Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

Might the Romans end up making Arcadia into a sort of North American equivalent of Peru in terms of country shape? Plenty of room to just expand up and down the Western Coast of North America, up to where Vancouver now is and down to what in TTL is the territory of their native allies. They're not going to see the English/Dutch for another 200 years at least so for now it's more the Spanish, Portuguese and French Empires that will be their problem.
 
It's entirely possible, however unlikely in the face of "1800s Manifest Destiny," that the Great Plains and 'Indian Country' could become a buffer state between the Romans and whoever their neighbors turn out to be.
The question is; with larger and more disease resistant natives, at least in the more western half of the continent, in Mēxihco and anywhere that the Central American trade routes go (which, IIRC, there is evidence for them going quite deep into both North and South America), will Manifest Destiny still be a thing?

A major supporting foundation of Manifest Destiny was the concept that the land was empty, that natives were few and far between and that there was nothing standing in the way of colonization and expansion. Which was, broadly, somewhat true thanks to like 90% of the native population being wiped out by disease.


If the natives have already started developing immunities to European diseases thanks to earlier contact with them from Constantinople, then there will be a lot more of them and they will be a lot more organized by the time any ideas of Manifest Destiny roll around, and that's not taking into account the effect that knowledge of the definitively Chosen City Of God being on the other side of the continent would have on people's attitudes towards colonization.

It's one thing to dismiss the Very-Western Roman Empire as 'natives' and unimportant when you're only meeting slightly European-looking native people, it's quite another to do the same when you're staring at the City of Constantinople that somehow fucking teleported onto the other side of the planet to escape Mehmed the Conqueror.

That kind of solid, definitive, provable miracle that you can literally point to and go 'what the fuck?' isn't something that can just be ignored unless you are a long way away from it and can pretend it doesn't exist.


Plus, given the Romans historical focus on assimilation rather than conquest and enslavement, combined with Saint Constantine's divine mandate towards the natives, I'd expect to see a lot of semi-allied native polities along the fringes of Roman territory: The whole thing with the Purépecha went so well that I can't see the Very-Western Roman Empire not trying that sort of thing again with other native groups, which could easily lead to a whole bunch of 'semi-Romanized' native polities dotting the middle of the continent as a much more resilient and organized 'buffer' than OTL, which would have knock-on effects for any potential Manifest Destiny moves.

I'd expect to see that North America ends up split into three vague 'strips' with the Romans in the west, the Europeans in the east and a bunch of native confederacies and alliances with ties to the Romans in the middle. (No clue about how Canada might go.) The other thing that comes to mind is that IIRC there was a lot of wheeling and dealing with regards to 'ownership' of North America, with England and France doing the diplomacy and the politics out the wazoo while trading chunks of land around. That will be another part where the presence of larger, more organized, more technologically advanced and more resilient Native populations cause a lot of changes, not to mention Constantinople itself.

(Keep in mind; there were multiple native communities in the Great Plains area that were totally annihilated by disease long before any European ever even set eyes upon the region, communities that we only know existed today from hearing of them through other native communities. And literally the only thing we know about these peoples is that they used to exist somewhere in this general area, and that they did not exist by the time any white people showed up. The Roman introduction of European diseases might change that.)


Central and South America will go very differently; amongst other things there is no chance at all that Moctezuma will just let Cortés saunter on in to Tenochtitlan in order to 'learn his weaknesses', which means no easy coup and sacking of the city followed by a hasty getaway laden down with gold. That alone will have a significant impact, as without ludicrous amounts of free gold to wave around I suspect that Cortés will find avoiding the consequences for his many crimes to be rather more difficult than it was in OTL. And that's not even getting into the knock-on effects that the presence of the Purépecha as an organized, partially Romanized nation will have on the area.


Might the Romans end up making Arcadia into a sort of North American equivalent of Peru in terms of country shape? Plenty of room to just expand up and down the Western Coast of North America, up to where Vancouver now is and down to what in TTL is the territory of their native allies. They're not going to see the English/Dutch for another 200 years at least so for now it's more the Spanish, Portuguese and French Empires that will be their problem.
They will be looking inland, but at the very least early colonization efforts are probably going to be along the coast yes: Building the necessary roads for inland travel and colonization is a time consuming and expensive process, even for the archetypal road builders of Rome. Ships on the other hand are much cheaper in comparison and can travel anywhere along the coast at greater speed and carrying more cargo than land wagons, so the initial Roman expansion will probably be along the coast, and Roman territory in general is unlikely to get past the Rockies any time in the next couple of centuries. (The Rockies are a serious barrier to conventional ~15th century travel technology, it is no coincidence that European colonization didn't get around those mountains until literally centuries later.)

That said, the natives do trade with each other, so while direct Roman influence is unlikely to pierce the Rockies, Roman technologies and ideas may well spread across them and into native communities on the other side.
 
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Guys were forgeting someone

Russia.

They irl colonized Alaska and had a fort in Califirnia called Fort Ross, that Fort is what lead to the spanish focusing more on California just so they show they owned it and wasnt simply a back water with a long road of Mission churchs.

Im sure the russians would make Alaska a stoping point for further trade with the natives and then the Romans.
 
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Guys were forgeting someone

Russia.

They irl colonized Alaska and had a fort in Califirnia called Fort Ross, that Fort is what lead to the spanish focusing more on California just so they show they owned it and wasnt simply a back water with a long road of Mission churchs.

Im sure the russians would make Alaska a stoping point for further trade with the natives and then the Romans.
Russia reaches mainland North America in the 1740s-1760s. That's over 200 years in the future from now. Interesting. If the Romans get to Alaska first, there may well be conflict between the 2 over the influence/rule of Alaska.
 
At least Yellowstone is likely to stay the same. If less a traditional park and more likely a holy land (after all, the Romans can pretty much all agree there is NO question God exists after their ride through spacetime) considering the sheer beauty and, in places, otherworldly beauty, to it. The paintpots, colored pools & some parts of Yellowstone River (especially in winter) quite literally *do* look like they came from another world if you've ever seen them in person.

I'm all for messing with the timelines, but, well, some things you just can't mess with. Or at least, shouldn't mess with.

Actually, that might just be a thing. The Romans quite likely DO believe the very hand of God just saved them. Messing up 'his' works of true natural beauty might just be viewed as anathema to them (hilariously, the 'green' movement starts eight centuries early, and for 'divine' reasons). If they think they can make it look better, or its a desolate area, sure, build there. Their pragmatic Roman side showing through. But if its a place that looks too good, areas of true natural beauty that are breathtaking/awe inspirinh? Nope, it stays natural, with minimal disruptions. Just with very tastefully placed areas of worship scattered about.

Or at least, I'd like to hope it would.
 
Russia reaches mainland North America in the 1740s-1760s. That's over 200 years in the future from now. Interesting. If the Romans get to Alaska first, there may well be conflict between the 2 over the influence/rule of Alaska.
Would the presence of Constantinople push the Tsars to expand into Alaska earlier, or would it still wait until the Russian Empire for that to happen? And either way, would the Tsars\Empire attempt war on the Most-Western Roman Empire or would they try for the potential gold mine that would be a Trans-Pacific trade route instead? I can see reasonable arguments for all of those possibilities and anywhere in-between, and if contact gets accelerated to before Peter the Great's reign would that have any impact on the foundation of the Russian Empire? And what about Asia?

Way too many variables involved to have any clue how that would go until the story has progressed a lot more I reckon.
 
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I'm not sure the Tzars could ever justify a war against Constantinople. That would be a political nightmare.

Amusingly enough it's possible that Romans end up in the land that would become Vladivostok first and use it as a trading more with the European and Asian powers.

I wonder how the Qing are going to deal with the Romans. They might manage to start modernizing earlier.
 
I wonder how the Qing are going to deal with the Romans. They might manage to start modernizing earlier.

Nah the Qing were SUPREMELY arrogant in their own superiority. They responded to the British diplomats in Latin of all languages, since that is the language of the Europeans after all. The only thing that would get them to get modernizing is getting their ass kicked like in the Opium Wars
 
The Qing did not really need to 'modernize' because they were modern, and were suddenly and rapidly outpaced only in the first half of the nineteenth century. Even if there were aspects of European technology that were more advanced, the volume and richness of the Qing domains in the late eighteenth century absolutely kept pace with European ones, and although the Dutch might have naval battles with local fleets, the Qing were not in any real danger of becoming a target until they suddenly were.

Although there were a number of roots to the divergence that go back much further, it only really became clear in the nineteenth century. So it is difficult to imagine an early modernization when it was not very clear to the Qing that there was anything to modernize.
 
Also, the Qing themselves are 200 years after the PoD. 200 years is enough time that, if the author wants to change something there, it would be absolutely justified.
 
Also, the Qing themselves are 200 years after the PoD. 200 years is enough time that, if the author wants to change something there, it would be absolutely justified.
Well, one of the factors in the Ming falling that let the Qing take over was the Little Ice Age causing a famine, which might very well be butterflied here - one of the theorized causes of the Little Ice Age was the depopulation of the Americas. If the inoculation provided by the Constantinopolitan presence reduces the die-off and Europeans get less of a massacre-inducing foothold, the Ming might hold on
 
Well, one of the factors in the Ming falling that let the Qing take over was the Little Ice Age causing a famine, which might very well be butterflied here - one of the theorized causes of the Little Ice Age was the depopulation of the Americas. If the inoculation provided by the Constantinopolitan presence reduces the die-off and Europeans get less of a massacre-inducing foothold, the Ming might hold on
Depending on your definition of "Little Ice Age", it had already started at the time of the PoD. Certainly, the Medieval Optimum had ended in the 14th century already. Though the climatic minimum was only in the mid-17th century, that's true... but that seems to have been just a continuation of a general trend. Maybe. It's always hard to say with climate, o course.
 
For most of history, the Chinese have considered themselves to be the largest, most populous, most civilized, most powerful, most wealthy, most cultured, most important nation under Heaven. (Aka on Earth.)

And until the British started sailing gunboats up the Yangtze, they weren't really wrong to believe all those things.
 
For most of history, the Chinese have considered themselves to be the largest, most populous, most civilized, most powerful, most wealthy, most cultured, most important nation under Heaven. (Aka on Earth.)

And until the British started sailing gunboats up the Yangtze, they weren't really wrong to believe all those things.

I feel like this is super-reductionist and also not unique to China? Most nations considered themselves to be the center of civilization, the rest merely barbarian pretenders or wicked outsiders.
 
I feel like this is super-reductionist and also not unique to China? Most nations considered themselves to be the center of civilization, the rest merely barbarian pretenders or wicked outsiders.
Well, yes, but unlike China they didnt have the power and knowledge and influence to back those claims up.
 
I feel like this is super-reductionist and also not unique to China? Most nations considered themselves to be the center of civilization, the rest merely barbarian pretenders or wicked outsiders.
Well, yes, but unlike China they didnt have the power and knowledge and influence to back those claims up.
This, pretty much. The Chinese have historically often considered themselves to be the largest, most powerful, most wealthy, most advanced etc. polity in the world because for the majority of known history, they generally were those things: They had the longest history, the most people, the most materials, the most land, the most wealth, the most culture, the works.
(The Chinese only burned all their important libraries like once, during that unfortunate bout of Communism, compared to us Europeans who apparently had a thing for burning libraries and destroying historical records, seeing as it kept happening.)

That's why the sudden rise of Europe in the ~18th century came as such a horrible surprise to the Chinese nobility of the era, for thousands of years China had been the center of the world, arguably matched in the West for only a short time by long-fallen Rome.

And then one day all these Brits showed up out of fucking nowhere and went 'Hello there old chap, we have cannons, your argument is invalid' and suddenly everything was horrible.


Finally, just to add insult to injury, before the Chinese could really recover from the blows inflicted upon them in the 19th century, they went and caught a seriously hideous case of Communism and set the entire country back at least another half-century in the process.

So us modern westerners are used to China being a shadow of its former self, but that is very much not normal at all. And as we are seeing today, that diminished state was never going to last; China is just too populous and organized to remain weak for long.
 
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I already have a pretty general idea of what I want China to look like, though the details need to be worked out.

(...I'll look through and see if I need to reply to anything else tomorrow. Waaaaaayyyy too worn out from work today.)
 
Nah the Qing were SUPREMELY arrogant in their own superiority. They responded to the British diplomats in Latin of all languages, since that is the language of the Europeans after all.
I think the Latin thing is more due to the fact that they had a tradition of hiring jesuits to help with drafting treaties and negotiating with western powers, it also worked when they settled issues over the north boarder with Russia.

There is also the logistical issues of hiring a trustable and correct translator...
 
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I mean setting aside it was the language of the catholic church even after its decline of use after the middle ages it stll was until the end of the 17th century the language the majority of books and almost all diplomatic documents in Europe were still written in and being taught at least some Latin and making people familiar with Latin and classical greek works was apart of education in the west into the early, mid twentieth century in many parts of the west.
 
Hmmm...hopefully we see a Constantinople that destroys its version of Carthrago

Carthago delenda est or rather Tenochtitlan delanda est
 
Well, one of the factors in the Ming falling that let the Qing take over was the Little Ice Age causing a famine, which might very well be butterflied here - one of the theorized causes of the Little Ice Age was the depopulation of the Americas. If the inoculation provided by the Constantinopolitan presence reduces the die-off and Europeans get less of a massacre-inducing foothold, the Ming might hold on

I keep seeing this claim that Constantinople will inoculate the native population. I really don't see why that would be the case.

It seems far more likely to me that the native population will be decimated by disease just like in the OTL.

Perhaps with the deaths among Roman affiliated populations mitigated a bit by the aid of Roman medical knowledge.

But native polities on the Great Plains, the Midwest, and the East Coast of North America won't have those benefits and will likely be depopulated just as in the OTL.

It's not like the diseases care whether they were introduced by the merciless Spanish or the more friendly Romans.
 
I keep seeing this claim that Constantinople will inoculate the native population. I really don't see why that would be the case.

It seems far more likely to me that the native population will be decimated by disease just like in the OTL.

Perhaps with the deaths among Roman affiliated populations mitigated a bit by the aid of Roman medical knowledge.

But native polities on the Great Plains, the Midwest, and the East Coast of North America won't have those benefits and will likely be depopulated just as in the OTL.

It's not like the diseases care whether they were introduced by the merciless Spanish or the more friendly Romans.
Because with the apocalyptic plagues spreading from 1453 onward but European imperialism only starting mainland conquest circa 1520, this gives the natives almost 70 years in which to recover, rather than jumping directly from "apocalyptic plague" to "dealing with colonists and invaders" within a single generation.
 
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I would expect that Constantinople being a single 'point of entry' for the diseases as opposed to dozens of European contacts up and down the east coast will also slow the spread somewhat, which further increases survival odds.

But yeah, the big part is that the Native Americans will get a couple of generations to recover from the diseases that they didn't get in OTL. Those on the east coast are probably still screwt; but in OTL it took a good century or two before the Europeans really made their way beyond the east coast in NA, combined with the head start that is more than sufficient time for the more distant native polities to recover from most of the damage.
 
Because with the apocalyptic plagues spreading from 1453 onward but European imperialism only starting mainland conquest circa 1520, this gives the natives almost 70 years in which to recover, rather than jumping directly from "apocalyptic plague" to "dealing with colonists and invaders" within a single generation.

Oh, okay. That makes much more sense. It's just the comments were all phrased in a way that seemed to make the collapse not happen in the first place.

While this does make more sense, 70 years is probably insufficient to allow a full recovery. And the Great Plains and the Great Basin are likely to take much much longer to redevelop than other areas.

The main difference I see happening is in the Midwest/Ontario area, which will have a much longer period to redevelop. Might have interesting implications for the French vs British conflicts over the North American continent.
 
Oh, okay. That makes much more sense. It's just the comments were all phrased in a way that seemed to make the collapse not happen in the first place.

While this does make more sense, 70 years is probably insufficient to allow a full recovery. And the Great Plains and the Great Basin are likely to take much much longer to redevelop than other areas.

The main difference I see happening is in the Midwest/Ontario area, which will have a much longer period to redevelop. Might have interesting implications for the French vs British conflicts over the North American continent.
Oh yeah the diseases will still wreck them, but they'll be in a much better state overall than they were in OTL around the same time, which will have repercussions for the later European expansion across North America. Especially given how borderline some of the colonization attempts were, even a small improvement to Native capacity could spell doom for an alarming number of colonies as a result.
 
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