- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Gandhi: Peace be with you.STOP! LOOKING! INTO! MY! NOTES!
Merkels Operation Walküre
- Thread starter Tyr Anazasi
- Start date
- Timeline Post-1900 Supernatural
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- Tags
- isot (isekai) germany
- Status
Darksoul2142
SUMMONER OF DARK DRAGON
- Location
- Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
Nein!
OUR WORDS ARE BACKED BY NUCLEAR WEAPONS!
proceeds to nuke all tiles
On a serious note. Will the Indian subcontinent still be partitioned into a certain Hindu majority nation and a Muslim majority nation? I am thinking of this due to the historically poor treatment of Muslims in India after 1947.
- Location
- Reynoldsville, Pa
Jesus, the allied body count at the end of this war is going to be horrific. The sooner Roosevelt dies, the quicker this war can be brought to an end. At least in Europe anyway, I can't see America wanting to give up on bringing Japan to heel after Pearl Harbor and everything else they did in the Pacific.
Post war is going to be really interesting for both sides. Stalin is still going to be a paranoid jackass, Britain will be even more broke than OTL, China is going to continue the civil war, lord only knows who might win now, and America will effectively be isolated in the America's, since Germany will own Europe, and the Pacific, assuming America doesn't win, will be owned by Japan.
Post war is going to be really interesting for both sides. Stalin is still going to be a paranoid jackass, Britain will be even more broke than OTL, China is going to continue the civil war, lord only knows who might win now, and America will effectively be isolated in the America's, since Germany will own Europe, and the Pacific, assuming America doesn't win, will be owned by Japan.
- Location
- The great frozen north
Poor. American doctrine/strategy calls for avoiding 'decisive battle'-style engagements that risk losing a major chunk of the fleet's experienced manpower (and they've lost much of that already). And they're still churning out Essex and Midway-class carriers, and submarines and escort carriers, like mad.
Japan might be able to win A major victory against the USA, and they may even be able to defend MacArthur's precious Philippines. But they are not going to be able to deal a "decisive battle" that outright cripples the USN.
Somewhat related to the India-question, I'm curious whether or not Germany is (or will be) making any efforts to try and subvert UK/US colonies (and whatever the Soviet equivalent was called), for example by training and arming insurgents. Even if they continue the production of some WW2-era weapons out of necessity, I'd expect they'll still have plenty of obsolete small arms and the like they could provide.
The UK and Soviets are in the process of negotiating a peace, so it's unlikely they'll take any actions there, but while the US technically doesn't have any colonies at the moment (with the Phillipines still being under Japanese occupation), Latin american countries often get kinda treated that way, so it might not be hard to find groups there quite eager to act against US interests.
And in the long run, there's probably going to be some sort of three-sided Cold War, which rather lends itself to that sort of thing.
The UK and Soviets are in the process of negotiating a peace, so it's unlikely they'll take any actions there, but while the US technically doesn't have any colonies at the moment (with the Phillipines still being under Japanese occupation), Latin american countries often get kinda treated that way, so it might not be hard to find groups there quite eager to act against US interests.
And in the long run, there's probably going to be some sort of three-sided Cold War, which rather lends itself to that sort of thing.
Darksoul2142
SUMMONER OF DARK DRAGON
- Location
- Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
I wonder who will the USA hate more; the godless red communists or the nation that thoroughly humiliated them militarily.
I really hope the Middle East does not devolve into the clusterfuck of the OTL.
I really hope the Middle East does not devolve into the clusterfuck of the OTL.
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India in 1944 was still partially made from independent states ruled by princes,who only akcnowledged
king of england as their Emperor.Considering how "good" was effect of india Independence in 1947/cyvil war and millions of dead/, maybe better if those princes remained in power.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Some points are close to my plans, some points aren't. I won't comment this discussion.
The Germans/Germany seems like an easy answer; with the communists one could at least argue that they're merely "misguided", and could be "re-educated" into being proper members of society, while Germans are culturally/genetically predisposed towards authoritarianism, militarism, evil, and all that garbage that some people even nowadays still believe.
On the other hand, just because something seems like it'd be the easy/most likely answer, doesn't necessarily mean that it's what'll actually happen.
To give an example; after the Great War, it might seem like an easy bet that the Germans would blame the Italians and Poles for their betrayal of the Central Powers and the loss of the war. After all, the Italians were originally a member of the Triple Alliance, but then sat things out and later even joined the enemy in order to acquire A-H territory. And the Poles originally had help from the Germans and Austro-Hungarians to liberate their country from Russian yoke, only to turn around and stab them in the back at the peace table, demanding to get German and Austro-Hungarian lands as well.
Instead the Nazis blamed the Jews, because.... reasons?
Point being, public moods and political currents aren't necessarily always straightforward and logical (or at least logical-seeming).
Yeah, the US as a whole might decide that they really want to hate those Germans. Or there might be backlash against the Democratic Party, given how both times the US went to war against Germany it was under a Democrat President. Or there might be a resurgence of German culture amongst those US citizens with German heritage (a pretty substantial group), who decide that since Germany clearly isn't a loser-nation, they shouldn't let themselves get pushed around anymore. Or there could be backlash against the United Kingdom for dragging the US into another war with Germany for its own gains. Or maybe many US citizens will decide that it's clearly the Black's fault, who weren't patriotic enough and betrayed the US because... reasons?
Point being, the US Americans don't really have to be any more straightforward and (seemingly) logical when it comes to looking for scapegoats and assigning blame than the Germans were.
As such @Tyr Anazasi could easily take this into a number of different directions, depending on where he wants to take the story.
Why not wish for the moon while you're at it.
More seriously, it's not exactly an easy issue to solve, any more than the Balkans, or the various in Europe post-WW2. Two things that I could potentially see helping, though;
- Preventing the House of Saud from exporting their extremist version of Islam. Either by ensuring that the House of Saud suffers plenty of "accidents" and "suicides", or that they get as little oil-containing land as possible, and with it as few funds as possible.
- Developing and supporting as many alternative energy sources as possible. Nuclear power, renewable energy, bio-gas and -fuel power plants and cars, electric and fuel cell cars and other vehicles, and so on, and so forth and disseminate them throughout the world. Environmental concerns aside, if there are plenty of alternatives to oil available and accessible, oil itself should become less important as a strategic resource, meaning the major powers should hopefully feel less inclined towards meddling in the Middle East in order to secure their supply.
Not exactly wonder-cures, but together they might help to alleviate things at least a bit.
Though that doesn't even touch the biggest potential in the region, in the form of the Palestine Mandate and the possible existence of Israel.
- Location
- Asia
Um...the same could apply against Germany, after German missile strikes on ammo dumps in New York started fires that killed thousands of people. It could be said that it's worse than what Japan did. Japan only sucker-punched the USA and sank a fleet at harbor. Germany struck a city - one of America's oldest, biggest, richest, and most populous - and set it on fire.
Add in the annihilation of the US Navy in the Atlantic, the destruction of the USAAF in the British Isles and the Mediterranean, and the surrender of the American forces taking part in Operation Overlord...and you could say Germany's hurt the USA more than Japan ever did.
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- Location
- Reynoldsville, Pa
Nazi Germany at least made a formal declaration of war beforehand, Japan just launched a sneak attack against America. Future leadership will realize that Germany can't be beat, but the Japanese Empire is a different story.
- Location
- Asia
Agreed, but that leads to another problem. Specifically, Germany's 21st Century mentality - in particular with regard to Human Rights - abhors America's planned methods to bring Japan to heel, i.e. terror bombing and a starvation campaign. IIRC, an argument was made before that given Japan's war crimes they don't deserve to have their Human Rights considered, but apparently German 21st Century attitudes don't match American ones, i.e. "in times of war, the law falls silent". On the contrary, 21st Century Germany expects better of themselves and everyone else.
In short, if Japan is to be brought to heel, then it must be done right, i.e. the victors shouldn't have to stoop to their enemies' level to win. And if the Americans still insist on winning by any means necessary...
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- Location
- Reynoldsville, Pa
This is still Imperial Japan, we know how fanatical they were in fighting across the Pacific. If the island hopping campaign is complete, the only remaining options are to blockade Japan or to launch a full scale invasion. Both would kill tens of millions of Japanese people, with the former taking longer to do.
- Location
- Asia
Agreed, but both are unacceptable to Germany's 21st Century sensibilities. So they'd rather find a different solution, which seems to be a negotiated settlement in the short-term, and moderating Japan by association and influence in the long-term.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
To be honest, as a 21st century German, my preferred solution to the problem of Imperial Japan would be "let the US deal with them as they see fit, within reason".
Not rolling over and surrendering to the Allies who insist on continuing the war is just common sense and self preservation, and I'm rather certain all but a tiny minority of Germans would agree with it in the scenario as presented in this story. But to ally with Imperial Japan under any but the most desperate circumstances? That would have me howling for my own government's blood. It's morally bankrupt to the first degree.
Not to make light of the damage suffered by Japan at the hands of the US, but it pales compared to what they themselves inflicted on the rest of Asia and China in particular.
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- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful
Well, at first, why do some believe, that Japan can't change, either? In 1944 Japan was clearly losing the war and the wish to end the war started to grow. Don't get me wrong, Japan did a series of atrocities. But I am still the opinion, that FDR did provoke the war, like he tried to do so with Germany. In 1941 US warships attacked Uboats on the high seas. One of the attacking destroyers, USS Reuben James, was even sunk herself. FDR ordered this to get his declaration of war. @mko95 could tell you more about the history of Japan. Which starts in this regards even in 1854. Japan had learned the hard way, that they had to become a power of their own- or a colony. They decided for the first. This fear of becoming a colony was also the core of the radicalism of the 1930's and 40's. Don't get me wrong. What they did were horrible crimes. But OTOH FDR tried to dictate them his conditions. I think in real negotiations the Japanese would have relented. But this wasn't wanted by FDR. The Japanese could only choose between humiliation and US dictate or war.
Anyway, as I already posted, this Japan is changing herself as well. An alliance with the Tojo-led Japan is impossible. But an alliance with a Japan willing to change? Especially as the USA, Britain and the USSR are "slightly hostile" against Germany?
Anyway, as I already posted, this Japan is changing herself as well. An alliance with the Tojo-led Japan is impossible. But an alliance with a Japan willing to change? Especially as the USA, Britain and the USSR are "slightly hostile" against Germany?
That's the actual problem: unless you break the will of US to continue the war, if you leave them to win in the Pacific, they will return to the European front. And the only way to achieve this goal is to let them fail in the Pacific theatre as well, since a counter- invasion is out of question. As long as the USA don't swallow their pride and sue for peace - even an easy peace, just return to the status quo ante and some trade concessions, will require a major pride-swallowing - there will be a continuing danger that one day, maybe in 1947, 1948 etc a few B-36 Peacemakers with a nuclear payload manage to sneak through the radar picket becoming negligent due to uneventful times in between.
(...of course there would be retaliation but it won't help the victims).
And for this reason a victory of USA over Imperial Japan is a very bad turn of things for the ISOTed Germany.
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Personally i am very interested to see how the new Germany is dealing with partisan efforts in occupied European nations. Because unless Merkel has seriously crippled freedom of press, the sort of draconic measures needed to supress the likes of the French and Polish resistances will be utterly unacceptable to the German public. Especially since the uptime troops with actual experience winning "hearts and minds" in Afghanistan were probably all needed on the frontlines, so partisan supression would have by necessity be left to DT troops. Who also won't really have too much experience with it since afaik a lot of the supression efforts were left to the SS, who in this timeline were disgraced and used for the Kyiv campaign. This has all the signs of turning into a massive clusterfuck.
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
Speaking of other countries, Canada is in the mother of all tight spots right now. On one hand, they are a dominion of the United Kingdom who are working out a peace agreement with Germany. On the other hand, they are right next door to the USA, who are not exactly interested in stopping the war.
So prime minister King is probably lying awake at night worrying about how their southern neighbor might react if Canada goes along with this peace agreement.
So prime minister King is probably lying awake at night worrying about how their southern neighbor might react if Canada goes along with this peace agreement.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Well, the French partisans were mostly captured around TTL D-Day, as in OTL. In Yougoslavia the death of Tito reduced partisan activity greatly. In Greece the situation is tense, but somehow reduced, when the Germans transferred the Dodecanese inofficially back to a Greek administration (as in OTL) AND warned about the Greek Civil War after ww2. There is a great mistrust between the "White" and "Red" groups, partly infighting.
So there was "only" the USSR left. And here Partisan activity was greatly exaggerated. Still, there is substantial resistance and fighting them was bloody. Currently (1944) the Partisans are not protected by the laws of warfare. So there aren't any massacres against civilians, but there is only a relative small number of prisoners. Many partisans aren't given pardon. Like they do, BTW. So the Bundeswehr has a blind eye in this regard and will later justify some actions with the same actions of Partisans.
Organized Partisan armies are excluded and will be recognized, if they fight with a kind of uniform and under the rules of law. The Polish Home Army for example.
There are no shootings of hostages any more. However, the courts will come back to the old point of view, in which the ratio of 10:1 was acceptable for old cases.
I don't want to make the Germans the total angels. They aren't. And they will face some more struggles...
So there was "only" the USSR left. And here Partisan activity was greatly exaggerated. Still, there is substantial resistance and fighting them was bloody. Currently (1944) the Partisans are not protected by the laws of warfare. So there aren't any massacres against civilians, but there is only a relative small number of prisoners. Many partisans aren't given pardon. Like they do, BTW. So the Bundeswehr has a blind eye in this regard and will later justify some actions with the same actions of Partisans.
Organized Partisan armies are excluded and will be recognized, if they fight with a kind of uniform and under the rules of law. The Polish Home Army for example.
There are no shootings of hostages any more. However, the courts will come back to the old point of view, in which the ratio of 10:1 was acceptable for old cases.
I don't want to make the Germans the total angels. They aren't. And they will face some more struggles...
- Location
- Reynoldsville, Pa
The Imperial Japanese army repeatedly committed atrocities across Asia during their campaign of conquest, which is what drew the ire of America and forced us to embargo them. That same army also refused initial orders to surrender and had to be given a direct order from the Emperor himself in order to finally stand down. Hell, there was a damn near successful coup attempt from high ranking Imperial officers who still wanted to continue the fight after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In the Atlantic, we extended the Pan American security zone to protect our ships after Uboats had already opened fire on them. Even today, most of Asia hates Japan for what happened in WW2, this scenario will make that hatred even worse. Any scenario where Japan remains a major power in the Pacific after the war has ended, will not be a positive one. This is also outright ignoring they are occupying Indonesia, Indochina, coastal China, and Korea, which they won't willingly withdraw from.
- Location
- Rotting in port
This causal relation is false: the Japanese did commit atrocities in asia, but the USA embargo was part of their own expansionist campaign since late 19th Century.
Once the USA had "Manifest Destiny'd" all the way to the Pacific and taking any more of Mexico was more trouble than worth bothering with (not to mention, full of Mexicans), the USA went on to "Go Further West", forcing the isolationist Japan into unequal treaties (leading to the overthrow of the Shogunate and a the realization that either Japan modernized and became a colonial power or they'd be reduced to someone else's colony themselves), conquered Hawaii under a threadbare excuse and invaded the Philippines (committing plenty of massacres and atrocities themselves).
Japan was allied with the USA in WWI, but despite their many contributions against the German Pacific fleet and taking their colonies there, the USA blocked almost all Japanese claims and then screwed them thoroughly in the Washington Naval Treaty. All this, plus the increasingly hostile American policies fuelled Japan's militarism and finally pushed them into the Axis' arms.
Times changed, tactics changed, but the Imperial American dream of turning the Pacific into their own pond is even today an ongoing project.
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- Status