[Mafia] A Murder of Crows

[Terrabrand]

Because you're claiming he is one, so he's trying to build a case that "even if you're right, you're wrong" - if he's not a Jackdaw then your vote is specious, and if he is then you're the Magpie and so a preferred target anyway, making you a better target than him in any possible world. This closes off a possible avenue of defense for you and attack against him, provided others buy his argument, and frankly it's an obvious enough play that your supposed ignorance of it is difficult to swallow.

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We're running out of time and I want to keep ahead of any last minute people being swayed,,yes. Regardless what alignment you think I am it's helpful to my wincon for me to live, as even crows are in the position of being the only confirmed town from their own perspective etc.

I don't think he is he magpie, as stated, but if you believe I am a jackdaw the neutral conclusion is he probably is the magpie.

I get a really strong jackdaw read from Terra, and his perspective on the first plan was 'Actually, yeah, that would probably work. Although that particularly hurts the jackdaws, so let's not do it'. Whereas there was I think two other people who objected to the first plan, whose reasons were more practical.

What I really want to do is go with either plan, particularly the second one if that would work, but there's a sizeable bandwagon on me at the moment.

My objection to Terra's latest 'If I were a jackdaw' is that it adds absolutely nothing if he is not a jackdaw. The only point it seems to make was 'even if I were a jackdaw, you don't have a reason to think that as a crow, so you must be something else!'.

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Protip lying about people's words is a great way to look scum.

I mean statistically the expected result is 'vote hits town' AND the actual expected result is 'vote hits town, BUT EVEN MORE SO' for d1 since the maf/ravens will back each other to some degree and the jackdaws multivote and might also back each other to boot.

Like, I'd place it under a 25% chance of *actually* getting a raven d1, just because they're unlikely to slip that badly. But it could happen, anybody could wind up the vote.

Personally I think trying to force people to all vote differently is clever but too likely to fail from this being a social game. We've got around 36 hours to convince literally everyone of that plan, and if eg both jackdaws don't vote and also a few crows and a raven just... aren't paying attention and don't vote or double up or whatever could really ruin it.

Also I just don't personally like trying to use Game Solving Clever Strats d1 anyways.

Like, I think it's a plan that objectively probably does favor town (and disfavor jackdaws), but I don't like it on a playstyle level tbh.

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This is my response to the plan. I don't like Game Solving Clever Strats, I don't like that style of play. Especially d1.

That's my objection. Trying to mischaracterize me as saying 'it hurts jackdaw so let's not' is just the latest example of a disprovable lie.

On another note, I'm talking about the Jackdaw perspective a lot because, you know there is a goddamn plan that requires jackdaw cooperation to fuck over jackdaws and now I stand accused of being a jackdaw. One of my standard strats regardless of alignment is ''okay let's accept the argument against me; I'm X. What am I doing/thinking??"

You accusing me of being a jackdaw means I'm going to adress 'okay, if y'all believe I'm a jackdaw that means..' and is something I'd do in any role.

Furthermore,I'm seeing claims that me saying jackdaws are the lowest threat is evidence of my jackdawness.

This is transparently false, because;

I'll limit myself to 'I actually argued for stronger jackdaws than IH went with' so I don't agree that they're overpowered as is, obviously.

I'll talk more after the game is over about principles and things, in respect to IH's desire for strategy and balance discussion to wait.

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I said this before the game even started, before I got a rolecard, and in fact when I thought I wouldn't be playing.

I thought the Jackdaws were understrength before this started. What would be suspicious would be me talking as if they were some great threat!

 

[QTesseract]

It just doesn't work. The jackdaws are people; they're smart enough to, at the end of the day, go drop a vote on someone else and survive an extra day. It's like the "everyone votes someone random" plan but with a harder sell for no real benefit.

If you were really wedded to the plan, it would be better to have each person lynch the next person on the user list (or the previously or two down; whatever, as long as it's consistent) to avoid pileups, but neither one of them is a particularly good plan imo.

 

[Wiadi]

Yeah and I'm not necessarily like saying we shouldn't get an answer but a plan of

"Everyone kill themselves so the people who kill themselves the hardest dies"

Is just so anti-thetical to the spirit of the rules let alone the letter of it that anyone who entertains the notion for more then a minute should be able to realize the problem.
At least the first version involved trying to spread the votes around and just a loss of control, I'd argue the second version is actually infinitely worse to push.

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Oh sure, just to be clear, I'm not in favor of the plan - I was just curious what would happen in the hypothetical where it came up.

I suppose it is, exclusively for the jackdaws. So we can know who the jackdaws are by looking at who is resisting this impeccable plan.

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...yeah, okay, that's enough of that.

[X] Peck UnderlingMaster

I've got to go and I'm not sure I'll be back for EoD and so far UM has just been digging this hole deeper and deeper so I'm dropping my vote here for now. I'll do my best to show back up in time for last-minute changes if warranted, but no promises.

 

[UnderlingMaster]

My recommended lynch for tomorrow is Terra.

The plan should still be usable tomorrow, look carefully at the people who resisted it today.

 

[Terrabrand]

My recommended lynch for tomorrow is Terra.

The plan should still be usable tomorrow, look carefully at the people who resisted it today.

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Dude. If you're actually a goddamn crow pay any attention, any at all, to the counterarguments people are raising. Like. It's already been pointed out that your nonsense claims of 'only the jackdaws benefit from arguing against this plan!1!' implies that what. Me, wiadi, QT, cyricubed, and meso? Maybe more? Are the two jackdaws.

You are just ignoring everything to blithely assume I'm a jackdaw on an entirely bullshit basis.

 

[InterstellarHobo]

In the event that a player dies with no other responsible players (from, say, a modkill or being the only person to vote themselves) then they retain any shiny things they might have. Their faction is revealed, but their shiny thing posession status is not.

They remain a valid theft target, until such a time as it is clear from public information that they lack shiny things.

In particularly absurd circumstances, this could mean winning while dead.

 

[NSMS]

If I vote for anybody on the basis of heavily resisting the anti-Jackdaw plan, it'd be QTesseract and not Terra. The only exception to this would be if UM turns out to be the Magpie, and thus could be assumed to have a very good reason to insist Terra's a Jackdaw.

 

[Terrabrand]

Like part of why I'm as confident as one gets d1 that UnderlingMaster is scum is his entire contribution was to ask about jackdaws and finding them and then trying to railroad a lynch onto me.

For all his talk of 'look at people arguing against THE PLAN THE PLAN' he hasn't eg gone 'QTesseract also looks sus now that it's been pointed out' or whatever. it's just 'lynch terrabrand. Lynch him now, lynch him tomorrow, lynch terrabrand because HE"S OBVIOUSLY A JACKDAW FOR THIS TRAIT THAT ISN"T UNIQUE TO HIM AND BLARGH'.

He's not actually trying to help town. He's just trying to get me lynched over and over and over on increasingly tenous basis. If he's actually town, he's wasted the last chunk of the day tunneling onto me unto his own death hurting literally only town and helping all of town's enemies because he's not even willing to address counterarguments raised by people not me in any meaningful capacity.

If I vote for anybody on the basis of heavily resisting the anti-Jackdaw plan, it'd be QTesseract and not Terra. The only exception to this would be if UM turns out to be the Magpie, and thus could be assumed to have a very good reason to insist Terra's a Jackdaw.

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and this is exactly why I don't think he's the magpie. Because if he was, he wouldn't be tunneling me unto his death while being wrong.

 

[UnderlingMaster]

Dude. If you're actually a goddamn crow pay any attention, any at all, to the counterarguments people are raising. Like. It's already been pointed out that your nonsense claims of 'only the jackdaws benefit from arguing against this plan!1!' implies that what. Me, wiadi, QT, cyricubed, and meso? Maybe more? Are the two jackdaws.

You are just ignoring everything to blithely assume I'm a jackdaw on an entirely bullshit basis.

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Actually this plan is incredibly crow-sided. The jackdaws are a balancing act since otherwise town's lynches keep all the shiny things for the crows.

 

[NSMS]

The Jackdaws are a faction that comes into their own late-game, by my read of the rules. At that point their vote-warping can have a disproportionately larger impact on who gets lynched (early game they hold 6 votes of 20, late game they could easily hold 6 votes of 14), so tactical use of that could do a lot of damage and net them plenty of shinies.

 

[Terrabrand]

Actually this plan is incredibly crow-sided. The jackdaws are a balancing act since otherwise town's lynches keep all the shiny things for the crows.

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the plan is a gameplan for near certain crow loss.

you want to commit multiple lynches to no scum-hunting and an outcome of 'probably a crow dies/jackdaw dies' having us enter like. day 5 with 7 crows vs 4 ravens and the magpie. Because the jackdaws aren't going to lie down and die, and by sheer odds a randomly selected player will be a crow. The most likely outcome is crows lose.

but sure. keep proving my point that all you're doing is arguing 'kill terra, also the plan is perfect but instead of using the plan kill terra'. That's... That's just bad play in any alignment since we know we have no jesters, but I'm pretty sure you're scum so *shrug*.

 

[Ori]

Actually this plan is incredibly crow-sided. The jackdaws are a balancing act since otherwise town's lynches keep all the shiny things for the crows.

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[Ori]

The only reason I have to think UnderlingMaster isn't a raven is that I would hope his scum team would've reined him in by now.

 

[UnderlingMaster]

Like part of why I'm as confident as one gets d1 that UnderlingMaster is scum is his entire contribution was to ask about jackdaws and finding them and then trying to railroad a lynch onto me.

For all his talk of 'look at people arguing against THE PLAN THE PLAN' he hasn't eg gone 'QTesseract also looks sus now that it's been pointed out' or whatever. it's just 'lynch terrabrand. Lynch him now, lynch him tomorrow, lynch terrabrand because HE"S OBVIOUSLY A JACKDAW FOR THIS TRAIT THAT ISN"T UNIQUE TO HIM AND BLARGH'.

He's not actually trying to help town. He's just trying to get me lynched over and over and over on increasingly tenous basis. If he's actually town, he's wasted the last chunk of the day tunneling onto me unto his own death hurting literally only town and helping all of town's enemies because he's not even willing to address counterarguments raised by people not me in any meaningful capacity.


and this is exactly why I don't think he's the magpie. Because if he was, he wouldn't be tunneling me unto his death while being wrong.

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I'm a crow. I've made more contributions than that.

Three separate times, for three separate reasons, you have given us the point of view of a jackdaw, doing this with no other role you purport not to be.

Your objection, that you don't like clever d1 plans just isn't good enough. You launched a bandwagon on me because I voted for you first. You should need something undeniably separate to vote someone who is voting you.

Most importantly, you're reading the same way that others have when people have identified them as scum, for the wrong reasons. You're much too angry about this, and you're resisting for no good reason.

The way this should work is that we all vote for ourselves except the two jackdaws who flounder about and ultimately get lynched. Anyone resisting the plan dies.

It was never that you were resisting the plan the hardest, it was that you had the poorest reason.

What counterarguments from 'people beside you' have I failed to address?

 

[UnderlingMaster]

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If we lynch someone, assuming one person from each team votes, the jackdaw gets the shiny. If we kill both jackdaws, then we get the shiny each time instead.

Once the jackdaws are dead, crows get last pick stealing also. That means if I have nothing, and my opponent has one thing, then if we both steal from each other I end up with the thing. If I have one thing and my opponent has nothing then I end up with the thing then too, because I can just steal it back.

Once the jackdaws are dead, crows become very powerful indeed.

 

[Ori]

If we lynch someone, assuming one person from each team votes, the jackdaw gets the shiny. If we kill both jackdaws, then we get the shiny each time instead.

Once the jackdaws are dead, crows get last pick stealing also. That means if I have nothing, and my opponent has one thing, then if we both steal from each other I end up with the thing. If I have one thing and my opponent has nothing then I end up with the thing then too, because I can just steal it back.

Once the jackdaws are dead, crows become very powerful indeed.

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That it happens to also help Ravens arguably more or just as much at the same time is entirely coincedental, that you haven't mentioned or thought about it really is also entirely coincidental I'm sure.

 

[NSMS]

I'm a crow. I've made more contributions than that.

Three separate times, for three separate reasons, you have given us the point of view of a jackdaw, doing this with no other role you purport not to be.

Your objection, that you don't like clever d1 plans just isn't good enough. You launched a bandwagon on me because I voted for you first. You should need something undeniably separate to vote someone who is voting you.

Most importantly, you're reading the same way that others have when people have identified them as scum, for the wrong reasons. You're much too angry about this, and you're resisting for no good reason.

The way this should work is that we all vote for ourselves except the two jackdaws who flounder about and ultimately get lynched. Anyone resisting the plan dies.

It was never that you were resisting the plan the hardest, it was that you had the poorest reason.

What counterarguments from 'people beside you' have I failed to address?

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Well, to give one example:

Also, the 'lets all vote for ourselves' suggestion, if meant seriously, is suspicious as hell. On the surface it seems like a reasonable idea, but it relies on getting actually everybody to vote- something we haven't even managed for the first anti-Jackdaw plan- and on enough people being around to react when the Jackdaws shift. Which is a long way from guaranteed.

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[Terrabrand]

I'm a crow. I've made more contributions than that.

Three separate times, for three separate reasons, you have given us the point of view of a jackdaw, doing this with no other role you purport not to be.

Your objection, that you don't like clever d1 plans just isn't good enough. You launched a bandwagon on me because I voted for you first. You should need something undeniably separate to vote someone who is voting you.

Most importantly, you're reading the same way that others have when people have identified them as scum, for the wrong reasons. You're much too angry about this, and you're resisting for no good reason.

The way this should work is that we all vote for ourselves except the two jackdaws who flounder about and ultimately get lynched. Anyone resisting the plan dies.

It was never that you were resisting the plan the hardest, it was that you had the poorest reason.

What counterarguments from 'people beside you' have I failed to address?

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I'm not angry dude. Nice appeal to emotion, claiming I'm angry. I'm just baffled by the incredibly bad play.

And I'm 'resisting' because your play is shit and your plan is shit.

But no. You want to vote me up, explicitly claiming d1 reads are bad so we should be self voting, not even trying to launch the plan... You're lying is what it sums down to. You mouth the words THE PLAN THE PLAN but you don't actually even try to act on it, doing things you explicitly say we should not. That's like. The most obvious explanation is 'jackdaw trying to talk the talk but not walk the walk because ACTUALLY getting the plan would in fact ruin the jackdaws'.

And no, you really haven't made more contributions. You just keep hammering 'terra's a jackdaw, use the plan except actually instead kill terra and don't use the plan!!' That's really ir.

And dude. Quit lying about me yeah?

Thaaaat's… a really good point. Regardless of how many shiny things the magpie has at the start, you're practically guaranteeing it gains at least one.

In light of that... I'm gonna go for, sadly, d1 activity pushing.

@ComiTurtle you have 2 posts, at the very start, neither is real content. We have 14-15~ hours left, give or take, I'm not up to figuring out exactly, get posting friend bird.

@Shadell you have no vote out and no real content, and one post.

@UnderlingMaster ditto.

@Tykan you've also got one post, and no vote. Some content, at least, but shape up.

@Wiadi same as Tykan.

@1KBestK you've got about three posts and no real vote and little content.

The eagle eyed will notice that's over 1/3rd of all players. I might be overlooking another low poster. Barring something exceptional happening, my vote is going somewhere in this inactivity block for the rest of d1, because holy shit we can't as town let that huge count of players do nothing.

[X] Peck Shadell

Coinflip toss, metaphorically, between Shadell and Underling Master for most vote worthy on activity basis atm.

(this is also a great example of the coordination problem because we have a lot of people not voting and not posting we'd have no idea if the final lynch was jackdaw dictated or not.)

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Like. Lemme requote the most relevant bit on top of the whole post;

Coinflip toss, metaphorically, between Shadell and Underling Master for most vote worthy on activity basis atm.

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I was literally a metaphorical coinflip from voting you.

and then you OMGUS mean for it, and lie and claim I'm omgus-ing you for lying and voting me for a reason that expressly points at people not me conspiciously right after I've activity prodded people including you and said I'm on the verge of voting you.

you made a shit post when I was already on the verge of voting you. You trying to make up shit about how it's illegitimate to vote you for being on the verge of voting you and then you being mega scummy is beyond inane. I don't need a 'clearly seperate' reason to vote you for being INSANELY SCUMMY when I was a step away from doing it and decided Shadell was slightly higher priority on my voting metric

 

[Terrabrand]

like seriously if we treat voting for someone as MAGIC SHIELD OF YOU CAN'T VOTE ME LOL then scum can just vote someone on flimsy reasons any time suspicion of them is mentioned. Of course we aren't doing that, that'd be insanely dumb.

 

[UnderlingMaster]

@Terrabrand: You keep saying I'm lying. How about you state clearly some of these lies?

 

[Terrabrand]

I also shouldn't need to mention that I already mentioned why I kept talking about the jackdaw perspective and your response has been to stick your fingers in your ears and go LALALA and not even try to address it as somehow inadequate. Just ignore me pointing out the flaw in one of your fundamental pillars of Why Terra Is Jackdaw.

@Terrabrand: You keep saying I'm lying. How about you state clearly some of these lies?

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Nope. I'm not letting you bad faith this shit. I've already, repeatedly, pointed out cases where you definitionally have to be lying somewhere because you are doing things that directly contradict your own claims. You've addressed precisely none. I don't need to point out the lies anew, I've already done that. Either go back, and justify how you aren't lying, or quit acting like you're not lying. I don't need to defend myself from this nonsense where you ignore everything inconvenient to your narrative and then try to make up new, baseless proof I'm totally scum while not actually supporting any points or addressing any counterarguments.

 

[Terrabrand]

I've also pointed out several times you lied about what I said.

you've ignored all those. I don't need to point out specific lies when you're going to just straight up ignore all of them. That's just wasting me time and energy and throwing more chaff around to distract town when you aren't willing to address the ones I've already raised.

 

[UnderlingMaster]

I also shouldn't need to mention that I already mentioned why I kept talking about the jackdaw perspective and your response has been to stick your fingers in your ears and go LALALA and not even try to address it as somehow inadequate. Just ignore me pointing out the flaw in one of your fundamental pillars of Why Terra Is Jackdaw.


Nope. I'm not letting you bad faith this shit. I've already, repeatedly, pointed out cases where you definitionally have to be lying somewhere because you are doing things that directly contradict your own claims. You've addressed precisely none. I don't need to point out the lies anew, I've already done that. Either go back, and justify how you aren't lying, or quit acting like you're not lying. I don't need to defend myself from this nonsense where you ignore everything inconvenient to your narrative and then try to make up new, baseless proof I'm totally scum while not actually supporting any points or addressing any counterarguments.

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I listened, but you only explained your most recent one, not why you keep coming back to it.

 

[Terrabrand]

I listened, but you only explained your most recent one, not why you keep coming back to it.

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...

'I was talking about jackdaw perspective because we were making a plan that hinges on jackdaw play, and then I now stand accused of being a jackdaw'. Sure did only explain one time, and not literally the entire day. Yep. Sure am being engaged with honestly and not by someone trying to retcon my explanations as weaker and less comprehensive than they were!

 

[UnderlingMaster]

...

'I was talking about jackdaw perspective because we were making a plan that hinges on jackdaw play, and then I now stand accused of being a jackdaw'. Sure did only explain one time, and not literally the entire day. Yep. Sure am being engaged with honestly and not by someone trying to retcon my explanations as weaker and less comprehensive than they were!

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I quoted you doing it three times.