- Location
- A place
I just wanna see what happened to Rosemary .... Cause I don't want it hanging over my head
Project Prometheus (Original Setting Superhero Quest)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
She died.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Actually, with the note of the Horae Guard trying and failing to recruit Scarlet Maturity, do you think that happened before, during, or after his defeat of Apiary and the DU?
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
After some rereading and mulling it over, I think I'm very firmly on camp "Woman in Blue is an alternate-timeline/time traveling Nora". It explains why she's there next to Nora in the Stage just like Ellie was when she got her ambrosia dose, but without breaking each others' minds somehow. It explains why she straight-up calls herself Nora Kim in the Exceed Fill-In issue. It explains why in her memory she calls herself the mother of psychic technology (and mentioning names we don't know) despite that being what Nora did.
And it would provide a strong alternative for why Jair had that video of Uiara saying Nora was experimenting on the Leviathan, which Wolong confirmed as real and sincere, which Moon River was unable to say was false, and who Belle Sabreuse explicitly noted acted far differently from Socialite Butterfly's clones. Maybe Nora's tech did wake up the Leviathan. Just not our Nora. Woman-in-Blue did.
Regardless, the point is this: it seems likely that if 'Yemoja rallied the metahumans' then she's an alternate-universe Yazmin, one with the same powers - hydrokinesis, and the same personality and likability, given that she was able to rally the city against the Leviathan. Between that and Nora still being Valiant Silver, and them still being lovers, it's probably a very close timeline.
But unlike our timeline, Nora seems to have made different friends. Theodore, Oscar, Kyoko - whoever these are, they were close enough to Nora that they were able to get their hands on her psychic tech, and along with her they screwed things up. Perhaps they were on the same team as her, and she just didn't form Justice Unlimited or even NuGen.
Video-Yazmin notes that she was unable to get 'the others' to stop Nora, unlike our universe where Justice Unlimited successfully passed the vote to bench Nora (a vote passed out of concern for her, not out of concern of her doing a terrible experiment). This alternate Yazmin was unable to stop her. Perhaps Kyoko, Theodore and Oscar were far less good influences than Zixuan, Towarri, Rakeem, Eve and Rosemary were.
...Now, I know one of the questions you might be thinking - "but then who awoke the Leviathan in our reality?"
While it could be someone else (EXCEED shows that time travel is already on the table to some extent), the idea that seems most 'right' to me is that we're in a Worm sort of situation and the Leviathan exists in multiple universes simultaneously. Not an infinite amount, hopefully, because those kind of shenanigans get too cosmic and convoluted and they're difficult to follow in comic universes without ruining individual heroes' storylines, but probably at least two universes/timelines.
Woman-in-Blue awakens the Leviathan in all realities. Our Nora, who went into a different direction and whose psychic tech tapped into the Stage rather than the Leviathan (either due to timeline meddling or 'natural' timeline divergences), stops it.
This would also explain why Stockpile is so utterly convinced Nora did awaken the Leviathan. We know Joules took some of Nora's EXCEED armor, sure... But if we assume there's already alternate-universe shenanigans happening, then it's not a huge stretch at all to assume that Osanyin/AGL/Powers/the Philosophers also have other stuff from it, such as some of Alt!Nora's armor. One which actually taps into the Leviathan.
There's a few details here and there that still need a bit of polishing to fit with the other puzzle pieces we have, but I feel confident in the basic 'Woman in Blue is alt-Nora' theory.
And it would provide a strong alternative for why Jair had that video of Uiara saying Nora was experimenting on the Leviathan, which Wolong confirmed as real and sincere, which Moon River was unable to say was false, and who Belle Sabreuse explicitly noted acted far differently from Socialite Butterfly's clones. Maybe Nora's tech did wake up the Leviathan. Just not our Nora. Woman-in-Blue did.
'Yemoja' is the name of a major water spirit from the Yoruba religion (also worshiped in Brazil due to the Afro-American diaspora). Specifically she's an orisha, in the same category as Ọsanyin (who, incidentally, picked his metahuman name really well). Not too different from how Uiara and Yara are both the names of a Brazilian mythological water spirit - a nymph, siren or mermaid, depending on the version of the story.
Regardless, the point is this: it seems likely that if 'Yemoja rallied the metahumans' then she's an alternate-universe Yazmin, one with the same powers - hydrokinesis, and the same personality and likability, given that she was able to rally the city against the Leviathan. Between that and Nora still being Valiant Silver, and them still being lovers, it's probably a very close timeline.
But unlike our timeline, Nora seems to have made different friends. Theodore, Oscar, Kyoko - whoever these are, they were close enough to Nora that they were able to get their hands on her psychic tech, and along with her they screwed things up. Perhaps they were on the same team as her, and she just didn't form Justice Unlimited or even NuGen.
Video-Yazmin notes that she was unable to get 'the others' to stop Nora, unlike our universe where Justice Unlimited successfully passed the vote to bench Nora (a vote passed out of concern for her, not out of concern of her doing a terrible experiment). This alternate Yazmin was unable to stop her. Perhaps Kyoko, Theodore and Oscar were far less good influences than Zixuan, Towarri, Rakeem, Eve and Rosemary were.
...Now, I know one of the questions you might be thinking - "but then who awoke the Leviathan in our reality?"
While it could be someone else (EXCEED shows that time travel is already on the table to some extent), the idea that seems most 'right' to me is that we're in a Worm sort of situation and the Leviathan exists in multiple universes simultaneously. Not an infinite amount, hopefully, because those kind of shenanigans get too cosmic and convoluted and they're difficult to follow in comic universes without ruining individual heroes' storylines, but probably at least two universes/timelines.
Woman-in-Blue awakens the Leviathan in all realities. Our Nora, who went into a different direction and whose psychic tech tapped into the Stage rather than the Leviathan (either due to timeline meddling or 'natural' timeline divergences), stops it.
This would also explain why Stockpile is so utterly convinced Nora did awaken the Leviathan. We know Joules took some of Nora's EXCEED armor, sure... But if we assume there's already alternate-universe shenanigans happening, then it's not a huge stretch at all to assume that Osanyin/AGL/Powers/the Philosophers also have other stuff from it, such as some of Alt!Nora's armor. One which actually taps into the Leviathan.
He went into it not wanting to believe it, but he took his proof from the armor. Falsifying EXCEED to convince him would have been hard. But if they didn't have to falsify it at all, then convincing him would have been utterly trivial. It'd have been factual information presented under a false front.
There's a few details here and there that still need a bit of polishing to fit with the other puzzle pieces we have, but I feel confident in the basic 'Woman in Blue is alt-Nora' theory.
Last edited:
I very much agree with your thoughts on the Woman in Blue and the Leviathan! And I think you explained it fairly conclusively and thoroughly.
On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the Yazmin video/PREVAIL piece.
If we see the Woman in Blue as a parallel universe traveller… it seems like a pretty damn hard thing. That really isn't easy. That took a machine made by the inventor of psychic technology, and left her trapped in the Stage.
I'm doubtful that there's the level of connection necessary to bring data or videos from one universe to another.
Especially when we know our foes have some fairly powerful mind-control in a few different ways, it seems more likely that Yazmin… still exists in some way, and has been mind-controlled. (Hello, Fish?)
Interesting catch on the piece from PREVAIL, though. My guess is that Silvio saw the suit drawing power from some huge font of psychic energy, and (kinda reasonably) assumed that was the Leviathan, not knowing about the Stage. Not sure what the data would be though.
On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the Yazmin video/PREVAIL piece.
If we see the Woman in Blue as a parallel universe traveller… it seems like a pretty damn hard thing. That really isn't easy. That took a machine made by the inventor of psychic technology, and left her trapped in the Stage.
I'm doubtful that there's the level of connection necessary to bring data or videos from one universe to another.
Especially when we know our foes have some fairly powerful mind-control in a few different ways, it seems more likely that Yazmin… still exists in some way, and has been mind-controlled. (Hello, Fish?)
Interesting catch on the piece from PREVAIL, though. My guess is that Silvio saw the suit drawing power from some huge font of psychic energy, and (kinda reasonably) assumed that was the Leviathan, not knowing about the Stage. Not sure what the data would be though.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
He is kind of right, just in a roundabout way. The suit draws power from the Stage, and the Stage has the Leviathan as one of the loudest voices.
- Location
- in the trash
Letting preconceived notions guide your interpretations of events is a very dangerous pitfall to stumble when analyzing something. If you've already decided you want your theory to be true you're going to misintepret the evidence and miss the obvious.
There are multiple glaring holes here. For example, we were just given an idea of who Theodore is (a likely contemporary of Valiant Red) and the timeline doesn't add up for them to even have been alive at the same time as Nora.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I had some idea for more debate tactics. Yes, I'm aware, we've been told that Ronin's intel is out of date.
But it still makes sense that, if nothing else, Silvio and Hawk are going to be there. One's the 'leader', the other is the charming one.
What if Henry takes the opening statement, and expresses genuine admiration for PREVAIL? Nora never implemented short-range teleportation into it, that's a genuine innovation, etc etc. What else did you add to it when making your modifications?
This can go two ways. One, the sincere approval and admiration causes him to drop his guard, and we learn more about what it can do.
Or, he gets mad that we're trying to butter him up, (probably caused by a Mental Manipulation ping that Ellie can keep an eye on) and he looks weird and aggro for reacting angrily for an innocent, curious question.
Another idea was to have Maddie go for the gut and ask why they're so focused on Monarch when Le Petit Prince is out, with a small group of metahumans under his belt, actively tried to recruit her, and are hiding in the shadows, taking advantage of Monarch's obvious chaos. Call him too laser focused on one obvious target instead of keeping their eyes open for the others.
But it still makes sense that, if nothing else, Silvio and Hawk are going to be there. One's the 'leader', the other is the charming one.
What if Henry takes the opening statement, and expresses genuine admiration for PREVAIL? Nora never implemented short-range teleportation into it, that's a genuine innovation, etc etc. What else did you add to it when making your modifications?
This can go two ways. One, the sincere approval and admiration causes him to drop his guard, and we learn more about what it can do.
Or, he gets mad that we're trying to butter him up, (probably caused by a Mental Manipulation ping that Ellie can keep an eye on) and he looks weird and aggro for reacting angrily for an innocent, curious question.
Another idea was to have Maddie go for the gut and ask why they're so focused on Monarch when Le Petit Prince is out, with a small group of metahumans under his belt, actively tried to recruit her, and are hiding in the shadows, taking advantage of Monarch's obvious chaos. Call him too laser focused on one obvious target instead of keeping their eyes open for the others.
- Location
- A place
...... Hate to ask but is it possible to throw some. Doubts on Uiara's judgment?
Nora's suspensiona nd it is repeatably stated she wasn't the best leader or operator.
Also direct the question to her father about why they were estranged and ask what is wrong with the.
Nora's suspensiona nd it is repeatably stated she wasn't the best leader or operator.
Also direct the question to her father about why they were estranged and ask what is wrong with the.
What do you feel the glaring holes are?
I think that things like not!Uiara are fairly strong evidence, and more to pin inference on than the minimal description we get of a possible Fill-in…
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm well aware I could be wrong here in several respects, but I tried thinking about it with an open mind and approaching the weird elements we've seen and have been unable to resolve. If anything, I was more of the theory that video-Yazmin was a juiced up Socialite Butterfly clone before I reread Prevail.
I'm more confident in some parts of this theory than others.
I'm very confident in Woman in Blue being an alternate Nora - possibly a time-traveling one too, given that she has had a connection with our Nora since before the Catch-13-22 incident, her comment on how no one can see the future, and Mona being dragged into the Stage for that fight.
I'm pretty confident in video-Yazmin being from the same timeline as alt-Nora, but there is absolutely some room for her to be in a similar position to Nora - after all, Apiary hid her DNA sample from LL. But three separate IC sources have told us it's real or real-ish, and Bitterman has been clear before on how this isn't a story where our dead comrades will somehow be brought back to life.
I'm entirely confident on Silvio being fed factual yet misleading information, but only a bit confident in said misleading information being alt-Nora's armor. There is some room for ambiguity.
I'm kinda confident on there being alternate universe/bad future timeline refugees based on the aforementioned 'no one can see the future' thing, and assuming that the Yazmin video is also really Yazmin, just not ours.
The Leviathan being in multiple dimensions at once is me speculating on nothing but pure gut instinct. It could be completely full of shit. There is no evidence supporting this.
Again, this is all a somewhat convoluted theory. But we have a lot of unanswered questions and it is tempting to think that answering one might answer others.
- Location
- in the trash
Just having to invoke the idea of alternate timelines is already a reach that should make people skeptical. Like, say we believe this idea that the Uiara in the video was from an alternate timeline. How the fuck did Crusade get their hands on a video from an alternate timeline, then?
If you actually want to put your theory to yhe test you should be looking for ways to disprove it.
- Location
- in the trash
That's a lot of things you're confident in that really don't have evidence to support them/could easily have alternate explanations and are likely skewing your read on things. You've already decided what you want the answer to be and it's warping your analysis.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm going to keep an eye on that theory, I think it has merit, but I'll keep my options open and hopefully our next Fill-In, this debate, Yara and Belle, Mona's Scarlet Maturity meeting, hell, I'd take Opale's accounting giving us a little extra info.
I get this as a principle, but no matter what this is all speculation based on shreds of evidence. We've got a few sentences in a few chapters, the only way to prove or disprove will be by paying attention in chapters to come.
Which sure, we should do, but we theorize here and know with the posts we have!
This isn't science, it's theology!
Sure, I don't agree with this idea!
But I definitely agree with the Woman in Blue being alt!Nora. I was wondering if you saw any glaring holes in that.
- Location
- in the trash
The easiest explanation for the video is that it was genuinely just a really bad case of miscommunication. VS was making preparations before the Movement to stop it, Uiara misinterpreted it as it being something malign, neither of them were on speaking terms by that point.
Parsimony applies. When the alternate explanation requires us to at minimum accept the existence of alternate timelines, as well as the ability to send electronic data across timelines, I'm not buying it.
Parsimony applies. When the alternate explanation requires us to at minimum accept the existence of alternate timelines, as well as the ability to send electronic data across timelines, I'm not buying it.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We created a stable time loop already with our first Fill-In!
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
It was possible once due to a very specific interaction of powers, but we don't really have any evidence saying that it's replicable by someone else or that it can lead to the creation of alternate timelines instead of just a timeloop.
Let's not give our enemies an ability they haven't demonstrated. If they had the ability to grab things from alternate timelines, then they have better ways of utilizing it than just grabbing a video.
- Location
- in the trash
Yes, so we know time travel is possible, but everything occurred in the psychic background of the Stage and it may have been enabled by the Catch-22 warping reality. That suggests the Stage itself might be disconnected from causality/regular time in some way.
The possibility for time travel and stable time loops in itself does not indicate the existence of alternate timelines. Being able to send videos across timelines is even more of a reach and would indicate an alarming level of capability on the part of our enemies.
Totally valid on the video. But I find it quite hard to find other more parsimonious theories to explain the memory we saw from the Woman in Blue. I'm really curious if anyone has thoughts on that memory or alternative ideas I'm missing!
- Location
- in the trash
We appeared to get memory bleed-over from 3 to 5 different viewpoints, so we're possibly dealing with some sort of psychic gestalt.
Last edited:
daedalus725
Kell of Kells, godking of Planet X
- Location
- Daedalus crater, The moon
Now it could be arc 1 of Arcane season 2 makeing me feel this way could be they simply are content to only strike down from on high should it threaten their gilded city
Plus while i haven't watched a Gundam but I do know of Spacism
Well imo there's about 4 or so things any superhero story can just pull in with out explaining it to much this story has already used 2
StarSingerBlue
Zenryoku Zenkai !
- Location
- The City of Lights
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I feel sorry for Belle Sabreuse.
The common trait seen to all of them is that they all strong psychic powers (Valkyrie and the unknown individual fighting King and Valkyrie are both confirmed to have them, the unnamed scientist likely has them too)
Yes, the psychic gestalt of Nora(s)!
In a chapter where VS and VG are spilling memories like they're water, it feels peculiar (perhaps even… not parsimonious?) to think that the memory VS definitely thinks is from the Woman in Blue is from some other source?
This is a separate topic, but I thought those early scenes of conflict with King/Valkyrie were pretty strongly suggestive of Nora being used as akin to a targeting computer? Not being thoughts of some other entity outside the room?
(Which those italicized bits… are.)
Last edited: