to be a corporate entity with every member effectively being a shareholder. If you show up by yourself with armor and a weapon, you get a relatively small share of the profits; if you bring supplies or horses or extra troops or a ship, then you get a larger slice of the profits.
If you're going stake your livelihood on sailing across a quarter of the planet, you've committed yourself to going home a rich man or dying in the attempt.
I could see Cortez's arrival overturning the Aztecs in favor of Spanish-aligned tribes, or Cortez getting attacked right off the ship, or even throwing the whole territory into one big mess of disorganized, splintered fighting. Maybe he has to come back for a round two, giving the Romans and allies time to grab more territory, or pushing minor tribes to join them?
Depending on how the first conquistador expeditions turn out, they could drastically change the Spanish approach in the future, and encourage or discourage more treasure seeking missions. Maybe they will go to or focus on areas they didn't historically. We could potentially see a Spanish governorship in Texas, or over by the Florida panhandle, instead of or in addition to the (historical) one in Mexico City.
I think whatever way this goes, it's going to be fantastic to watch. Cortez, when he comes, will be a major wild card to throw into the p(l)ot.
The Empire that the Roman expedition returned to was, in many ways, the same Empire they had left. Politically, very little had changed. The Emperor remained Alexios and he continued to rule from Constantinople. Yet, to these men, it didn't seem quite the same. Not because it had dramatically expanded in the intervening years. Not because it had absorbed some new tribe, though this had happened in several cases. It was the very fact that it remained the same, that struck these men as so very strange. To more modern eyes, it is sometimes hard to understand just what it was like to be away from home for so long, in the days before easy transport or communication over such large distances. These men had not seen their families, nor familiar locations, for what might as well have been the prime of their lives.
Furthermore, many of them had grown used to the lands of the Purépecha in those years.
Was it any real surprise, then, that these men felt out of place? What had once been familiar was now foreign. Many Romans looked upon them with barely hidden curiosity, unable to resist knowing what the men had been through. Yet, they were not treated as heroes as they had been in Tzintzuntzan. At best, they were treated as soldiers returned from a long time away. The same as anyone else. It is little wonder that many of these men- more than a few having left behind new families with Purépechan women -chose to return with their Prince, upon completion of their visit.
--Roman Culture in The New World, Published 2007
'Returning to Constantinople was something I had...long dreaded, in many respects. My father had made no secret that he sent me off as the 'disposable' son. I was not destined for the Purple, and as such, I was the one he could afford to lose. I did believe, for many years, that my father had anticipated the expedition would fail. Or, at the very least, that many of us would perish. Perhaps that was unfair of me. He spared no expense in outfitting myself, nor my close guard. Our expedition was neither cheap, nor small. It is entirely possible that he did, truly, believe we would succeed. Perhaps with losses, perhaps not. Certainly we were expected to fight hard and wed the Purépecha to the Empire.
Yet, the feelings would not leave. Logical or not, I could not stop myself from feeling that way. Constantinople, upon my return, no longer felt quite like home. Oh, it was the same as I had left it. Perhaps there were a few more children roaming the streets. More of the old City had been rebuilt, as farmland expanded in Elysium, outside the walls. It remained vastly more impressive than any city I had seen, save perhaps Tzintzuntzan. Even then it was still larger, the Queen of Cities retaining her lofty title.
However, as I said, it did not feel like home. I had grown so used to hearing Purépecha, that hearing Greek or the Ohlone languages was...strange. Even my men had taken to speaking Purépecha as much as Greek, if only for ease. The wares in the stores were different. The dress of the people were different. And the people themselves, oh the people. They didn't understand. So long after the Siege, I feel that many had lost the sense of urgency. Of danger over the horizon. I do not believe I ever saw that among the Purépecha. Even in their Capital, it was clear they knew the Aztec as a threat that would never go away.
I...I fear that I may never be at home in such a place as Constantinople any longer. Combat has changed me. War has changed me.'
The return of Demetrios and most of his men was met with a distinctly...muted response. If any of these men had expected a Triumph the likes of Old Rome, they would have been disappointed. They were welcomed by family and friends, not the Emperor nor a cheering crowd. If anything, Constantinople continued as it always had, not caring nor noting that her sons had come home. The war with the Aztec was so very distant and remote, that few of the Empire's citizens truly cared. Even those who had known why so many soldiers were sent away, had long-since cooled in their emotions.
It was difficult to remain angry, even at what the Romans believed to be devil worshipers, with such a great distance.
Of course, it is easy to say this with hindsight. To the men who had been fighting the war, it was all too real. If they hadn't been expecting a grand return, they had at least expected something more than what they received. It was something of a slap in the face to their suffering, or so most felt. Demetrios, perhaps uniquely among his men, had expected something similar. Later journals indicate he had anticipated his father expecting his death, or the failure of his expedition. That they had survived- thrived -was a surprise. Was this accurate? Perhaps.
Regardless, the Expedition would spread out upon their return. Many men visited their families, knowing they would quite possibly never see them again. Others would attempt to rationalize the lack of change with what they had experienced. It was a difficult prospect for many. These were men changed by the war. Many, many records of the time focus on this fact. Men who had spent half-a-decade in Purépecha lands could not rationalize the differences in Constantinople, compared to where they had been.[1] So very little had changed that it almost seemed impossible to these men.
Perhaps it would have been different had they never left.
To the average Roman, who had never left the lands of Elysium, it might have seemed odd that these men had so much trouble. Alexios, aside from the expedition he had sent his son on, had become an Emperor primarily concerned with securing his Uncle's legacy. The Empire had not changed because he had seen no need to change it. The greatest of his legacy, his Law Code and the like, had already been put in place before Demetrios had ever left. While six or more years felt as if an eternity to the men who had been fighting for their lives, it was simply a few years of regular growth to those at home. If the Empire seemed the same as it had when the men left, that was very intentional. Slow and steady growth, consolidation of existing lands, and limited exploration were exactly what Alexios wanted. Even many of the exploration expeditions had been scaled back after the discovery of the Aztec. Why risk discovering another such enemy, when there was already more land than Romans to settle it? [2]
It may seem strange to the Expedition, who had fought over what amounted to a small square of land. Little had changed hands, beyond some cities and some prime agricultural land on the border, along with what would become Alexiopolis. Even that was considered quite impressive by the standards of the Purépecha. By contrast, the Romans had what seemed to be unending, fertile, land to expand into. Native tribes were small and disorganized for the most part, even if there were more of them than there were Romans. Rocking the boat was the last thing they needed, it seemed. There were no competitors anywhere nearby, and no need to change. It was easier to continue along as they had since Constantine had been alive.
Demetrios would bring this up, when he reported to his father.
That is a meeting that many tales have been told of. Alexios was an old man by this point, nearing the end of his time on Earth.[3] It is generally believed that he had not expected to see his son again in this life, even if he believed that Demetrios would survive the War. He wept upon seeing the return of his son, and the scars that he bore from the final battle and so many other actions. Demetrios had returned, yet he was not the same boy who had left. He was a man in his own right. A man who was a hero to his men and to those he had aided. It is not inaccurate to say the younger son had long-since surpassed his elder sibling. He had made his father proud.
Yet, if it were just that, tales would not be told of this meeting. Alexios was deeply proud of his younger son. Yet, Demetrios found what his father had done somewhat...lacking. While impossible to truly know what was said in that meeting, it is generally understood that the younger son pushed his father and elder brother on why the Empire had seemingly remained static. Why, while he was fighting for his life alongside the Purépecha, Constantinople seemed content to continue along, slow and steady. It made little sense to him. It might have, at one time, when he was a sheltered boy in the Palace, learning to use a sword as his brother learned how to rule.
Alexios would tell his son the honest truth, that much is well-recorded. That he had personally chosen, in the face of the Aztec, to call back his expeditions and to focus on building what already existed. He would implore his son to understand that, even if he had not taken the precaution to avoid potential threats, the Empire had not had the time to change. The cities founded before the Expedition had left were steadily growing. Constantinople's reach expanded every day. Yet, it had only been a few years. Even as men and women came of age, it was impossible for the Empire to have expanded. They were not the Purépecha. Rome was not a state established for centuries in their homeland, with population to spare and enemies to war against.
Demetrios likely understood this, at the least. He loved and respected his father, even if part of him still believed that he was the 'spare', sent to fight because he was never going to see the throne anyway. The issue, however, came with his brother.
Heraklonas was not his brother. He was not his father, nor his Granduncle. It is perhaps harsh to compare him to any of these great men. It was not a flaw to be less pious than Constantine, or less of an able administrator than Alexios. To lack the personal bravery and combat acumen of Demetrios. And yet, Heraklonas is not remembered nearly as fondly as any of his contemporary family. He is not considered the worst scion of the Palaiologos family to rule in Arcadia. That dubious 'honor' would come to one of his descendants, many years later. However...his relationship with his brother is the important note to make in regards to this meeting.
The elder sibling had always considered his brother something of an uneducated boor, in his own words. A man more concerned with the sword than with the Empire.
It was this feeling that had Heraklonas dismiss Demetrios' concerns out of hand. So what if the Purépecha were a more dynamic society? They could afford to be one. The Empire was still growing, still recovering from its near destruction at the hand of the Turk. In his mind, there was no need to rapidly expand. Where Alexios saw consolidation as preserving Constantine's legacy, Heraklonas saw it as simply the natural state of the Empire. He believed that, when his father passed on, he would continue doing much the same. Why change? If his brother wanted to gallivant off with some pagan natives, he could do what he pleased. Heraklonas would continue God's work in Elysium.
This, more than anything, is where the legends of the meeting come from. Some stories state the brothers came to blows over the elder sibling's dismissal of his younger brother's suffering. Others that Demetrios stormed out when Heraklonas insulted the Purépecha and their culture. All agree that Alexios would be deeply hurt by his son's arguments and the refusal of the elder to participate in the younger's marriage. It was a family meeting that, in many ways, showed itself all over Constantinople.
For many of the Expedition faced the same events. They saw family not understand their wounds, mental and physical. Family that could not understand, even with the Ohlone and other Arcadians in the Empire, why their sons would choose to marry Purépecha women. Wouldn't they rather have some nice Roman woman? Why would they want to live in some tropical hellhole, surrounded by pagans and in constant fear of war, when they could live in the pleasant climate of Elysium and never want for anything?
By the same token, the soldiers could not understand how their families could so easily dismiss what they had done. Why they couldn't understand how the men had come to love their adopted homeland every bit as much as they loved their birthplace. Sure enough, the Purépecha were stubbornly hanging on to their faith, even if they had agreed to stop human sacrifice. But these men had seen how their wives and families were at least willing to listen to the word of Christ. Surely, with Roman help, it would not take long before the Purépecha would see the light of God and join the faith. And even without that, they couldn't leave them to fight the Aztec alone. It was against everything they had suffered for. What their friends and comrades had died for.
For perhaps the first time since Constantinople had arrived in Elysium, the people of Rome found themselves at odds with one another. Unable to understand the experiences of each other. In the end, it is little surprise that these men would return to Tzintzuntzan, now more their home than Constantinople was. [4]
1. Six years was both an eternity, and a blink of an eye. To men who had fought for their lives, it was a long and treacherous time. The prime of their lives, used up in dangerous warfare. To the Romans back home, it was just another handful of years of calm life. Life where they had no wants they couldn't see fulfilled with the bountiful lands of Elysium. This was, in many ways, what caused such a dramatic disconnect between the Expedition and those they left behind. In the modern day of fast communication and transport, it is difficult to understand just how drastic a change it was for these men.
2. Even fifty years after arriving, the Romans had yet to fully explore what would later be considered Elysium, as separate from greater Arcadia. There were many forests that seemed to stretch forever. Coasts filled with bounties of fish. Land that, save for a relative few natives, ripe for settlement. There were not even enough Roman citizens to justify rapid expansion. It would be many years before the Romans felt the real need to expand once more. It would, indeed, take the threat of another potential foe- much as the Aztec had prompted the Demetrian Expedition -to force the issue.
3. Alexios would pass on a few short years after his son returned to Tzintzuntzan. He did not live to the same age as Constantine, nor did he ever reach the lofty heights of his uncle. Even so, he is generally remembered fondly by later Romans and the city of Alexiopolis continues to bear his name with pride.
4. To this day, there is a strong Roman minority in the Purépecha lands. Descendants of the original expedition and those who followed them.
AN: Difficult, this was. I was originally planning on doing a State of the Empire post, but then it kinda...got away from me. I started to think about how much of a disconnect there would be between the (safe at home) Romans in Elysium, and the men who had returned from the War. It is almost impossible for either side to understand the other, even after such a relatively short time as six-odd years. Just because of how very remote things were to those back home, and how strange it seems to those who fought to see how...laid-back the homefront is. Toss in the issues with native marriages and such, and well, we get what we had here.
I'm not being judgemental to either side, incidentally. Both have good points and both are right in their own ways (and biased in their own ways). The Empire doesn't need to be drastically expanding, and the Purépecha are in need of continued help.
It's a case of bad communication and just not understanding the experiences of each other, more than anything else.
Next update will be either the aforementioned State of the Empire update (which I'll do my utmost to avoid being dry statistics and such) or Demetrios' wedding. Whichever one it isn't will be the one after it, and after that, we'll do a similar update for the Purépecha and then we get into the Spanish. Fun fun.
An unexpectedly heart-wrenching update. It reminds me of the disconnect many war veterans experienced when they returned home to America, and the implications of their alienation - and their subsequent response - bring up the ending of The Last Samurai, where the protagonist stays in the once-foreign country he came to call home.
Excellent work, Sky. I'm looking forward to how Demetrios' tale concludes, and the events that follow it. Especially the wedding ^_^
Excellent. This is why I read Sky's work.
There is a strong, definite historical precedent for soldiers settling in the land they fought in, too. Examples are littered everywhere in human history, including (but by no means limited to) Greeks from Alexander's armies settling in eastern India, German mercenaries settling in America, the mess that is the British/French relationship... and I'm sure there are lots more I've forgotten or don't know about.
Definitely looking forward to wherever the story goes.
