Overall, pretty decent rolls. A shame for the Maw ogres, as long as they cause issues only to the enemy, it should be fine.

As for the choice for second, I would say Scarloc, Vahanuir or Holsgart. Scarloc because he would do the job even if he hates us, Vahanuir because he would know how to interact with humans, Holsgart because there would be little issues. The reason why I would avoid Aramil is exactly because he is the strongest fighter in the region. Sure, he can kick the ass of anyone who contest him, but we don't want him commanding, we want him killing whatever big beastie there is out there so we don't have to worry about it.

As for marching orders, until we reach the forest there will be little importance for that. We have loads of infantry to watch over all sides and we have a flying griffon. We are far too overkill for the wolf riders of last time now. Put Vahanuir and his men in the middle along to be protected from all sides, have Aramil play watchman in the sky, maybe send Scarloc forward, and that would be it for any threat on the road.

The difficulty will be fighting as an unified force within the forest because the trees will be an issue for any coordination. We have four infantry units and the ogre fighters to cover the more squishy units like Vahanuir. My first idea would be making a plan as if we ignore the terrain and place units as if they were on a flat empty plain. Put the Northern Sons unit in front of us, the Seawolves and Irongulls on the Northern Sons's sides with some space between them to maneuver. Behind, you put the De Jonge Bokken in case of ambush, and in the middle you keep the elite troops. Here that would mean the ogre fighters, the Maw ogres, Vahanuir and his shooters, the Lightfangs, our Sea Guards and us. Scarloc, his waywatchers and Aramil are exempt from that since they will act on their own. Scarloc's job will be serve as an ambush spotter and assassinate some high value targets when they are distracted with our troops, while Aramil is simply here to slaughter the biggest, scariest monster he can find and go through the list fast enough we avoid heavy casualties. In case of monstruous infantry like minotaurs, we would send the ogre fighters we kept in reserve for counter charge. In case of magical assault, we will have to rely on Vahanuir, the Maw ogres and us. If there is more big monsters that Aramil can deal with at once, Vahanuir can shoot them down with his men, or at worst we can handle it ourselves. The Lightfangs and our archers can support any shaky positions from the middle.

This plan relies a lot on having a big center that can support our flanks, but it might be difficult to execute that plan in a forest, and all the human forces will be on the frontlines to soak casualties before we send our heavies, with only Scarloc as an alarm system.

Let's hope the Butchers won't be too difficult to deal with.
 
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Right, in terms of planning... I think that the basic plan for advancing to the forest already suits our needs pretty well. As for the forest itself, though, Horium's right about needing to bear in mind that the Westerlanders are casualty-averse, and we're dealing with Beastmen, an enemy focused on ambushes and charges to inflict morale shocks. I think we can mitigate both problems at once by adding a little depth.

As a basic sketch, I think we put the Ostlanders, humans and ogres, in a first line. I'm pleasantly surprised and encouraged at what we've seen of the defiant attitude of both the rank and file and the commander of the Northern Sons, all of which speaks well for their morale, while their shared religion should make them similarly cohesive; being Ostlanders, they should also welcome working with ogres. Between them, they will hopefully make for a resilient force that can weather a Beastman charge (or what's left of it after Grisla's lot have, presumably, punched through them as they promised to).

Behind them, we form a second line from the Westlanders. Their role will be to take apart the Beastmen that the Ostlanders have fixed, riddling them with lead and pulling them down with their halberds. They'll still be involved in some heavy fighting but won't be bearing its brunt as often as the Ostlanders.

I'm not quite as sure about the other units, so have some tentative thoughts:
  • I'm half-tempted to suggest we use De Jonge Bokken to support the first line - their goedendags make for an excellent counter-punch to the Northern Sons' parry - but then, the whole of the second line is effectively already that counter-punch and I really want to maintain the morale-boosting effect we've already seen them have on their fellow Westlanders.
  • I wouldn't mind using the Fireclaws as a reserve - Valahuir knows what he's doing and would surely love the assignment of 'go to where the most heavily armoured and toughest enemies are and have your troops show them just how effective your craftsmanship is'.
  • Fanriel and the Lightfangs should probably help to watch the flanks and add weight and morale support to the first line. Worth also considering prioritising Azyr spells to take advantage of Roiling Skies, which could wreak havoc on those harpies and keep Aramil unburdened to focus on more important matters.
  • Not sure how best to take advantage of Axel Soch's eagerness - thoughts welcome on that point.
Edit: Seems Ando got in ahead of me! A few similar ideas, though, which is good to see.
 
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Overall, pretty decent rolls. A shame for the Maw ogres, as long as they cause issues only to the enemy, it should be fine.

As for the choice for second, I would say Scarloc, Vahanuir or Holsgart. Scarloc because he would do the job even if he hates us, Vahanuir because he would know how to interact with humans, Holsgart because there would be little issues. The reason why I would avoid Aramil is exactly because he is the strongest fighter in the region. Sure, he can kick the ass of anyone who contest him, but we don't want him commanding, we want him killing whatever big beastie there is out there so we don't have to worry about it.

As for marching orders, until we reach the forest there will be little importance for that. We have loads of infantry to watch over all sides and we have a flying griffon. We are far too overkill for the wolf riders of last time now. Put Vahanuir and his men in the middle along to be protected from all sides, have Aramil play watchman in the sky, maybe send Scarloc forward, and that would be it for any threat on the road.

The difficulty will be fighting as an unified force within the forest because the trees will be an issue for any coordination. We have four infantry units and the ogre fighters to cover the more squishy units like Vahanuir. My first idea would be making a plan as if we ignore the terrain and place units as if they were on a flat empty plain. Put the Northern Sons unit in front of us, the Seawolves and Irongulls on the Northern Sons's sides with some space between them to maneuver. Behind, you put the De Jonge Bokken in case of ambush, and in the middle you keep the elite troops. Here that would mean the ogre fighters, the Maw ogres, Vahanuir and his shooters, the Lightfangs, our Sea Guards and us. Scarloc, his waywatchers and Aramil are exempt from that since they will act on their own. Scarloc's job will be serve as an ambush spotter and assassinate some high value targets when they are distracted with our troops, while Aramil is simply to slaughter towards the biggest, scariest monster he can find and go through the list fast enough we avoid heavy casualties. In case of monstruous infantry like minotaurs, we would send the ogre fighters we kept in reserve for counter charge. In case of magical assault, we will have to rely on Vahanuir, the Maw ogres and us. If there is more big monsters that Aramil can deal with at once, Vahanuir can shoot them down with his men, or at worst we can handle it ourselves. The Lightfangs and our archers can support any shaky positions from the middle.

This plan relies a lot on having a big center that can support our flanks, but it might be difficult to execute that plan in a forest, and all the human forces will be on the frontlines to soak casualties before we send our heavies, with only Scarloc as an alarm system.

Let's hope the Butchers won't be too difficult to deal with.
My issue with Scarloc is that as someone that explicitly hates us even if he will be doing his job in order to purge the grove that he'll also be trying to get us deliberately killed at the same time, or at least will end up caring very little if his actions could result in our death for whatever reason.
 
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I am torn between using the ogre infantry as our anvil, front and centre, or to have them in the reserve as a sort of counter-charge cavalry.

Actually better it be the centre. So that even if they are whipped into frenzy by the Butchers, they don't charge through our front ranks.

Aramil should be the reserve until we see something sufficiently nasty to throw him at. Perhaps have him keep watch overhead in the meantime, to keep the harpies from having the complete air superiority?

Scarloc and his force should probably start the combat as skirmishers, retreat behind the pikes and be on ranged suppression duty until the melee turns chaotic and then go elite hunting.
 
To refine my second in command thoughts a little bit better, I think there's one big first question to ask which is: how well do we want our second to be able to command mages? Personally I trust most of our mages to operate with their own initiative except for Vahanuir and the butchers, Vahanuir can largely be conceptualized as a "unusually mobile artillery" which I WOULD trust a someone who doesn't know how to otherwise command mages to command, and the butchers... are unfortunately probably a problem for everyone anyway.

Under that framework, Holsgart is completely unobjectionable For The Mission Itself and his downsides are largely Not Our Problem.

However, if we DON'T trust our mages to operate under their own initiative... it probably needs to be Scarloc or Aramil. Scarloc has higher upside in that he's probably the best at fighting This Specific Battle if it weren't for the troop composition, but also is the most likely to just straight up sabotage us, while Aramil is more Generically Good and while it's possible he might seek to overstep command, that's probably more likely to be for his own glory than actively working against us or the mission.

Technically, Fanriel's been stripped of her princesshood but I'm not sure if Aramil even gives a Skaven's ass about politics in Ulthuan anymore.
My understanding is she hasn't actually. She just... can't actually do any of the ruling from exile. That's why she COULD'VE ripped the copper out of the walls for startup funds before she actually left ulthuan and one of the Swordmasters was grousing that we didn't do that and thus had to 'slum it' in a mere high quality human inn instead of a fancy elf inn. She can however still operate with the authority of a loremaster, so that's the title that's getting used 99% of the time.
 
  • Not sure how best to take advantage of Axel Soch's eagerness - thoughts welcome on that point.
Edit: Seems Ando got in ahead of me! A few similar ideas, though, which is good to see.
Well Axel wants to leave a good impression on his men, and what we've been told that his men want is to take as few casualties as possible. So put his dudes in as safe a place as possible in our formation, so that when the dust settles and the dead are counted, he can brag to his men about how he managed to schmooze us into putting them in a good place and how thanks to that so many of them will be coming back home.
 
Wilbrand Helsner of the Irongulls
-Qualified
-Safe, inoffensive choice

I think he is the best choice, simply because most of the army, troopers, mercenaries? Is human and a safe and inoffensive choice. It's probably obvious that the elf's will take it as a slight or an insult. But I think that some self preservation would at least have them not be too hard to command, although Aramil might just fuck off and fly away. But I think his pride will force him to stay. Also I don't want any further conflicting problems with cohesion, the The Cult of the Great Maw will already be a big problem and we need as few problems as possible at this point.
 
My understanding is she hasn't actually. She just... can't actually do any of the ruling from exile. That's why she COULD'VE ripped the copper out of the walls for startup funds before she actually left ulthuan and one of the Swordmasters was grousing that we didn't do that and thus had to 'slum it' in a mere high quality human inn instead of a fancy elf inn. She can however still operate with the authority of a loremaster, so that's the title that's getting used 99% of the time.
She still technically holds the title (and thus can be addressed as Princess) but lacks literally all of the rights. It's not that she can't rule from exile, she can't rule at all, the right has been stripped from her.

Less "rip copper out of the walls" and more "tap into the billions in wealth her House has". Notably, I think she could still do so even if her title had been stripped, because the House's wealth and status aren't linked, and Fanriel remains head of House Drangleic. If she had a reliable courier, she could send back and get some of the House's money sent to her, but she refused to take any out of shame, and won't change that decision.
 
My understanding is she hasn't actually. She just... can't actually do any of the ruling from exile.
She hasn't, IIRC. She's been exiled, but that's a whole different thing. She is still legally a princess.
A princess in name only. House Drangleic is defunct after her exile, and I wouldn't be surprised if other Houses in Yveresse are already planning how to carve up Cairn Thel's lands in preparation for Fanriel's mom's death. At this point in her life, Fanriel calling herself princess would blow hot air and not much else.
 
At this point in her life, Fanriel calling herself princess would blow hot air and not much else.
So in short, Fanriel is The Vegeta of Ulthuan. She is a princess but it's in name only while she is a formidable Loremaster in her own right even though she gets jobbed like what happened with the Angry Wolf Priest.

The only differences are that she is tall and the High Elves are still around.
 
A princess in name only. House Drangleic is defunct after her exile, and I wouldn't be surprised if other Houses in Yveresse are already planning how to carve up Cairn Thel's lands in preparation for Fanriel's mom's death. At this point in her life, Fanriel calling herself princess would blow hot air and not much else.

I mean, by that logic Aramil is no longer a prince either, but culturally speaking it seems like the Asur still very much view even exiled royalty (by either decree or default) as still being royalty. And even if they don't in general, Aramil kinda has to or his own status drops.
 
A princess in name only. House Drangleic is defunct after her exile, and I wouldn't be surprised if other Houses in Yveresse are already planning how to carve up Cairn Thel's lands in preparation for Fanriel's mom's death. At this point in her life, Fanriel calling herself princess would blow hot air and not much else.
After her mother dies, Moranion (or Eltharion if Moranion dies first) assigns the fief and responsibilities to a different House. It doesn't get carved up.

Also, she can't call herself Princess, because one of the rights that got stripped was her right to demand people address her by title. Which calling herself Princess does inherently. Others can still choose to call her that, but she can't demand it of anyone anymore.
 
Eh. At the end of the day, while Aramil is a wanted criminal, he's also just a thief. It's hard to imagine someone willing to follow us balking that much at Aramil, giving the far greater damage our own crimes have caused, even if we aren't a wanted criminal like him, not unless they're someone really, really into legalisms like a priest of Asuryan.
Aramil isn't "just a thief". He had a long-standing rivalry with another Prince over the ownership of a legendary magical weapon, and when Finubar ruled against him, instead of giving it up he took the weapon and fled Ulthuan.

Fanriel committed a crime and was punished, and as far as the law is concerned the matter is closed, even if some think the punishment wasn't harsh enough. Aramil disobeyed the Phoenix King and is in continued defiance of his edicts, actively evading his punishment. The two situations are not really comparable under Asur cultural norms.

By the way @Blackout do our own Aqshy magics, particulary the elementals, not have enough firepower to destroy the grove, seeing as we aren't mentioned by the name the way Vahanuir and the Butchers are?
Fanriel is not confident in her own ability to destroy the grove in a timely manner, and thus her personal contributions are mostly folded into the last part.

Technically, Fanriel's been stripped of her princesshood but I'm not sure if Aramil even gives a Skaven's ass about politics in Ulthuan anymore.
Fanriel is technically still a Princess, she's just lost all of the privileges associated with that title.

She doesn't go around calling herself a Princess to humans because that would invite further questions about what the fuck she's doing running a small-scale mercenary company in the ass end of nowhere, and she doesn't go around calling herself a Princess to other elves because she can't compel from them the respect that is due to a Princess, so it's easier and less awkward to just call herself a Loremaster, since that is a title that she retains in full.

Personally I trust most of our mages to operate with their own initiative except for Vahanuir and the butchers
Aside from yourself, Vahanuir and the Butchers are your only spellcasters.
 
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Scarloc would get us killed, Aramil is best as our champion, choosing any Elf brutally snubs the others...
So it's either Colonel Reinhardt Holsgart of the Northern Sons, or Wilbrand Helsner of the 1st halberdiers as the safe choice.
Still tempted to nominate Aramil, though.

Should we put Butchers and Ogres close, or not? We risk losing entirely the control over that part of the army if we do.

Idea for a battle plan:

Forward scouts:
Scarloc's Archers: Glade Lord Scarloc the Wanderer, 50 Asrai Waywatchers

They fall back behind the frontlines when it's melee time.
Front left:
The Cult of the Great Maw
Slaughtermaster Grisla
Butcher Brulk
Butcher Grubnar
Butcher Morak
20 Mawguard
Front center:

12th Ostland Spearmen 'The Northern Sons'
500 Ostland Sigmarite Spearmen
60 Ostland Sigmarite Archers
60 Ostland Sigmarite Archers
Front right:

3rd Ostland Auxiliary Company
1 'Captain' Krag
150 Ostland Ogres
The Left:

The Irongulls
300 Westerlander Halberdiers
80 Westerlander Handgunners
90 Westerlander Swordsmen
Command centre, that shoots targets and goes to reinforce places as needed:

The Lightfangs: Loremaster Fanriel, 10 Swordmasters of Hoeth, 20 Lothern Sea Guard

Prince Aramil Amakiir w/ 1 Ulthuani Griffon

The Fireclaws of Vaul:
Mage-Smith Valahuir Aunrith, 2 Asur Sharpshooters, 20 Asur Marksmen, 50 Human Spearmen
The Right:

The Seawolves
250 Westerlander Halberdiers
100 Westerlander Handgunners
125 Westerlander Swordsmen
The rearguard

De Jonge Bokken
200 Westerlander Goedendag Spearmen
100 Westerlander Crossbowmen

Notice that the Cult of the Great Maw is isolated between the forces that are a bit more impervious to their brutality: the Ostlander spearmen at the front, and Helsner's 1st Westerland Halberdiers on the left (i.e. the halberdiers led by a more experienced captain, and that have not recently lost their leader).
And not immediately next to the Ogres: they may just make them crazy or take away command from us.

This way the center contains the greatest concentration of ranged troops: Valahuir, us, the crossbowmen, plus the hangunners from our wings.

The tactical flexibility of De Jonge Bokken seems cool, and the crossbows are closer to the center in front of their spears so it's good. The only problem is that we may want halberds as a rearguard, in case we are getting a charge by Minotaurs that way. But we don't have 4 halberds anyway
 
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Fanriel does not think the Butchers would respect any orders she gives them about where in the formation they should stand if they wanted to be elsewhere.
Basically, they are horrifically barbaric disruptors and assholes. Good to know, lol.
So I guess we can ignore them.
Frontline that advances with Ogres (at the sides, like impromptu big swordsmen?) + Spearmen. 2 halberdiers means the columns at the sides that can pivot. Our buddy spears as the rearguard, since halberds would be kinda wasted. All ranges units in the centre. Fanriel and Vanahuir too, as they can go to a point with magical problems.
And the savage Ogre barbarians/ Big Eaters start at the centre... even if I would prefer for them to start from a side that has troops with decent morale/discipline.
 
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I like that plan. It basically has rampaging ogres on both wings where they can engage without us ordering things, which should funnel the chaff to the spearmen while screening from the dangerous stuff. We've got the casualty averse unit just keeping the butchers from getting swarmed and the ranged covered.

I don't think even the butchers are going to make a big deal out of "you get front flanks. You know the job." If it comes with the implicit 'we will stay out of your way', but we should be prepared for her to want to split the butchers and the regular ogers differently, but as long as it's just balancing those assets to better protect and leverage the spellcasters I don't think we should contest it.
 
Can't the humans assume that Fanriel is a case of A Royal Who Actually Does Something trope and they go about their business especially when there are various mercenaries with noble backgrounds or something?
They might, but the big question would be why Fanriel doesn't have the resources of a Princess, and why the other Asur don't treat her with the respect due to high nobility.

The wealth of the elves is legendary, so why is a Princess haggling over border tolls or salaries for new recruits or contract rewards? Why do the other elves give her dirty looks instead of bowing and scraping before her?
 
Basically, they are horrifically barbaric disruptors and assholes. Good to know, lol.
So I guess we can ignore them.
Frontline that advances with Ogres (at the sides, like impromptu big swordsmen?) + Spearmen. 2 halberdiers means the columns at the sides that can pivot. Our buddy spears as the rearguard, since halberds would be kinda wasted. All ranges units in the centre. Fanriel and Vanahuir too, as they can go to a point with magical problems.
And the savage Ogre barbarians/ Big Eaters start at the centre... even if I would prefer for them to start from a side that has troops with decent morale/discipline.
Yeah, honestly, considering it further some variation on a hollow square may well be ideal here, as you've suggested. We know we're plausibly going to take on enemies from every side, so we should prepare to take on enemies on every side. (That said, I'd recommend we let the crossbows and handgunners operate in their usual fashion, alongside the infantry supporting and supported by them, and only retreat into the square as necessary. The handgunners need clear line of sight regardless and the woods make anything other than direct shooting problematic for the crossbows - no arcing bolts over people's heads here.)

As for the Butchers, I would note Grisla's concluding line: "And if yer plan's as strong as yer nerves, maybe—maybe—we'll leave enough of the enemy fer the humies to clean up." This strongly suggests that they're going to act as a vanguard whatever else we decide (letting, in their eyes, the rest of the army pick up their scraps). We don't really have any choice but to let them and at least it'll distract and disorder the Beastmen in front of the formation and reduce the pressure put on it.
 
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The nice part about the nastier beastmen being much taller than humans is that direct fire becomes easier in proportion to how much it is needed.
 
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