Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Just wanted to point out, it was specifically stated that WP of Ulric aren't really going to be as useful in a mostly-mercenary force compared to if it was mostly Ostlanders.
Mercenary Mage Quest: Asur Dogs of War in Warhammer Fantasy
- Thread starter Blackout
- Start date
- Fantasy
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
I do think we should take the Black Guard with us. The Beastmen are going to have numerous terror bombs among their forces via their forest spirits and Chaos Spawn, which are going to hit the morale of our troops hard, made even worse if we're taking the butchers with us. A high morale elite infantry unit like the Black Guard is probably the best we can do here short of the Dwarfs, whom are problematic to take due to the racial animus.
The wood elves who've just scouted the forest are a top pick if we think we can work with them. I'm not too worried about goblin harassment - if a foraging party can get through with a disciplined march an assault force certainly can. The chaos spawn and surprise monsters are the main threat. If the ogre priests are the best counter for that then a force that can work with them and keep them on task should be our core.
That probably rules out Brettonians. Other ogres will have their morale boosted rather than lowered by Butchers and I'd suggest that Ostland ogres will be more reliable than mercs.
Hugo Fielck can provide reliable magic and we want to build a relationship with him since the elementalists represent a long term source of spells.
We have a lot of ranged options and beastmen don't. We want to take advantage of that but the heavy hitters that will take down heavier enemies are slow to reload and forest will cut down everyone's effective range so we're talking single volley then make way for melee fighters unless we stop and build a fortification.
I don't think a fortification and slow grind is a good offensive option - sure they'll keep attacking it and dying but with an open beast path they won't run out of bodies and meanwhile nasties can be leaving the forest in other directions, plus it gives time for the greenskins to cook something up. The foraging party got there and back in a day so an assault off the march should be doable. That said we do want to construct a field fortification as a rally point if things go badly and as a place to rest and recover after the battle rather than trying a night march while tired and battered. If we have the ogre labourers and a holding force split off at today's worksite they can have something defensible set up by the time we can get the assault force to the target through the woods, let alone back again.
That probably rules out Brettonians. Other ogres will have their morale boosted rather than lowered by Butchers and I'd suggest that Ostland ogres will be more reliable than mercs.
Hugo Fielck can provide reliable magic and we want to build a relationship with him since the elementalists represent a long term source of spells.
We have a lot of ranged options and beastmen don't. We want to take advantage of that but the heavy hitters that will take down heavier enemies are slow to reload and forest will cut down everyone's effective range so we're talking single volley then make way for melee fighters unless we stop and build a fortification.
I don't think a fortification and slow grind is a good offensive option - sure they'll keep attacking it and dying but with an open beast path they won't run out of bodies and meanwhile nasties can be leaving the forest in other directions, plus it gives time for the greenskins to cook something up. The foraging party got there and back in a day so an assault off the march should be doable. That said we do want to construct a field fortification as a rally point if things go badly and as a place to rest and recover after the battle rather than trying a night march while tired and battered. If we have the ogre labourers and a holding force split off at today's worksite they can have something defensible set up by the time we can get the assault force to the target through the woods, let alone back again.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This ignores the interpersonal reality that the Count here may be reluctant or even entirely unwilling to give command of his own people to a mercenary. I'd prefer to aim for regulars for the army core, sure, but I think requesting too many of them is a good way to risk getting the whole plan shot down by our employer.
He can do insta-walls, since he's the one who's teaching us that trick, which isn't nothing, but like I said I can be talked out of him.
I can see replacing the crossbows...I'm less convinced by the suggested replacements, though. Hmmmm. We're definitely already at saturation for mages on that plan.
The hope is that, in numbers, the spearmen will be at least half the force. Might need a note there. Hmmm. Maybe replace the crossbowmen...
I think the Black Guard would do great on this mission. I'm not convinced we'd get them, and concerned we might get dark looks for even asking. Maybe if presented as a way to keep an eye on the mercenary forces...
Maybe replace the crossbowmen with the Black Guard and hope our diplomacy lets us sell the idea?
That'd look like this:
[] Plan Balance of Factors v2
-[] The Fireclaws of Vaul
-[] Scarloc's Archers
-[] Ogre Butchers
-[] Westerlander Halberdiers
-[] Hugo Fielck
-[] Ostland Black Guard
-[] Ostland Spearmen
-[] Warrior-Priests of Ulric
Heavier hitting with more Ostlanders and fewer (but still significant) ranged units. Might work.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Forests full of living trees don't catch fire that easily except if there was a severe drought. And even if that's the case, it can be used to solidify one flank or cover the retreat. Fire magi cis also very good against regenerating enemies like the Spawns.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Like I said Fielck just seems kind of redundant if we're bringing ourself and Valahuir and the Butchers.
If the count wasn't willing for us to take some of his regular troops at all then I imagine they wouldn't be on offer. As is I imagine he'd sooner part with some of his state troops then some of his more powerful mercenaries. We were even basically told that the elven prince, a mercenary, is the most "expensive" unit around.
If the count wasn't willing for us to take some of his regular troops at all then I imagine they wouldn't be on offer. As is I imagine he'd sooner part with some of his state troops then some of his more powerful mercenaries. We were even basically told that the elven prince, a mercenary, is the most "expensive" unit around.
I'm concerned that if he is taken there will be one more Chaos Spawn to deal with
- Location
- Germany
The Black Guard is also one of Ostland's most elite and renowned units. Giving command to them to a mercenary is extremely unlikely unless we have proven ourselves repeatedly and without a sliver of doubt.
I believe it's too big an ask, and will definitely be rejected. I'd go even further and say that asking for them will be viewed badly by the Elector Count. After all, why would he need to send us in the first place to clear this forest if we're just going to pick an Elite unit to do the heavy lifting (from their perspective).
Nevermind the fact that such a unit is most certainly already included in whatever plans the Count made for his own assault. Unless we are tremendously lucky, I don't know see that working out.
Go with the units that followed us on our recent mission and fill them out with units that deal with the weaknesses we encountered. It was repeatedly said that moral was an issue and we lacked both game changers and fast responders. I'd say a mage/the Elven Smith, someone to scout, though I'm not too sure about the Wood Elves, and a Gryphon Rider. Some extra halberdiers for large units I guess.
That's just a really rough draft though. Point on the BG stands.
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Imperious
Without the sun of my life
I just don't think that just because a unit is part of the count's own forces rather then a mercenary unit means that the Black Guard, or even just regular state troops according to Deadmanwalking, are that much more valuable then their mercenary equivalents. We were told outright that the prince will be the hardest unit to gain in its description. In contrast the descriptions of the Ostland regulars doesn't mention them being particularly harder to get compared to mercenaries. This suggests to me that the main thing determining how hard it'll be to get the count to assign us a unit is its combat utility rather then whether its a regular unit or a mercenary, given we're told outright that a mercenary unit is the hardest one to get.
In that regard some well trained heavy infantry like the Black Guard don't seem like that much of an ask when stuff like a giant or a mammoth are part of what's on the table.
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- Location
- Washington
I feel like there's an argument for the Knights of the Bull just for relationship building purposes. Yes, they're not literally ideal, but hey they're arguably better than 'equivalent' heavy infantry on the way TO the glade in case the goblins have told other greenskins about the big fight coming or whatnot, or want to kick us while we're down on the way back.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I suspect we can get some Ostland regulars, certainly. How many we can get is more of an open question, I feel.
I think we might be able to sell him on sending some with us to keep an eye on the mercenaries. Maybe. That's the sort of argument that seems like it'd have some weight...
Again, and to be clear, I'm not saying we can't get any. I'm saying if we ask for too many, especially as compared to mercenaries, there may be issues.
The Knights of the Bull are cavalry, not infantry, which has a wildly different use case and not a great one for this mission, IMO. Even vs. goblins, they're not actually that great...knights tend to do poorly vs. skirmisher cavalry.
I mean...our last mission he very specifically assigned us pretty much only mercenaries, a fact that was commented on. There's clearly a distinction there. Maybe our success has made him inclined to ignore it entirely, but counting on that seems presumptuous to me.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Knights of the Bull seem like the easiest relationship to build though since we're going to be encountering them in the future anyway. Besides, taking someone here means taking them to a dangerous fight, not necessarily doing something that'll make them think they owe us. Perhaps we might manage to impress them in case we do a good job, but just taking them in and out of itself doesn't seem like it'll move the needle much for people who already know us.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
They're Ostland's most elite unit tho. If we take most of the mages available, taking them may be seen as overreaching.
- Location
- Germany
I'm not making stuff up. I'm drawing a conjecture. That's why I used the word "unlikely" and "imo".
Also:
I believe it's a fair conjecture to make. At least to some degree. We can certainly get them...
We just need good arguments and for now I haven't see a specific task mentioned that absolutely requires them to be fielded under our command.
I would certainly be happy if you got one, since that could guarantee us a great unit.
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Sertorius
Rebellious Legate
- Location
- Roma Invicta
Asking for the Black Guard is like asking Napoleon for the Old Guard.
The ruler will not part with them, unless it's an emergency. That's what mercenaries are for, so that his elite stays combat effective while guarding his butt.
Ando Owen
Yandere Illya is watching you.
- Location
- Montpellier
The Asur prince on a griffon is difficult to handle because he is an Asur prince. He is probably not that far from us on prowess stats and he could probably lead some troops if he wanted too.
The Black Guard won't have the ego issues of an Asur prince, but there are far more precious to the count than a prideful mercenary. The Black Guard are his personal troops that will stay with him. If we killed every mercenary around to bring victory to the count, he won't complain, but that's different with his own troops.
Well, there is the price tag too. The Black Guard to him must be like our swordmasters to us. Black Guards will likely be more difficult to obtain than other units, and the count won't like it if too many of them are killed. We have more of a margin with ordinary, easily replaceable troops. As long as we don't genocide his ordinary state troops, the count won't complain too much if a bunch of them got eaten alive by minotaurs.
Since we have swordmasters already, there isn't such a need for high tier infantry. Much like the ritual site at Jaarpen, our swordmasters only need troops to hold the line nearby to not be surrounded while they go through bestigors like a buzzsaw.
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Agree, those seem like very good picks.
I agree, halberds to deal with the Spawn is a must.
Okay, here is my idea.
[] Plan Right Tools for the Job
- [] De Jonge Bokken
- [] Westerlander Halberdiers
- [] Westerlander Handgunners
- [] The Skystalkers
- [] Ostland Ogres
- [] Ogre Butchers
- [] Scarloc's Archers
- [] The Fireclaws of Vaul
- [] Aramil Amakir and Stormclaw
- [] Knights of the Bull
Here is my reasoning.
We are going to need these things: a robust infantry core to hold the line, ranged troops to kill as many Beastmen as possible, heavy hitters to attack the flanks and overwhelm them, and magical support.
The Ogres and the Knights will be our main heavy hitters. The Skystalkers are good in mountain terrain, so they will be useful against the Goblins. And when the moment comes we can strike hard the Beastmen.
The Butchers, Aramil and the Fireclaws are needed to deal with the enemy monsters and spellcasters.
While the Wood Elves are perfect to screen and skirmish for our forces.
Our assorted Westerlander troops will be perfect to hold the line and hit the Beastmen from range.
And then, the Lightfangs and Fanriel can deal with unexpected surprised as needed.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
I wasn't talking about hard it would be to command the prince. Rather, we are literally told that the prince is considered to be the most valuable unit on the list of units on offer, despite being a mercenary unit and not a regular like the state troops or black guard. The idea that the Black Guard are "far more precious" to the count than the prince thus seems contradictory to the descriptions we're given.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This, however is a good point, maybe something like this:
[] Plan Balance of Factors v3
-[] The Fireclaws of Vaul
-[] Scarloc's Archers
-[] Ogre Butchers
-[] Hugo Fielck
-[] Ostland Black Guard
-[] Ostland Spearmen
-[] Ostland Archers
-[] Warrior-Priests of Ulric
-[] Specifically, note that we need spellcasters for the corrupted spirits, and archers and scouts to screen us, along with a core of soldiers to hold the line when battle comes, with weapons suitable to the terrain and strong discipline, with discipline and morale being the most important factor. Elite heavy infantry to smash through are also desired, and while we'd understand entirely if the Black Guard are not available, they'd be ideal from a discipline standpoint, and could keep an eye on things for the Count. Replacements would be needed if they aren't available, but we understand entirely if they aren't.
How about that? If he's reluctant to send his own troops, this leaves room for him to send something else instead.
I would call it bargaining.
If we ask for Aramil, we either:
A) Get him.
Or
B) We are give Jochaim as a replacement by the count.
In my mind, its a win-win.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
I still think Fielck is a bit much when we're already taking ourselves, and the butchers, and the fireclaws, making fielck our fourth mage unit, but othewrwise that seems fine.
Might want to add Ostland ogres if we're taking the Butchers though.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
The mages are requested under the assumption we may not get them all, but that all would be highly useful even if we did get them. I could try and add something to the note in that regard but I'd need to think about how to phrase it.
I feel like if we are asking for Ogre Butchers we may as well ask for Ostlander Ogres as well. Just let the big boys feast.