[Mafia] A Murder of Crows

Like part of why I'm as confident as one gets d1 that UnderlingMaster is scum is his entire contribution was to ask about jackdaws and finding them and then trying to railroad a lynch onto me.

For all his talk of 'look at people arguing against THE PLAN THE PLAN' he hasn't eg gone 'QTesseract also looks sus now that it's been pointed out' or whatever. it's just 'lynch terrabrand. Lynch him now, lynch him tomorrow, lynch terrabrand because HE"S OBVIOUSLY A JACKDAW FOR THIS TRAIT THAT ISN"T UNIQUE TO HIM AND BLARGH'.

He's not actually trying to help town. He's just trying to get me lynched over and over and over on increasingly tenous basis. If he's actually town, he's wasted the last chunk of the day tunneling onto me unto his own death hurting literally only town and helping all of town's enemies because he's not even willing to address counterarguments raised by people not me in any meaningful capacity.


and this is exactly why I don't think he's the magpie. Because if he was, he wouldn't be tunneling me unto his death while being wrong.

I'm a crow. I've made more contributions than that.

Three separate times, for three separate reasons, you have given us the point of view of a jackdaw, doing this with no other role you purport not to be.

Your objection, that you don't like clever d1 plans just isn't good enough. You launched a bandwagon on me because I voted for you first. You should need something undeniably separate to vote someone who is voting you.

Most importantly, you're reading the same way that others have when people have identified them as scum, for the wrong reasons. I haven't gone thr
Lol. Hi scum!

No but seriously you're arguing that the dude who has spent most of the game day saying 'yeah it's probably objectively favorable to town mechanics wise but I don't like that style of play and I'm not gonna hard oppose it cause it helps me but I don't like it neither' is... Very opposed to the plan. Not, oh say, QT who actually came out hard swinging against it, and not -rosen who expressed very similar sentiments to me, and not Cyricubed who was also hard oppossed and morally opposed.

Just me. One of the only active players.

Have fun being my d1 lynch frend. Cause this is transparent as hell.

[X] Peck UnderlingMaster

The reason you gave here, when you originally voted me, is that I voted you.
 
I quoted you doing it three times.
dude have fun with this nonsense, I literally just proved you're lying again. I addressed more than a single time, which means you are objectively wrong I only adressed the latest also known as probably lying. But sure, let's look at the three OH SO DAMNING TIMES.

He's used the jackdaw perspective many times though.
here you quote three of my posts. Let's look at them. (not that three is many, mind...)

So let's talk some theory.

The magpie is the biggest threat to literally everyone. Especially the jackdaws. He steals twice, and he launches those thefts while knowing who has what roles and what role types have shiny things (since that's announced at start of night). More importantly though, it's the only role that can win early. It's in our best interest to try to make sure the magpie dies early, unless one is themselves the magpie.

The Jackdaws sound dangerous, due to having multi voting etc, but they... actually aren't. Don't get me wrong, every team can win, but the Jackdaws have a collective two steals per night, and can't coordinate them. Most likely, they'll only rarely manage a steal. The big threat of the jackdaws is the day game, where they have disproportionate influence... but of course if we see anyone lynched 'wrong' we learn that one of the votes on them is a jackdaw.

and incidentally that cluster will probably be mobbed for thefts if the night reveals the jackdaws have shiny things.

The Ravens are the closest thing to a maf we have. They're the next biggest priority after the magpie. They make up 1/4th of the game at the start, and can each steal once, making sure they all steal from a different player. What this means is that going into n1, if the Ravens aren't the d1 lynch, they can simply carpet 4/11 not them players, and then 4/10 the next night, and so on if they keep not getting lynched. This means they're extremely likely to accumulate early shiny things, and will be basically unstoppable if they keep being missed.

We Crows (but of course i'd claim crow, we're the majority) get nine thefts, and nine votes. But we're facing a coordination problem. We can't coordinate thefts, so we're likely to waste a random percent each night, and we can't be sure who even is on our side at each step.

Incidentally, we should look to the wisdom of any crow myslynches, since we can know for sure they were in fact a crow and not some perfidious other bird. Especially if we at some point myslynch comiturtle and he puts out a scum team guess, he's alarmingly accurate. Assuming he's a crow anyways.

I'll be honest, this isn't the kind of theory discussion I'd make post game, this *is* affected by my alignment. That's true whether I'm town or not, but I am not gonna point out a strategy that hurts my team/personal chances if you assume I'm magpie/whatever mid game.

General theory talk, which you pull a three word subsentence out of to claim is me posting from the jackdaw perspective. I didn't explicate this at the time, but since them magpie knows both jackdaws the magpie can at will blanket both of them if it knows they have shiny things to guaranteed gain one. That makes it, objectively, most dangerous to the jackdaws.

I thought about this long before this game was even posted. But it's not me posting from the jackdaw perspective, it's you pulling a single comment out of a lengthy theory post to claim is posting from the jackdaw perspective when it's not.

In fact, it's a point in favor of me being either raven or crow, because, wait for it, it encourages the jackdaws to hunt for the magpie, turning two of my enemies on each other. At best, you might argue it's signaling my jackdaw mate, if you take it as a given I am a jackdaw, but you haven't argued that, you've argued it as a perspective slip.

More skilled, generally. Like, I might jump on that grenade were I hypothetically a jackdaw to save eg Broken Base or Pawn, though I don't think any of the players I trust to play better than me is in the game so if I did that I'd probably be trying to throw strong enemies under the bus by implication lol.

round 2. NSMS asked how one would be more valuable. I answered that, explaining how it's a matter of skill and that I might eg shield Broken Base or Pawn if they were in the game and we were both Jackdaws.

Not a perspective slip. And requires you ignore the other people explaining the same reasoning.

like. If I look at this from the false perspective that I'm actually a jackdaw (which, I reiterate, is wrong, but I have no proof of that) then this makes you the magpie. Because you are lying about your reasons, and picking me over people that they better apply to. If I was a jackdaw, that'd ring the alarm for 'magpie who is making after the fact justifications for what they know through role power'. As is, i'd bet on you as either a raven (trying to get towncred by going after a not them group) or a jackdaw yourself (trying to 'come to the defense' of the plan in a way that excuses you pushing a lynch that is... not the plan you are pushing as optimal play, thus creating a situation where you look like you're not fighting the plan while ensuring it fails thus letting you not get a jackdaw lynched).

The already explained case.

there ya go. I have over 30 posts, and of less than 1/10 you can find three... that don't actually involve me posting from a jackdaw perspective. At all. In the first place. Except the third, which is because I was accused of it and that's my standard strat in any alignment for addressing a case that I'm X Alignment. And the others only kinda look like I am if you very, very blatantly strip all context to lie about me.

And, of course, you've continued to ignore me pointing out that I was saying JACKDAWS WEAK before start of game, so me being of the opinion JACKDAWS WEAK is not in any way a surprise twist. Me making the jackdaws sound weak is about the only extent you could have a case, except it requires you assume I had my role before I even signed up for the game.
 
What happened to my first plan being objectively good?
people have pointed out new exciting reasons I overlooked, as I responded to when cyric pointed out the flaws.

also quit trying to steal credit for NSMS plan. That's the plan I thought was objectively good, but didn't like style wise.

In a shocking twist, as people pointed out flaws in a plan I overlooked I ceased to hold the opinion that it was objectively good.

this is also totally a logical play for Jackdaw!Terrabrand to make, rather than backing the plan as objectively good to the hilt for Not!Jackdaw credit given you're currently being shot high on the lynchwagons and I have no need to shove the lynch off me at this juncture because it's not on me, and not you grasping at straws and/or tunneling.
 
To be 100% fair, UM did make a post about what seems to be the same plan I proposed immediately before I did:
We should distribute the votes so we can find both Jackdaws
Mine was two posts after this:
...you posted as I was in the middle of writing up this exact suggestion. Well, since it'll be a shame to let it go to waste, here's what I had anyway:

So, I've been thinking, and it occurred to me that there's a guaranteed way to flush out at least one Jackdaw. If everybody votes for somebody different (so everybody has a single vote aimed at them), then both the pecking order and Jackdaw powers mean that the person who dies has to have been voted for by a Jackdaw. Their only way they can avoid being outed by this method is to not vote at all, at which point the Jackdaws both become obvious anyway as being players who didn't vote on night one when the person we peck on night two isn't a Jackdaw.

The pros of this tactic:
  1. It guarantees us the ID of at least one Jackdaw.
  2. It doesn't require complex analysis or tactics to pull off.
  3. It lets us get something genuinely useful from the normally meme-y and random day one lynch.
  4. This tactic can be repeated if desired.
The cons:
  1. It guarantees that the night one lynch will be be non-town controlled, which gives it a 9/14 chance of hitting us (9 Crows, 2 Jackdaws, 16 players).
  2. I'm not sure how much useful information we'll get from this outside of outing a Jackdaw, which may hurt in future turns.
  3. This depends on the everyone working together to, er, work.
Thoughts, everyone? Is this worth trying?
I just went into a lot more detail, and then put in a fair bit of wordage arguing for it when UM just let it lie.
 
To be 100% fair, UM did make a post about what seems to be the same plan I proposed immediately before I did:

Mine was two posts after this:

I just went into a lot more detail, and then put in a fair bit of wordage arguing for it when UM just let it lie.
Okay, that's fair. Doesn't change my other points, but that's fair.
 
@UnderlingMaster, honestly you should start looking for a new angle. The first plan won't happen, definitely more people than the Jackdaws are against it. The second plan is even worse.
Additionally you won't convince anyone right now of Terra being non-crow. And if you flip crow (what I somehow expect by now), I doubt that the big "Terra-Hunt" will happen tomorrow. That stuff never works. The only thing you achieve is digging yourself deeper.
 
It's only objectively good in robot world where you can control everyones actions by being a being of pure logic.

This is a social game.
yes there's that too. Been a bit fried but I was originally talking, and this kinda jogs my memory on that, that 'if you can get everyone to agree, it's probably objectively favorable to town' but I also outright said I don't think you'll manage the coordination problem of getting everyone on board.

which is also one of the reasons why if I was a jackdaw I'd probably have seriously considered backing it to the hilt and watching it fall apart and give me a chance to bullshit up an excuse for why I wasn't following it in the end or just watch people dogpile someone suspect or whatever rather than giving my actual opinion of 'ehhh. I don't really like that kinda play and ain't convinced you can make it happen' off the bat, before I started to even consider problems like 'vengeful jackdaw' and 'free shinies for magpie'.
 
I'm not getting anywhere with arguing with you, Terrabrand. It doesn't seem like anyone else is really following the argument. I'm pretty sure you're a jackdaw, and basically everything you've done makes sense from that lens, while I struggle to see your motivation from any other perspective.

Believe it or not, I am in fact a crow.

@Cyricubed
@ItzNarcotic
@Shadell
@Rayday11
@ComiTurtle
@NSMS
@mesonoxian
@TheMaskedReader
@1KBestK
@QTesseract
@Tykan
@UnderlingMaster
@OriginalName
@Wiadi
@-Rosen
@Terrabrand

Here's what I propose:

Everyone willing to follow the plan votes for themselves today.

Anyone who is not voting for themselves by the end of the day is on the List.

Tomorrow, when I will surely be dead and revealed as a crow, vote for someone on the List, in this order:

Terra
Cyri
QTess
Original
Rosen
1Best
meso
Shadell
Tykan
Wiadi
Rayday
Masked
Comi
Narcotic
NSMS

[X] Peck UnderlingMaster
 
I mean I'm not gonna lie I was willing to go along with it to see what happened but to get this mad over it not working is either

A) being a liability by being dense as fuck
B) being a liability by not being what you say you are.

In my experience both of these being true at once happens more often than not anyways so I have 0 reason to change my vote.
 
I'm not getting anywhere with arguing with you, Terrabrand. It doesn't seem like anyone else is really following the argument. I'm pretty sure you're a jackdaw, and basically everything you've done makes sense from that lens, while I struggle to see your motivation from any other perspective.

Believe it or not, I am in fact a crow.

@Cyricubed
@ItzNarcotic
@Shadell
@Rayday11
@ComiTurtle
@NSMS
@mesonoxian
@TheMaskedReader
@1KBestK
@QTesseract
@Tykan
@UnderlingMaster
@OriginalName
@Wiadi
@-Rosen
@Terrabrand

Here's what I propose:

Everyone willing to follow the plan votes for themselves today.

Anyone who is not voting for themselves by the end of the day is on the List.

Tomorrow, when I will surely be dead and revealed as a crow, vote for someone on the List, in this order:

Terra
Cyri
QTess
Original
Rosen
1Best
meso
Shadell
Tykan
Wiadi
Rayday
Masked
Comi
Narcotic
NSMS

[X] Peck UnderlingMaster
Why would anybody vote for themself when it is pretty clear the plan isn't going to happen? This is just ceding control of the lynch to the jackdaws with very little hope of getting any information.
 
Why would anybody vote for themself when it is pretty clear the plan isn't going to happen? This is just ceding control of the lynch to the jackdaws with very little hope of getting any information.

If you're not a jackdaw, you have nothing to fear. I'm surely going to be lynched anyway today, and if not it will be abundantly clear who the jackdaws are.

If you don't change and you're not a jackdaw, you might be killed just for not following plan 3.
 
I am currently sick with something that's symptoms are more convergent with a bad cold then the coronavirus, but I'm going to keep myself sequestered for a while, and resting a lot, so expect my post count to go down. UM is throwing me very heavy scum (Magpie, maybe?) vibes atm, so.

[X] Peck UnderlingMaster
 
At this point, I'm convinced that UM is either non-town (though exact faction is unclear) or clueless to the point of it being actively detrimental. In either scenario, I'm keeping my vote on them.
 
I am currently sick with something that's symptoms are more convergent with a bad cold then the coronavirus, but I'm going to keep myself sequestered for a while, and resting a lot, so expect my post count to go down. UM is throwing me very heavy scum (Magpie, maybe?) vibes atm, so.

[X] Peck UnderlingMaster
That just now gave me serious bad vibes game-wise. Please do me a favour and remove that vote for let's say twenty minutes.
In other new
 
If you're not a jackdaw, you have nothing to fear. I'm surely going to be lynched anyway today, and if not it will be abundantly clear who the jackdaws are.

If you don't change and you're not a jackdaw, you might be killed just for not following plan 3.
Sure I have something to fear. The jackdaws might well choose to lynch me and since your plan probably won't work, the result is getting a crow killed for bupkis.
 
You've been arguing in a way that sets off huge numbers of alarm flags to anybody even mildly familiar with the genre, you're trying to convince people to follow a plan despite it having huge flaws that have been actively pointed out to you, and you post as if you're completely unaware of the reasons why people find your behaviour suspicious.
 
Here are the possible outcomes of this plan (Plan 3):

1. I die, due to the major presence of votes on me.
2. I don't die, revealing one or more jackdaws.
 
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