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Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

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Skywalker_T-65 said:
Chapter 14
Roman-Aztec War: Aftermath​

It is generally accepted in historical circles that the Aztec were bloodied, but not yet broken, by the first War. They had suffered disproportionate losses compared to the Purépecha. Yet those losses were balanced by a larger population base to build from, disease or no disease. Given time to rebuild, the Aztec always had that advantage over their eternal foe. The Romans could certainly not have moved enough men to the lands of the Mexica to truly make a difference. The institutional advantages of both sides remained much the same. The Purépecha remained more technologically advanced, with a more stable and developed system of governance. The Aztec remained a much larger Empire with more bodies to spend in warfare. This had not changed, nor would a single lost war change it. Both Constantinople and Tzintzuntzan saw this quite clearly.

And yet, they accepted the 'treaty' to end the War. The Purépechan military was exhausted by the conflict and the Aztec were facing revolts from their vassals. If the War had bloodied but not broken the Aztec, it had certainly left them in a bad enough condition that the allies considered it prudent to spend time rebuilding instead of fighting. Neither side could have known, of course, that in a few short years...everything would change once more.

-Speech by Nicholaos Giustiniani, Roman Imperial Military Academy, 2016


'After the battle, there were times I thought I would die. That I had already died. Everything is a fog, a mist of broken memories. I vaguely recall being carried off the field by my surviving men, surrounded by the corpses of friend and foe alike. I remember Irepani standing guard while I rested. Beyond that, nothing more than flashes. I would have been convinced I had perished in that battle, were it not for Shanarani. She never once left my side upon arrival in Tzintzuntzan. She nursed my broken body back to health and told me tales of the end of the War. Of how the Aztec pulled back from the conquered land, and refused further battles. It was not a proper peace, so much as a break in the conflict. My ploy, foolish though it may have been, had worked. It was a salve for the pains I felt. A relief that I had not lead my men to pointless deaths...'

Demetrios had proven his worth as a military commander during the course of the War with the Aztec, many times over. His procession into the capital of the Purépecha had been that of a hero being welcomed home, even if he had not been conscious for the occasion. Few were the people who came out that cared if the hero was a Roman instead of a native. As Demetrios considered himself one of them, so too did the people consider him as near-enough their own Prince. Word of his glorious victory had preceded the arrival of the wounded Prince and spread like wildfire through the populace of Tzintzuntzan.

Had Demetrios been awake for the moment, he likely would have felt a wave of pride in his men. In later years, he would always maintain that it had been his men- and he made no distinction between Roman and Purépecha -that had won the war. He had merely led them into battle.

As it was, he would only properly awaken much later, when the Aztec had finally accepted defeat. The new border, pushed many mílion [1] back from the old, was garrisoned by Purépecha forces and already being filled with migrants from various tribes under the Empire. Those few Aztec citizens that remained were often bitter, yet resigned to their fate. At the least they had no need to worry about being sacrificed. It is debatable how serious the Purépecha were about the Roman requests to convert in the early days, yet they most certainly were clear about keeping sacrifices to an absolute minimum. If for no other reason than to thank those who had defeated the Aztec by their side.

And what a defeat it had been! While impossible to truly gauge how many Aztec had died on that field, nor how it had impacted their troop numbers, there is no denying that many thousands of elite warriors had fallen in the war with the Purépecha and Romans. Scant are the records that survived the later sacks of Aztec cities, yet it is clear enough that the War was vastly more destructive to internal stability than any previous war with the Purépecha. Revolts, notably by the powerful Tlaxcala, were straining the Empire to the breaking point. Men and finances were needed putting down revolts by the vassals, not fighting an eternal war against a peer power.

So it had been little surprise when the Aztec called for, what amounted to, a cease-fire. Neither side had a true concept of a peace treaty in the European sense, of course. What resulted was a vocal understanding between both sides that no true conflict would continue. Raids would not stop, nor could any one hope to enforce such a thing. It was merely understood that raids would be dealt with as needed. No true offenses into either territory would be allowed on pain of continuing a war that neither side could truly afford. A fragile kind of peace that would never, could never, have lasted forever. Yet it was needed nonetheless. Any peace was needed.

For while the Aztec were suffering vassal revolts, the Purépecha were faced with a need to rebuild their conquered territories. Many cities had been taken in ruin, Roman cannon having done more damage than traditional sieges would ever have managed. Even more pressing was the need to populate cities that had been depopulated, voluntarily or otherwise. This would normally be done with both Purépecha and vassal tribes, yet there was a rather large issue that the Empire had never faced prior to this.

Disease.

While none would deny the aid the Romans had given, nor the utility of it, the simple fact remained that where Romans went...disease and death followed. It is true that trade from Arcadia-proper [2] had long-since spread disease into the Central portion of the continent. Yet the worst to come was when Demetrios and his soldiers had arrived. Through no fault of their own, these men spread many diseases among the Purépecha populace. Diseases that the people were ill-equipped to deal with. In those early days, understanding of disease transmission and cures was limited. The Romans understood it better, especially after seeing it ravage the Ohlone and other natives in Elysium.

The problem, however, was that understanding how deadly a disease was, did little to truly cure it. Demetrios did what he could to advise the Purépecha on means of staunching the flow of death. He brought the knowledge that his people had from Elysium, and did what he could to provide aid. This had begun before he went on his campaign against the Aztec, and would continue upon his return. When he awoke from his wounds and saw that the War was over, he threw himself into helping with the suffering of his adopted home. Demetrios knew that he was not needed in the process of fortifying the frontier, nor in training the troops. His men could handle that.

Moreover, he felt he owed Shanarani and Irepani his support in alleviating the lingering suffering of their people.

Bearing this in mind, it should come as little surprise that the immediate aftermath of the War was focused on internal development. [3] The Purépecha were, on many levels, far more concerned with consolidation than with further bloodshed. They had won a glorious victory and could afford to focus on consolidating that victory, more than on pushing for more. As was typical with their wars with the Aztec, they had never truly expected a full and complete victory. Had the hope been there, with Roman steel and Roman support? Yes. It had been in the hopes and dreams of many, from the Cazonci on down. Even so, it had always been the kind of hope that kept men going, not the kind of hope they truly expected to see fulfilled. Merely pushing the Aztec back further than ever before was enough of a victory.

It had yet to end their endless wars, but it had given them hope. If it required forts built along the frontier, they would gladly listen to the Romans teaching them how to build castles and walls in the European style. If it meant they had to focus on curbing the damage of disease before it had crippled the populace beyond recovery, well, that was a small price to pay. After all, the Aztec surely had to be suffering from the same, yes? And where the Purépecha could rely on the Romans to provide what limited knowledge and aid they could, the Aztec had no such benefit. They would suffer and die with no aid in sight.

If the Romans had known of the amount of death in the Aztec civilization, from disease and sacrifices to appease their clearly angry gods, they might have felt pity. As it were, they had no true knowledge of how bad it had gotten.

Regardless, the aftermath of the war- for both Aztec and Purépecha -would continue in much the same way for years after it had ended. Romans would come and go, men returning home to teach the lessons of the War, and priests and others coming to settle in the Purépecha lands. The port of Alexiopolis [4] would quickly grow into a thriving trade settlement between the Romans and their native allies. This growth would help to counterbalance the losses from disease suffered in the green lands of Mesoarcadia. Further aided by the fact that many of the original expedition would elect to stay behind, or to come back after training their comrades in Constantinople.

First among them all was Demetrios himself. The Roman prince had fallen in love with his adopted home, and contented himself with letters to his father- and eventually, his elder brother -to keep them up to date. He would only return to Constantinople one time in his lifetime. To perform a second ceremony with Shanarani, to celebrate the bonding of the Palaiologos dynasty to the Purépecha Imperial line...


1. A Roman mile, roughly equivalent to the English mile.

2. Trade between the Northern tribes and the Central tribes was not as extensive as equivalent trade between, say, Italy and Germany. Yet it did exist, and disease had followed it. Disease spread by the Romans reached many far corners of Arcadia, leaving death and devastation in its wake. And yet, it may have proven a benefit in the long run. For it, at the least, prepared the survivors for when other- less friendly -Europeans arrived.

3. Internal development of the conquered territories would take many years to complete. The lands taken from the Aztec were not often prime land, and as well as this, there was a strong need to fortify in the European style. Demetrios had demonstrated how vulnerable cities were to sieges. Who was to say the Aztec could not learn from his example? This required more development than would normally be given to conquered land in earlier wars.

4. The land that Demetrios had secured during his adventures along the coast, named in honor of his father in classical Roman tradition.


AN: Not quite as long as I would have liked, but I wanted to get something done before I start properly working again. Hopefully it still works out well enough. After this, we'll probably have a map+state of the Empire(s) post or two, before THE SPANISH INQUISITION CONQUISTADORS ARRIVE which will be...fun.
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*Jarring music*
 
asqwerty3345 said:
Instead of them thinking Cortes is Quetzalcoatl they assume he's just another dirty Roman and they kill him and his entire crew on sight.
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"When in Rome do as--wait, why the fuck would we ever go to Rome in the first place? Rhome was bad enough, you think we gonna mess with the OG? FUCK ROME!"

DocMatoi said:
Eastern-ish Aztec "Oh, not you motherfuckers again!"
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*that curb your enthusiasm music plays*
 
I dont think so, Let me show you some spainish bois


Do they even look remotely roman to you? At most the aztecs would think of them related to the romans, but other then that and the cross they are far different. In fact if Cortes heard of the Elysium he would ask to go there simply for the fact that there are fellow christans here orthodox or not...and then get attacked so he doesnt meet the romans and then does his thing with that legendry luck of his. Remember cortaz come over for land, gold and fame. And what better fame than to meet the long thought dead romans of the more aptly named Western Empire. Even more so if the natives have proof which would excite Cortes and his fellows to no end. He wasnt even sent at first for conquest he just rolled with it and Spanish after failing to arest him just went with it to.
 
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Aztez Fan said:
Do they even look remotely roman to you? At most the aztecs would think of them related to the romans, but other then that and the cross they are far different.
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They are similar enough that the natives would likely assume this was a group of Romans they hadn't seen before. They are using similar equipment they've only seen the Romans with, and the Romans would be a significant ethnic mix.
 
Not to mention that Cortes had seriously pissed off the Governor/Viceroy of Cuba, who made Cortes a political pariah. It was only because he managed to conquer the Aztecs and looted the capital of what gold didn't get tossed into Lake Tenochtitlan that he was able to avoid getting prison time. The Spanish nobility still closed ranks to screw him over later though. Later conquistadors took Cortes as an example and made sure to enhance their pillaging and looting strategies to skim as much as they could, since the future milking of their conquests was by no means assured by being appointed as the governor.
 
Cortes apparently had the devils own's luck given the Viceroy of Cuba had literally sent a army after him to arrest him that he managed he managed to overcome in spite of being outnumbered then turn to his side which he then used in his conquests.
 
WrandmWaffles said:
They are part of the VERY Eastern Orthodox Christian Church.
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My headcanon is that they mistranslate their religious names, so when the conquistador asks if they're part of the Roman Catholic church, they remember Constantinople's empire is called Rome, and Eastern Orthodox is apparently officially named the "Orthodox Catholic Church," so they say Yes.
 
Aztez Fan said:
Do they even look remotely roman to you?
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Well perhaps to a European, they might look different, but to an Aztec who hasn't actually seen a Roman soldier but has heard they have metal helmets, metal armor, and metal weapons, along with their fire sticks, how could they possibly tell the difference between a Roman and a Spaniard?
 
Brainarius said:
Would Cortes and co. recognise Greek if a native tried to speak it to them?
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They would probably know enough to recognize it as Greek, but Latin was also still the official language of the Byzantine Empire was Latin up until the end, even with Greek being the much more widely spoken language so if the native has had enough contact with the Romans to pick up a conversational vocabulary, they might have picked a mix of both greek and latin.
 
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asqwerty3345 said:
They would probably know enough to recognize it as Greek, but Latin was also still the official language of the Byzantine Empire was Latin up until the end, even with Greek being the much more widely spoken language so if the native has had enough contact with the Romans to pick up a conversational vocabulary, they might have picked a mix of both greek and latin.
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Latin was dropped as the official language because after the loss of the West, there was no point in holding on to it. It fell out of use as an administrative language, and Greek was taken up instead.
 
When the Spanish show up, they'd probably have someone who can at least recognize Greek. I sincerely doubt there's anyone around who is fluent in Greek (though stranger things have happened) since this is well before the Hellenic revival stuff started happening. Greek culture is not a big thing yet.

Of course, that's being semi-realistic about things. No one is saying I have to be entirely realistic in an inherently ASB timeline :V
 
Professor Vesca said:
Also greek is the language used to perform religious services, being the Greek rite...
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Not really, I would expect Purépecha to be the main liturgical language in the PIréchecua Tzintzuntzáni. The Orthodox Church has a tendency to translate the Liturgy when evangelizing. The Church did it with the Bulgarians, Serbians, and Russians. Now, it has done a rather poor job at keeping the Divine Liturgy updated to the vernacular, but that's just complacency tradition.

Oh sure, the Episocate will likely be Roman for the next few centuries but Greek should not be the language of the Liturgy.
 
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MrHobbit said:
Not really, I would expect Purépecha to be the main liturgical language in the PIréchecua Tzintzuntzáni. The Orthodox Church has a tendency to translate the Liturgy when evangelizing. The Church did it with the Bulgarians, Serbians, and Russians. Now, it has done a rather poor job at keeping the Divine Liturgy updated to the vernacular, but that's just complacency tradition.

Oh sure, the Episocate will likely be Roman for the next few centuries but Greek should not be the language of the Liturgy.
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I mean more for Greek being the official language of the eastern romans.
 
I have to wonder whether or not the rush for the New World will stumble for a bit after the discovery that Constantinople was transported to the New World. Beyond finding out that god transported an entire city to save it, and that god's most favored people are apparently Orthodox, a big excuse for conquering and enslaving populations was that they weren't Christian and that only they could save these people's souls. Of course, the main purpose was wealth and resources, but religion was a big way to drum up support. An already Christian population being there and performing missionary work undercuts that excuse and makes it a bit harder to seek volunteers and donations when the religious part of the colonization work is cut out of it.

Of course, I suppose another reaction Europe could have is a sudden swelling of colonization/missionary attempts in order to beat the Byzantines to the punch as it were, to colonize and assimilate all the lands they can before the Byzantines do. Though I feel like a reaction like that is a lot less likely, for all the evil people did they still did consider god to be of the utmost importance. Encountering such a blatant and powerful miracle is the sort of thing to throw centuries of established religious beliefs into chaos. Still I do think Europe will continue their colonization attempts after how long it takes for the shock and religious debates to pass. Though if the Catholic church expects to be able to out convert Constantinople I think they'll soon find themselves sorely mistaken, the Byzantines are pretty experienced with the process by now, are much more welcoming of foreign cultures, and frankly between the Spanish and themselves I feel most people will find the Byzantines to be the preferable rulers. Spain has gotten used to crushing people under its heel, squeezing out every drop of blood it can, and then making people thank them for the privilege. Constantinople, by necessity, has learned how to make people both want to convert and how to ignore cultural traditions that might not be totally acceptable in traditional Christian thinking so long as taxes are paid and proper respect is given to the rulers.

Granted it sucks for the peoples of the Americas that they basically only have two choices of European ruler, but what choice do they have really?

I also have to wonder how long it's going to be before the Byzantines contact the Inca. Archeological evidence shows many long-distance trade routes between the various American civilizations. The Purépecha just may not have brought the Inca up because they have more important things to worry about then distant kings or the lack of any heavy trade with the Aztec may have prevented any goods or rumors of the Inca from ever reaching them. And I bring up the Inca because I feel like pretty soon the Byzantiums will feel a drastic need for more allies in order to prevent any more European powers from gaining a significant amount of territory on either continent, especially after meeting Cortez. Or seeing how colonies in the new world are currently run. The massive amounts of enslavement, mutilation, and death in the current European colonies runs absolutely counter to what the Byzantiums have established for themselves as standard procedure, that is the slow assimilation and assistance they usually do.

Don't get me wrong, both powers are trying to expand and conquer, but one power has papers detailing how it is their responsibility to protect and treat the people they are bringing into the fold with respect, while the other power has papers saying the locals are weak-willed, naive, and childlike which is why they keep dropping like flies, it certainly isn't due to the conditions in the colony, no siree.
 
While I am writing this from an (inherently) biased Roman perspective...honestly, it won't be long before one could more accurately call the Roman (or Byzantine, if you must) state 'native' instead of European. They started from a population of less than 100k assorted Europeans, and have been busy assimilating the natives. With no real desire to keep the blood 'pure' (ugh), the interbreeding with the natives is going to start really diluting the European-ness of Constantinople's Empire, aside from Christianity and the Greek (and remnant Turkish/Italian) language. It'll always be different and clear it came from Europe, but it won't be in the same sense as the United States being European descended, to use an example.

With fairly likely migration from the Purépecha and assorted other Mesoarcadian/Mesoamerican people- if only because inter-state migration is a thing -it will only further increase the intermixing of the populations.

For damn sure, one can expect that the European colonizers will start considering them 'native' and not European, when it becomes more prudent for their own goals.

(don't misunderstand me: The Roman method is still a bit 'white man's burden' in nature, they're just better at treating the natives and their cultures. They still expect Greek to become the main language and the religion to be Orthodox, even if both are getting a bunch of native influence. It's just a matter that all the assimilation is going to gradually transform them into some weird chimera of Greek and Native Arcadian culture as time goes by.)

Not quite the same situation as OTL!Mexico either, even if a lot of that population is a mix between Spanish and the various natives. They're a former colony that always has looked more to Europe in a lot of ways. The Romans, by contrast, are going to be integrating native cultures and having it shape their own culture to the point they're going to become gradually more native than European, other than language and faith.

And even those won't be recognizable forever.
 
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If you're from the bad part of Badajoz you're going to be far more interested in gold and silver than anything else. The tale of Constantinople may leave you gobsmacked but it's not going to stop you from pursuing your lust for filthy lucre. In fact it may inspire expeditions to set up trading relations with the golden city across the waters. Acapulco was part of the Pacific silver route that took specie from the Americas west and exchanged it for Chinese goods. We can imagine similar eagerness from the Colonial Spanish, even if the crown itself is less initially interested.

Indeed, when you've got a city of God on the other side of the Americas and it's, in the fevered imagination of the Conquistadores, absolutely filled with gold, then you may end up running into a situation where Pizarro might wish to brush up on his Venetian history and see if he can 'help' Constantinople just as they did in 1204...
 
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If the Conquistadors decides to "help" Constantinople like Enrico Dandalo... Would that make their image more "positive". Even with the Orthodox church having chunks of them beign taken away, there are still huge swathes of lands under the orthodox in East Europe and its not like the Orthodox had a centralization of authority like the Catholic so the Orthodox would still go on strong right?
 
The Orthodox Church went on strong OTL, with the Ecumenical Patriarch an Ottoman puppet. It'd still do the same here (hell, until- and maybe even after -Constantinople is found, the Ottomans probably have a puppet here too) for the same reasons. Namely, Russia spreading it all over the place.
 
Skywalker_T-65 said:
The Orthodox Church went on strong OTL, with the Ecumenical Patriarch an Ottoman puppet. It'd still do the same here (hell, until- and maybe even after -Constantinople is found, the Ottomans probably have a puppet here too) for the same reasons. Namely, Russia spreading it all over the place.
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So, think this might result in the Orthodox coming to blows with the Catholic? Like say the wars between the Catholic and the Protestants becoming a three way?
 
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