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Nations of Steel and Sabre
- Thread starter Theravis
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- OOC Fantasy Alt. History
THatWhichWillBe
The Squiddly One
- Location
- In The Darkened Deep
- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
Go read a practical guide to evil.
THatWhichWillBe
The Squiddly One
- Location
- In The Darkened Deep
This world runs on belief.
And everyone in the world believes heroes defeat villains. It's ingrained into our culture, and always has been.
A Hero is the most dangerous thing in the universe to a Villain. A dumb Hero is just the prelude to a smarter one.
But that depends on who you view as the hero, doesn't it?
- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
So does the universe of a practical guide to evil (kinda). And that world is biased against villains winning. Really bias.
- Location
- Massholistan
No? I mean, I can play a character that has actual flaws and motivations that make them a villain (Maybe they're petty and cruel, maybe they subscribe to an ideology that drives them to perform actions people would classify as evil. People are very rarely the villain of their own story, but that doesn't meant they aren't the villains of other peoples stories), and that is totally irrespective of whether I not I think that character is going to succeed in their goals.
It's exactly the same as playing a Heroic character in a gritty, darkness-infested story like 40k where thousands of Heroes die every day just to keep horrific engine of the Imperium running because it's better than the alternative.
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I believe a giant doom laser kills pretty much any hero.
THatWhichWillBe
The Squiddly One
- Location
- In The Darkened Deep
It's very hard to be seen as a hero when you're building a giant golden pyramid to suppress your people.
It was written by an author who wanted to show villains winning, so......
That's not a Villain then. That's a Human, trying to live their life as best they can, who just ends up acting like a villain. A capital-V Villain tries to be the worst person he could be.
Heroes are notoriously doom laser resistant.
- Location
- Massholistan
Any definition of Villain that excludes Darth Vader, Sauron and Voldemort is not a very good definition
- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
Actually, I want to critique this.
From a meta perspective magic is based on belief. I'll concede that. But magic isn't everything, and from an even more meta persepective this world runs on Thevaris.
There is nothing about this world saying the "good guys" are going to win. Nothing.
For one, what is a hero? Is Gilgamesh a hero, a tyrant that ruled a city and who the gods created someone to stop him oppressing the people of his city? What about Hercules, a violent man who killed his entire family? Are Byronic heroes heroes under you're definition? Is Granny Wetherwax a hero? Vetinari? Hari Seldon? Leto Atrides II?
And what makes a villain? Is Artemis Fowl a villain? Armatige Case?
ChineseDrone
Totally depraved
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/They
Lord Protector Feric Jagger shall surely cleanse this world of villany and bring great heroism back to the realms of man!
THatWhichWillBe
The Squiddly One
- Location
- In The Darkened Deep
He wasn't a villain by the end.
He was a literal demon. He sure as fuck tried to be the worst person possible.
Again, he sure as fuck tried to be as evil as possible.
..... Now we're getting into a snarl of discussion I am not willing to dive into.
"The world says heroes always win because belief"
"No it doesn't and that's subjective anyways"
"I don't want to get into this"
"No it doesn't and that's subjective anyways"
"I don't want to get into this"
- Location
- Massholistan
Dude you realize all three of those characters fall into the examples I gave (well, except for Vader in RotJ, but before that he's literally an archetype and the fact he was redeemed by his love for his son doesn't retroactively not make him a villain in the first place).
Sauron was obsessed with Order and Control and was corrupted by Morgoth to align himself with Morgoth's might to overthrow God. Voldemort was an isolated and abused child, with sociopathic and violent tendencies brought on by his upbringing and also literal magic who used a bigoted and genocidal ideology to get revenge on a father he saw as abandoning him.
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THatWhichWillBe
The Squiddly One
- Location
- In The Darkened Deep
I was bantering
It's the difference between jokingly saying life is meaningless and arguing about the worthiness of nihilism as a philosophy.
But it proves his core motivations were not being evil
Yeah, neither of those really say "well they weren't reaaaaally trying to be evil", it just explains why they wanted to be evil.
But I'm not going to argue literary character motivations. I have school for that.
ChineseDrone
Totally depraved
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/They
Uh... define "evil"
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- Varies
THatWhichWillBe
The Squiddly One
- Location
- In The Darkened Deep
This is why I'm not getting into it.
It devolves into a philosophical discussion that at the end of the day is pointless.
However, hot damn that burn
- Location
- Massholistan
Sauron wanted Control, and Voldemort wanted Power. This is like, incredibly clear and in fact are some of the central themes of the stories. Under your conception any character that isn't literally "Baby McBabyEater who eats babies because he wants to eat babies because it makes people cry and he gets off on that" isn't a villain.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
Everybody except Naglfar, Mexico, and Wales.
Although I will allow for some nuance vis a vis "Evil that I shall purge now" & "Evil whose purgation must wait until a later date".
Azecreth
Giant Monster All Out Attack
- Location
- United States of America
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hey, I gave you covert assistance. But fine, I see how it is.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
.....that may have gotten lost amidst the whole "Wade flakes out for two turns" Chinese goat roping.
K, I'll shift France to the "I'm almost certain they're Evil but I have made errors in judgement before" Column.
THatWhichWillBe
The Squiddly One
- Location
- In The Darkened Deep