Do we want our second in command to be able to coordinate movements? I don't think Aramil will be able to see from above the forest canopy. And he has no messengers to send orders to more than 1 unit at a time. And he may be busy fighting a Chaos Giant / Manticore / whatever when new tactical developments happen.

I am partial to the Sigmarite Ostlander guy. Institutional choice, does not offend any Elves, and will be the commander of the spearmen, probably placed front-and-center.
Also, former Knight of Sigmar's Blood so good Martial capabilities.

Reviewing the matter:
It is also traditional for the commander to name his second, in case you are incapacitated or otherwise unavailable. But such choices are always subject to scrutiny, and will influence what others see in you. It is an honour, but one that could be easily used to undermine you, and those not chosen may take it as an insult.
IMO the choice is between
[] [2IC] Prince Aramil Amakiir
-Extremely qualified
-Might use the authority to do his own thing
-You don't know how he feels about you
and
[] [2IC] Colonel Reinhardt Holsgart of the Northern Sons
-Qualified
-State Army Officer, nobody could argue against picking him
-Sigmarite zealot
-Holds sensitive political views

I'd go for
[X] [2IC] Colonel Reinhardt Holsgart of the Northern Sons
 
Do we want our second in command to be able to coordinate movements? I don't think Aramil will be able to see from above the forest canopy. And he has no messengers to send orders to more than 1 unit at a time. And he may be busy fighting a Chaos Giant / Manticore / whatever when new tactical developments happen.

I am partial to the Sigmarite Ostlander guy. Institutional choice, does not offend any Elves, and will be the commander of the spearmen, probably placed front-and-center.
Also, former Knight of Sigmar's Blood so good Martial capabilities.

Reviewing the matter:

IMO the choice is between

and


I'd go for
[X] [2IC] Colonel Reinhardt Holsgart of the Northern Sons
I asked Blackout earlier. Aramil hails from Chrace, a land that's mostly forests. He's fully capable of navigating his griffon inside a forest as well.

Anyway I'm not too concerned about command duty keeping him too busy for monster slaying. For one, he's really good at it according to the attribute sheet that we have. Him taking time to engage in command isn't a waste. For another, the second in command position is noted to be a designation for someone to act as our replacement in case we're incapacitated or unavailable. So long as we remain conscious and alive then the position is probably more honorary then not.

Which is perhaps something of the point. Honoring Aramil may help us dealing with someone with a noted ego, particularly in case that he might actually be feeling slighted over us not coming to meet him so far. Similarly as someone with a noted ego he seems likely to take being passed up for the position the worst.
 
He's also probably the most mobile and easiest to spot member of our team though, on account of riding a griffon. Remember, this is what Warhammer griffons are like in terms of size:
You don't want a commander your runners can't catch with a standard bearer who'll eat the ones who try!

Competent, supported and available trumps expert, solo and busy fighting. Combat in woods is chaotic and needs leadership providing coordination.

Tying our most mobile, hardest hitter to the job is a waste of smackface. As is tying down our best skirmishers to it.

As the count's man Holgaur has the status to assume command smoothly if Fanriel goes down which is really important in those exact circumstances. More important than brilliance so long as he's good enough and all indications are he
is.
 
You don't want a commander your runners can't catch with a standard bearer who'll eat the ones who try!

Competent, supported and available trumps expert, solo and busy fighting. Combat in woods is chaotic and needs leadership providing coordination.

Tying our most mobile, hardest hitter to the job is a waste of smackface. As is tying down our best skirmishers to it.

As the count's man Holgaur has the status to assume command smoothly if Fanriel goes down which is really important in those exact circumstances. More important than brilliance so long as he's good enough and all indications are he
is.

I'm not going to argue too hard against Holsgart. He would probably be my second choice after Aramil. I just think Aramil is preferable. I'm also not too worried about Aramil's griffon trying to eat anyone either. Griffons are highly intelligent and Ulthuani griffons are particularly so. Eating our runners is the sort of concern we'd need from a hippogryph rather then a griffon. I'm not overly concerned about runners being able to catch Aramil either, when one of the main reasons we took him rather then Joachim is that he can manuver on the ground inside a forest with his griffon. As is if our troops can't catch Aramil at a given point in time then they should come to us, since we're still going to be in command of the operation for as long as we aren't comatose or otherwise unavailble.

I also think that in the case he does end up having to command in our stead Holsgart may have some difficulty doing so with certain troops. Difficulty with Valahuir, because Valahuir is a mage, difficulty with Aramil, since Aramil is prideful, and difficulty with the ogres, since he can't physically intimidate them the way we or Aramil could.
 
At any rate we also need to make up a battle plan for our advance. Barring someone suggesting something that seems better, I think I'll just go with the default plan:
[X] [PLAN] Plan Default
-[X] The army will march through the hill-lands, with Ogres at the head of the column, the Halberdiers behind them, and the Spearmen in last. The elves will move around the column flexibly to fend off skirmishers and ambushes.
-[X] Once the forest is reached the army will form into battle formation and advance towards the Beast-Path entrance. Ogres at the center, Irongulls at center-left, De Jonge Bokken at far left, Sea Wolves at center-right and Northern Sons at far right. Scarloc's Archers scout ahead while the rest stay behind the force in reserve and to cover against being outflanked.
-[X] Once the Beast-Path entrance is reached, Vahanuir and the Butchers will destroy the corrupted grove with magic. Failing that, or should they be unavailable, the Ogres will attempt to destroy it with brute force. As a last resort, any available forces will attempt to start a fire with any means at their disposal and destroy the grove that way.
[X] [2IC] Prince Aramil Amakiir

As something that was developed by a martial 30 military prodigy I doubt there would be that much we could improve on it.
 
[X] [2IC] Colonel Reinhardt Holsgart of the Northern Sons

If he's killing monsters, he's not commanding.

This is a role to appoint someone as our second though, in case we're unavailable for answers. Not only is he more qualified for the job if put in command however, in the case that we actually do become unavailable and somebody else needs to give commands, how well can we expect the noted to be incredibly pridful Aramil to accept commands from Holsgart, or the ogres and Valahuir for that matter. The former since Holsgart isn't as physically imposing as Aramil, and the later because Valahuir is a witch.

Furthermore that Aramil will be in the frontlines doesn't necesarily mean that he'll be less available to provide command. Everyone of our officers is expected to engage in the fighting. Heck, Alexander the Great would actively engage in the fighting during his battles.
 
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This is a role to appoint someone as our second though, in case we're unavailable for answers. Not only is he more qualified for the job if put in command however, in the case that we actually do become unavailable and somebody else needs to give commands, how well can we expect the noted to be incredibly pridful Aramil to accept commands from Holsgart, or the ogres and Valahuir for that matter. The former since Holsgart isn't as physically imposing as Aramil, and the later because Valahuir is a witch.

If us, the Commander, is in the thick of things, I would expect the dedicated monster killer to be already hip deep in gore. Holsgart's contribution to everything is at least not predicated on personally stabbing things.

Plus, Valahuir is a priest, not a witch, and both must be willing to work with humans to be any sort of mercenary.
 
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Plus, Valahuir is a priest, not a witch, and both must be willing to work with humans to be any sort of mercenary.

We had a -15 to our roll with Holsgart that was literally titled "Witch" and unlike Valahuir we actually are a priest. As is the issue is less Valahuir being willing to work with Holsgart, and more Holsgart hating on Valahuir due to being a noted zealot. Why would the penalty for Holsgart interacting with Valahuir be any smaller then the one he had with us?
 
Also another thing to note is that a commander who also tends to be hip deep in gore is not necessarily a bad thing in the context we're dealing with. Commanders were often expected to fight from the front as a way of shoring up morale and setting an example for their troops. Alexander the Great is famous for how often he personally participated in the battles he waged and historians even attribute some of his victories to the morale boosting effects that his participation in battle had on his troops, in contrast to Darius who would often avoid the frontlines.

Historical examples suggest that our troops seeing the person who gave them their commands proceeding to then get stuck in and start kicking ass may well make them function better in battle, not worse.

And as discussed earlier, morale boosting is something we could use a lot of right now.
 
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We had a -15 to our roll with Holsgart that was literally titled "Witch" and unlike Valahuir we actually are a priest. As is the issue is less Valahuir being willing to work with Holsgart, and more Holsgart hating on Valahuir due to being a noted zealot. Why would the penalty for Holsgart interacting with Valahuir be any smaller then the one he had with us?

It wouldn't be Valahuir attempting intricate diplomacy, though. It would be Holsgart giving him his marching orders, and his position as a Captain in a host that makes explicit usage of alien sorcerers is enough to make me trust his professionalism.

I don't expect them to ever want to interact with each other outside of work, but the Count clearly trusts them to work.

The flip side is that Aramil would also suffer the same penalty regarding Scarloc, any other elf we snub, and possibly all the humans he'll be intensely condescending too- as we have negative indication he has the Colonist trait to ease relations- and will still probably be hip deep in monster gore.

I don't think that's necessarily a deal breaker. I trust him to be professional anyways, just as I trust the Sigmarite- but it's not as if the astoundingly arrogant alien is a popular candidate either.

Alexander the Great is famous for how often he personally participated in the battles he waged and historians even attribute some of his victories to the morale boosting effects that his participation in battle had on his troops, in contrast to Darius who would often avoid the frontlines.

Those commanders had the privilege of picking and choosing when they would enter the fight, specifically to create that effect. That is not a privilege a dedicated monster hunter could have, because they will be immediately pointed and loosed at the nearest monsters on contact, which does not leave much time at all for all the other elements of command.
 
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Holsgart is the only one that has a connection to the authority of the whole campaign, the Elector Count. He's part of the institution, so to speak.
And that's why I prefer him to Helsner of the Westerland Halberdiers. The latter is literally "just a guy".
As for Valahuir: because we order Holsgart to include him in the battle plans + we are advancing in a way where Valahuir can shoot / fling spells as necessary.

Anyway, the plan. The default one is too based on the traditional battle line IMO. The approach part is ok, but we should be more of a square in the forest.

Before the battle plan, one last question: do we fear Ungor archers on the flanks? If yes, spears go there. If not, halberds go there and the spears are divided in Northern Sons front, De Jonge Bokken back
 
It wouldn't be Valahuir attempting intricate diplomacy, though. It would be Holsgart giving him his marching orders, and his position as a Captain in a host that makes explicit usage of alien sorcerers is enough to make me trust his professionalism.

I don't expect them to ever want to interact with each other outside of work, but the Count clearly trusts them to work.

The flip side is that Aramil would also suffer the same penalty regarding Scarloc, any other elf we snub, and possibly all the humans he'll be intensely condescending too- as we have negative indication he has the Colonist trait to ease relations- and will still probably be hip deep in monster gore.

I don't think that's necessarily a deal breaker. I trust him to be professional anyways, just as I trust the Sigmarite- but it's not as if the astoundingly arrogant alien is a popular candidate either.

I mean we just saw Holsgart offend Scarloc with his religious sensibilities this last update. I'm not sure Aramil would be worse in that regard.

As is, we do have that "semi canon" omake of Aramil's. His pride seems to express itself more in being offended by people trying to order him around and tell him what to do then snubbing people he considers lesser, as seen by how he was basically acting in insubordination to the count, but getting along well with those human hunters he saved.

And again, I will point out with regards to the main concern people have been giving that as someone who will be busy at the frontline that he'll be too busy to bring commands, that there's substantial historical example that would point towards a commander being one to get deep into the thick of things in battle actually improves their ability to command their troops, as such actions can be seen as encouraging for troop morale.
 
Holsgart is the only one that has a connection to the authority of the whole campaign, the Elector Count. He's part of the institution, so to speak.
And that's why I prefer him to Helsner of the Westerland Halberdiers. The latter is literally "just a guy".
As for Valahuir: because we order Holsgart to include him in the battle plans + we are advancing in a way where Valahuir can shoot / fling spells as necessary.

Anyway, the plan. The default one is too based on the traditional battle line IMO. The approach part is ok, but we should be more of a square in the forest.

Before the battle plan, one last question: do we fear Ungor archers on the flanks? If yes, spears go there. If not, halberds go there and the spears are divided in Northern Sons front, De Jonge Bokken back
The Westlanders have their complements of swordsmen and handgunners (and our own wood elven and Ostlander archers for screening) to deal with pressure from archers and keeping them on the flanks helps to minimise their casualties. High morale, high cohesion human Ostlanders and ogre Ostlanders front and centre, I say!

(Also, for what it's worth, I do want to emphasise Azyr spells as a good way to mitigate the harpies via Roiling Skies. Aramil knows standard Asur signals, which should help us coordinate to minimise the impact on him and Deathclaw.)
 
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Those commanders had the privilege of picking and choosing when they would enter the fight, specifically to create that effect. That is not a privilege a dedicated monster hunter could have, because they will be immediately pointed and loosed at the nearest monsters on contact, which does not leave much time at all for all the other elements of command.
From Aramil's original DOW:
Aramil is a fiercely independent individual, who chafes to obey orders and barely tolerates the authority of others, he feels constrained by the duties of the elven nobility and the expectations of society, preferring to spend time hunting in the wilds.
And from the side story omake about him:

Two days earlier, a patrol of State Troops had disappeared, devoured by the woods without leaving a trace. A group of Ostland Huntsmen had been sent to investigate the disappearance, but they had not returned to the camp the night before to report. So, instead of risking bleeding dry his army little by little by continuing to send search parties, the Elector-Count dispatched Aramil and Stormclaw to find out what had really happened.

Some would think that the Chracian noble would consider such a mission as beneath him, but they are wrong.

For Aramil, every wound, large or small, inflicted on the Forces of Darkness is a triumph. And he couldn't think of a person more suited for such a quest than himself.

Closing his eyes, he could easily imagine that he was in another place and in another time. In a different mountain range, far beyond the sea, riding alongside his brothers and hunting some horrid beast that threatened the commoners of their lands. Joking, laughing and making bets on who would draw the first blood from the creature. Returning at the end of the day to the nearest village dragging the carcass of the monster behind them, the villagers exulting as they passed, a great banquet in their honor held at sunset where everyone was happy and joyful while the beer flowed like a river.

But those times were long gone, and a screech from Stormclaw brought Aramil back to the present.

Below them, in a clearing, were the remains of a skirmish. Several bodies wearing the uniform of the Ostland hunters lay in the grass, it was possible to see that they had been mangled and mutilated with great ferocity and brutality even from that distance.

Stormclaw landed lightly in the clearing, and in the blink of an eye Aramil had already dismounted and was examining the remains and the ground for clues. It didn't take long to notice the many footprints that crossed the clearing, footprints with which Aramil was very familiar.

Greenskin, a very large group of Greenskins judging by the number of footprints.

The hunter shook his head sadly, the Ostlanders must have been outnumbered five to one, they had not stood a chance.

Examining the scene, Aramil noticed a series of more recent tracks heading northeast, deeper into the wilds. Aramil assumed that to be the direction the Greenskins had moved after winning the skirmish. But there were not only tracks of Orcs and Goblins in the undergrowth, among them it was possible to see the traces of sturdy boots worn by human feet.

Aramil hesitated, undecided. The Elector-Count had not explicitly forbidden him to engage enemies if he found them, but he had made it clear that the priority of the mission was to report the nature of the threat present in that part of the mountains. And judging by the footprints, the Greenskins' numbers were large, probably too great to be defeated even by him.

However, Aramil could not in good conscience leave the poor humans in the clutches of the Orcs, where it awaited them slavery or a grisly death for the entertainment of the green brutes. If he returned to the camp to get reinforcements, it might be too late to save them.

And that was if the Elector-Count believed that the operation was important enough to send an armed force, what were after all a handful of lost men to someone who commanded armies of thousands?

No, Aramil was not just a servant of the Elector-Count or a common blade for hire.

He fought the enemies of all civilized peoples because it was the right thing to do, not because it was his duty or because he was ordered to. Since he had left Ulthuan, he had sworn that he would not allow others to choose his path.

------------------------------

By the time they reached the Elector-Count's camp, the two had already agreed to exchange beers around a campfire later that evening, so that Aramil could share stories of his adventures with Henrick and the other troops.

Aramil knew he would be scolded by the Count for his rash actions, but he also knew he was too important as an asset to be seriously punished or fired. But watching Henrick reunite with his comrades-in-arms, two of whom appeared to be younger versions of him and whom Aramil would later find out were his younger brother and son, he knew in his heart that he had made the right choice.

I'm pretty sure that if anyone is going to be choosing his own engagements its going to be the, quote: "fiercly independent individual" who "barely tolerates the authority of others" and whom has been shown to take pretty lightly even the count himself, let alone us.
 
how well can we expect the noted to be incredibly pridful Aramil to accept commands from Holsgart, or the ogres and Valahuir for that matter
His pride seems to express itself more in being offended by people trying to order him around and tell him what to do then snubbing people he considers lesser
He might not like it, but as evidenced by the fact he's a mercenary at all, he'll evidently obey orders from those he considers beneath him.
 
[X] [2IC] Wilbrand Helsner of the Irongulls As second in command. To keep the humans together and is non offensive.

We have to think a bit more strategically I think.
Give Scarloc command of an independent group, that will act like special forces of elf's, give him the SeaGuard as an act of trust and Aramil, who will be technically under but be allowed some more independence.

Have Aramil scout ahead for the mysterious monster and what else he can find. Before or after the monster, try to get the harpy's to follow him into a trap so that scarloc's archers can reduce their numbers or if he can kill them.

Have scarloc and his archers with the SeaGuard go early to again scout and reduce the number of enemies to the corrupted court by being sneaky and sabotaging what they can without getting caught or trapped. If nothing more can be done have all the elf's under him try to do hit and run tactics, on the beastmen. Have him try to trick the army of beastmen think that an attack will happen on the opposite side that Fanriel and the rest of the mercenaries will come from as a flanking attack.

If any one else has some thing to add is more then welcome.
 
He might not like it, but as evidenced by the fact he's a mercenary at all, he'll evidently obey orders from those he considers beneath him.
If the omake we had is an indication this seems to express itself via him acting out as independently he feels he can manage without getting seriously censured.

Consequently shine's argument about how Aramil will not be getting to pick and choose his engagements is a bit silly. If anything Aramil seems likely to end up doing more of that then any of our other subordinates, save the Butchers.
 
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[X] [PLAN] Plan Default
-[X] The army will march through the hill-lands, with Ogres at the head of the column, the Halberdiers behind them, and the Spearmen in last. The elves will move around the column flexibly to fend off skirmishers and ambushes.
-[X] Once the forest is reached the army will form into battle formation and advance towards the Beast-Path entrance. Ogres at the center, Irongulls at center-left, De Jonge Bokken at far left, Sea Wolves at center-right and Northern Sons at far right. Scarloc's Archers scout ahead while the rest stay behind the force in reserve and to cover against being outflanked.
-[X] Once the Beast-Path entrance is reached, Vahanuir and the Butchers will destroy the corrupted grove with magic. Failing that, or should they be unavailable, the Ogres will attempt to destroy it with brute force. As a last resort, any available forces will attempt to start a fire with any means at their disposal and destroy the grove that way.
[X] [2IC] Prince Aramil Amakiir
 
If the omake we had is an indication this seems to express itself via him acting out as independently he feels he can manage without getting seriously censured.

Consequently shine's argument about how Aramil will not be getting to pick and choose his engagements is a bit silly. If anything he seems likely to end up doing more of that then any of our other subordinates, save the Butchers.
In that case, putting him in charge isn't a great idea, because he won't be where he's expected to be, so people won't be able to find him.
 
Aramil is a Chracian monster hunter, the most likely thing for him to do against orders is to go fight big monsters (for the glory, you see). Which is what we have him here for in the first place. So I'm less concerned about him going off book than I might be in other circumstances...as long as we don't also have him needing to give orders.

And him being in the thick of things is not an obstacle in being a commander. The obstacle is him being in the thick of things alone, away from other people he can send as messengers to relay his orders, and away from where any messengers can reach him. That's more problematic.
 
And as we've discussed before we could really, really use morale boosts for our troops right now. Historical example suggests that a commander who gets stuck in the thick of things and is a great fighter could actually help with that. Troops like it when the guy giving them orders is also risking himself alongside them while kicking ass and taking names.

In that case, putting him in charge isn't a great idea, because he won't be where he's expected to be, so people won't be able to find him.

He's literally stated to be one of the two most competent commanders on the list. I imagine the bigger issue is that he might end up giving commands of his own to the troops independent of our own. But given that he's noted to also be extremely competent as a commander that's not necessarily a bad thing if he spots an opportunity that we don't.
 
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