- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
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- He/Him
System defence fleets do exist with non-warp capable warships, but while that is technically okay, I suspect that we would upset some people by ruining some perfectly good warships in their minds.
Loyalty is its own Reward (A Traitor Legion Chapter Master Quest)
- Thread starter ThunderOwl
- Start date
Well, it depends on what kind of ships we use, for example, if it was a beat-up Corsair ship (the human kind, not that of the aeldar) the navy wouldn't be pissy as it isn't something like a battleship or a cruiser. Sure, we are cannibalizing a ship for system defense, but so long as it isn't something special or powerful, we won't be stepping on any toes.
Plus, we have our own navel ring, so not only will we be able to repair those system ships without barging into the navy's repair capacity. But we can also repair their ships if the need arises.
Plus, we have our own navel ring, so not only will we be able to repair those system ships without barging into the navy's repair capacity. But we can also repair their ships if the need arises.
Watchman-class System Defense Boat
Frankly, the Warp Engines are a substantial portion of any Imperial ship's construction cost/space and power supply - removing those gives plenty of room for really cool stuff like additional Void Shields and better point defense networks.
Y'know what, while I'm here, I'll go ahead and do another Tech Omake for @ThunderOwl
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Y'know what, while I'm here, I'll go ahead and do another Tech Omake for @ThunderOwl
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Watchman-class System Defense Boat (Rogue Trader RPG ruleset - modded for the quest, Cobra Destroyer variant)
---Explanation of terminology - "Scarce" means that technologically speaking this is as basic as it possibly gets, at least where Imperial spaceships are concerned. "Rare" means it's still just as basic technologically speaking, but it's either a specialty item that needs a bit of tweaking to fit properly (suggestion: one additional full Techmarine or Techpriest must be committed if one or more of these components is being installed this Turn), it requires unique materials (suggestion: costs more BP), or it simply isn't common on a standard Imperial warship (ie, they don't usually carry Barracks since that's for transports and blockade runners).
---The numbers in parenthesis () in the Ship Stats is what you'd find in a basic Navy Cobra Destroyer.
Ship Stats:
Speed - 10 (10) Manoueverability - 30 (30)
Armor - 17 base, 19 from the front (15) Hull Integrity - 30 (30)
Detection - 15 (10) Shields - 2 (1) Turrets - 2 (1)
Weapons (1 prow, 1 Dorsal):
Disruption Macrocannon Battery - Prow, Damage 1d10+1, Battery Strength - 3, Crit Rating - N/A, Range - 5, "Rare" Availability
Sunsear Laser Battery - Dorsal, Damage 1d10+2, Battery Strength - 4, Crit Rating - 4, Range - 9, "Scarce" availability
For comparison, the "standard" macrobattery of the Imperial Navy escorts and frigates:
Mars Pattern Macrobattery - Dorsal, Damage 1d10+2, Battery Strength - 3, Crit Rating - 5, Range - 6, "Scarce" availability
Critical Components (39/43 Power, 35/35 Space, all of "Scarce" availability and Common quality):
Class 2 Jovian Plasma Drive, Combat Bridge, Emergency Gellar Field, Repulsor Shield Array, Voidsman Quarters, Vitae Pattern Life Sustainer, Mk 201.b Augur Array
"Scarce" Common-Quality Components:
Brig, Cargo Hold and Lighter Bay, Reinforced Prow
"Rare" Common-Quality Components:
Additional Armor Plating, Augmented Retro-Thrusters, Barracks, Fire Suppression System
Suggested Rules, QM is expected to modify as is preferred:
---Watchman-class SDBs have 10-25% more HP than other Destroyer escorts (more armor) and Frigate or Light Cruiser Void Shield integrity (not sure if there's a difference)
---Watchman-class SDBs have +1 Dice on Detection rolls, Boarding and Counter-Boarding rolls, and anti-Fighter/Bomber/Assault Boat rolls (better sensors, Barracks + Brig, and more turrets with smaller target than is usual respectively)
---Watchman-class SDBs may make a Reaction Defense roll to counter Warp-based teleportation or Demonic Incursion (the Emergency Gellar Field)
---Watchmen do not suffer manouver penalties for light terrain hazards such as nebula and sparse debris or asteroid fields (repulsor shields)
---I don't know how you'd rule this in quest mechanics, but I should mention that Disruption Cannons don't actually inflict hull damage. Instead, every 5 points of damage that gets past the armor automatically De-Powers 1 Component which then requires a Tech-Use test with a malus to restart. (randomly if just generally shooting, the targeted part if aiming somewhere specific). Also affects biological "ships" like Void Krakens or Tyranids - it's still an assload of energy.
Fluff:
Most system defense boats are designed to be cheap and brutal, with heavy armor and powerful weapons. Given that they are often looked down on as second or third rate and/or feared by insecure planetary governors as strong points for rebels, emphasis is usually placed on "cheap" and extensive drilling is frequently frowned upon. Such vessels tend to function more as checkpoints and "bunkers" on a defensive line than actual void ships.
The Watchman is a significant departure from this trend, created by an enterprising band of Naval officers and Mechanicus Enginseers who realized that having a single logistics train was far cheaper than skimping on quality, that most space-faring criminals preferred fast ships which the average defense boat cannot hope to catch, and that a faster ship with longer range was better for many system-defense scenarios - especially when outnumbered by invaders. The venerable and time-honored Cobra destroyer was selected as being among the cheapest templates available while still correcting these flaws.
First and foremost, the Warp Drive and torpedos were removed to substantially save on space, cost, and power consumption. This was then redirected to facilities such as Arbites precincts, a small customs office with inspection lighters, a brig for temporary containment, and an extensive turret network for more expeditiously shooting down escapees. So much additional space was left over that it was realized Watchmen could serve as something of a "spare parts" role by filling them with components that were more commonly seen on light and full cruisers - if repairs for a campaign were desperately needed, they could simply be cut out of a Watchman and transferred over. As such, they are typically up-armored and carry doubled void shield arrays.
In terms of weaponry, Watchmen carry a dorsal and a prow macrobattery, the exact type of which is left up to individual dockyards to apply. A common loadout as seen here is two twin turbolaser turrets on the dorsal ridge for harassment and targeted shots at vital components, with two twin ion disruption cannons in the prow for disabling and capturing vessels for boarding. The extensive speed and agility of the Cobra chassis ensures that only the richest or luckiest criminals will escape.
---Explanation of terminology - "Scarce" means that technologically speaking this is as basic as it possibly gets, at least where Imperial spaceships are concerned. "Rare" means it's still just as basic technologically speaking, but it's either a specialty item that needs a bit of tweaking to fit properly (suggestion: one additional full Techmarine or Techpriest must be committed if one or more of these components is being installed this Turn), it requires unique materials (suggestion: costs more BP), or it simply isn't common on a standard Imperial warship (ie, they don't usually carry Barracks since that's for transports and blockade runners).
---The numbers in parenthesis () in the Ship Stats is what you'd find in a basic Navy Cobra Destroyer.
Ship Stats:
Speed - 10 (10) Manoueverability - 30 (30)
Armor - 17 base, 19 from the front (15) Hull Integrity - 30 (30)
Detection - 15 (10) Shields - 2 (1) Turrets - 2 (1)
Weapons (1 prow, 1 Dorsal):
Disruption Macrocannon Battery - Prow, Damage 1d10+1, Battery Strength - 3, Crit Rating - N/A, Range - 5, "Rare" Availability
Sunsear Laser Battery - Dorsal, Damage 1d10+2, Battery Strength - 4, Crit Rating - 4, Range - 9, "Scarce" availability
For comparison, the "standard" macrobattery of the Imperial Navy escorts and frigates:
Mars Pattern Macrobattery - Dorsal, Damage 1d10+2, Battery Strength - 3, Crit Rating - 5, Range - 6, "Scarce" availability
Critical Components (39/43 Power, 35/35 Space, all of "Scarce" availability and Common quality):
Class 2 Jovian Plasma Drive, Combat Bridge, Emergency Gellar Field, Repulsor Shield Array, Voidsman Quarters, Vitae Pattern Life Sustainer, Mk 201.b Augur Array
"Scarce" Common-Quality Components:
Brig, Cargo Hold and Lighter Bay, Reinforced Prow
"Rare" Common-Quality Components:
Additional Armor Plating, Augmented Retro-Thrusters, Barracks, Fire Suppression System
Suggested Rules, QM is expected to modify as is preferred:
---Watchman-class SDBs have 10-25% more HP than other Destroyer escorts (more armor) and Frigate or Light Cruiser Void Shield integrity (not sure if there's a difference)
---Watchman-class SDBs have +1 Dice on Detection rolls, Boarding and Counter-Boarding rolls, and anti-Fighter/Bomber/Assault Boat rolls (better sensors, Barracks + Brig, and more turrets with smaller target than is usual respectively)
---Watchman-class SDBs may make a Reaction Defense roll to counter Warp-based teleportation or Demonic Incursion (the Emergency Gellar Field)
---Watchmen do not suffer manouver penalties for light terrain hazards such as nebula and sparse debris or asteroid fields (repulsor shields)
---I don't know how you'd rule this in quest mechanics, but I should mention that Disruption Cannons don't actually inflict hull damage. Instead, every 5 points of damage that gets past the armor automatically De-Powers 1 Component which then requires a Tech-Use test with a malus to restart. (randomly if just generally shooting, the targeted part if aiming somewhere specific). Also affects biological "ships" like Void Krakens or Tyranids - it's still an assload of energy.
Fluff:
Most system defense boats are designed to be cheap and brutal, with heavy armor and powerful weapons. Given that they are often looked down on as second or third rate and/or feared by insecure planetary governors as strong points for rebels, emphasis is usually placed on "cheap" and extensive drilling is frequently frowned upon. Such vessels tend to function more as checkpoints and "bunkers" on a defensive line than actual void ships.
The Watchman is a significant departure from this trend, created by an enterprising band of Naval officers and Mechanicus Enginseers who realized that having a single logistics train was far cheaper than skimping on quality, that most space-faring criminals preferred fast ships which the average defense boat cannot hope to catch, and that a faster ship with longer range was better for many system-defense scenarios - especially when outnumbered by invaders. The venerable and time-honored Cobra destroyer was selected as being among the cheapest templates available while still correcting these flaws.
First and foremost, the Warp Drive and torpedos were removed to substantially save on space, cost, and power consumption. This was then redirected to facilities such as Arbites precincts, a small customs office with inspection lighters, a brig for temporary containment, and an extensive turret network for more expeditiously shooting down escapees. So much additional space was left over that it was realized Watchmen could serve as something of a "spare parts" role by filling them with components that were more commonly seen on light and full cruisers - if repairs for a campaign were desperately needed, they could simply be cut out of a Watchman and transferred over. As such, they are typically up-armored and carry doubled void shield arrays.
In terms of weaponry, Watchmen carry a dorsal and a prow macrobattery, the exact type of which is left up to individual dockyards to apply. A common loadout as seen here is two twin turbolaser turrets on the dorsal ridge for harassment and targeted shots at vital components, with two twin ion disruption cannons in the prow for disabling and capturing vessels for boarding. The extensive speed and agility of the Cobra chassis ensures that only the richest or luckiest criminals will escape.
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Catching up with pages.
Increase our fleet sounds good. It's not like we need a marine in EVERY fleet. We could have serfs man the ships and defensive fighter planes while Maines can use the thunderhawks to perform boarding actions and so on.
Finding the Nightfall sounds like a plan. IMO if we do try and go for that, we'll need to have ELITE tier serfs on all ships, additional war gear for all marines, a terminator squad, and like maybe go over the marine number limit by 100 or 200- because that many marines will die if we successfully clain the Nightfall, let's be honest here.
Increase our fleet sounds good. It's not like we need a marine in EVERY fleet. We could have serfs man the ships and defensive fighter planes while Maines can use the thunderhawks to perform boarding actions and so on.
Finding the Nightfall sounds like a plan. IMO if we do try and go for that, we'll need to have ELITE tier serfs on all ships, additional war gear for all marines, a terminator squad, and like maybe go over the marine number limit by 100 or 200- because that many marines will die if we successfully clain the Nightfall, let's be honest here.
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
It'd be impressive in its own right if we managed to have a big enough fleet that we would run thin on Astartes to carry out duties there. So it's probably going to be a while.
The "limit" is flexible when considered in the context of what a Chapter actually contains. 1000 is the maximum for Battle Brothers, but everything else is pretty much free. Nowalijki, Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Techmarines, Dreadnoughts, Sergeants, and Captains all don't count. And I've heard some interpretations which exclude vehicle operators too. So with that in mind, there's no need to risk getting the Ordo Astartes' panties in a bunch by exceeding our Battle Brother maximum.
...wait so special units like Librarians and Chaplains, including vehicle operators don't count towards the 1000 limit? Hoooooly fuckin Terra if that's factual that's a massive game changer for general marine and fleet based combat. The only thing that could make this even better is if we get our own allied forgeworlds to produce our wargear and stuff for serfs. Or just, have an insane number of Nowalijki, Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Techmarines, and Dreadnoughts.
Is there anything else that can be done to improve our chapter? I recall we were improving or crafting and med labs. What about improving our training grounds, chaplain building, etc.?
edit:
So Serverus has 3 actions
Master of the Keep has 2
Chief Librarian has 1
Master of the Forge has 2
Master of the Arsenal and Chief Victualler gives 50BP
Chief Apothecary has 2
Master of Recruits has 2
How many more IMPORTANT PEOPLE POSITIONS can we fill? How do we give our people more actions?
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I remember reading that the specialists don't count towards the limit.* The Blood Ravens at their height deployed a huge amount of Librarians. Though I've always suspected that the 6th&7th reserve companies are meant to partially act as auxiliary vehicle crews for the battle companies. Probably with some of the tech marines helping.
*I can't remember where but It'd just be silly if they did. Presumably as long as they're qualified and we don't get overly insane with it it'll be fine. I doubt the Inquisition is going to look kindly on us if we have several companies worth of specialists for instance.
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
That is correct yes. The Codex Astartes' words when describing the size of a Chapter referred to 10 companies each containing 100 Battle Brothers. This adds up to 1000 obviously, but you also need to have Sergeants and a Captain, which automatically add an extra 11 Space Marines per company. And that's just in the regular chain of command without specialists. You can't even have a Chapter if you dont have Apothecaries to perform Geneseed implantation for example, and Guilliman isn't a total asshole so he wasn't going to say "fuck you" to the Blood Angels for having a higher rate of psychic awakenings by forcing them to cut out whole Squads worth of Astartes from their regular lineup if they wanted to keep their Librarians.
As for Fortress-Monastery improvements, you'll have to ask the QM. This is what we know we are able to do right now though.
I doubt we would be able to make Reclusiam improvements though, since unlike the Forge or the Apothecarion it doesn't really need more tech. It's just a cathedral/museum inside the Fortress-Monastery, people go there for prayer, advice, confession, or simply to learn more about the Chapter's history. There isn't physical, tangible work done there.
As for training grounds? We're on a Death World, I'm pretty sure the majority of training happens across different parts of Luctus.
I see I see. Maybe at minimum we should shoot for 10-20 chaplains at the minimum, as many Librarians as we can get away with, same for Tech marines, and 2 apothicarians for ever squad (10 marines split into two groups of 5, 1 medic per group of 5).
So like, imagine having 2000 unnamed battle brothers. Shit would be wild.
For the Fortress Monestary maybe we could do something for the librarians, like adding more wards to mitigate or negate crit failures, increase odds of success, or slightly increase the number of librarians we get from battle brothers spontaneously gaining psyker powers.
So like, imagine having 2000 unnamed battle brothers. Shit would be wild.
For the Fortress Monestary maybe we could do something for the librarians, like adding more wards to mitigate or negate crit failures, increase odds of success, or slightly increase the number of librarians we get from battle brothers spontaneously gaining psyker powers.
At least one for every company
Through the Smilnay tech-priest, and right now they are in one of their isolationist periods.
Cool, its canon now. As a reward when the orbital docks are finished, you automatically get the design.
You can't fill any more positions, except for the remaining company captains. As for more actions, you'll get more as your personnel grows more experienced/and or you get more specialist.
Excellent - thanks much! I also went back and made a quick edit of an important detail about the disruption cannons that I forgot to put in the first time around.
SO, 1000 marines compliance reached, as many veteran marine training we can spam, and more specialists. HMMMMM.
We can also do a loophole like make the first Company a regular battle Company the Veteran Company a separate under Chapter master direct command
Makes it so we separate Veterans from regular battle brothers
Of course its a wide stretch so any excess Veterans above the 100 we need to put in other postions
Like Company Veteran sergeant Company Honour Guard send to the deathwatch or create out of Chapter units that so that we can write them of the list
For example we loan out a Squad or 2 to a rogue trader for favors and any tech he finds
Special bodyguards for select individual's like the sector lord or navigator houses we can make a deal with like the space Wolves do
Special Squads that go around Hive-worlds to aid the arbites with the crime they travel to world to world via a gladious escort
Send some to the Inquisition to be part of a retinue for a time to learn shit
I am also toying to create a kyroptera like group of course with a different name made up of Veterans who have each different skill of how to wage war and battle to be a advisering body for the Chapter master with smaller versions being added to each Company
Makes it so we separate Veterans from regular battle brothers
Of course its a wide stretch so any excess Veterans above the 100 we need to put in other postions
Like Company Veteran sergeant Company Honour Guard send to the deathwatch or create out of Chapter units that so that we can write them of the list
For example we loan out a Squad or 2 to a rogue trader for favors and any tech he finds
Special bodyguards for select individual's like the sector lord or navigator houses we can make a deal with like the space Wolves do
Special Squads that go around Hive-worlds to aid the arbites with the crime they travel to world to world via a gladious escort
Send some to the Inquisition to be part of a retinue for a time to learn shit
I am also toying to create a kyroptera like group of course with a different name made up of Veterans who have each different skill of how to wage war and battle to be a advisering body for the Chapter master with smaller versions being added to each Company
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
Veterans can't be spammed because they're just automatically created after Astartes become experienced enough and/or go through some really crazy shit.
That first one's just "What if... Honour Guard... but bigger?" I don't really think it's feasible, however. Veterans are rare enough already when you consider that Sergeants and Captains (and in our case Lieutenants too) in a Chapter are pretty much always supposed to be that. The rest are all fairly normal.
As for the Kyroptera thing, that's pretty much what the Honour Guard are supposed to be. They're not just great fighters, they're also experienced and skilled tacticians and diplomats who act as advisors and confidants to the Chapter Master. Every one of them is expected to be capable of commanding a full Company as well as an actual Captain would. Captains naturally already have bodyguards, almost always comprised of a handful of Veterans, who in turn would have served in every standard role during their career, from Scout to Devastator to Assault to Tactical.
We cant spam Veterans yes but we can still make the exuse of instead a 1000 it would be a 1100 with the 1 Company being regular battle brothers and the Veterans under the Chapter master
And no they wont be a inlarged Honour Guard because the honour is supposed to be the best of the best in terms of fighting skill to protect the Chapter master's live
And no they wont be a inlarged Honour Guard because the honour is supposed to be the best of the best in terms of fighting skill to protect the Chapter master's live
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
The 1st Company is also supposed to be the best of the best, due to being solely comprised of Veterans, and only those that have served there may have the honor of wearing Terminator Armor. I make the Honour Guard comparison because that is more or less the specified "personal force" of the Chapter Master in the Codex Astartes. Having "Honour Guard" then "Veteran Company" as both being the Chapter Master's own direct subordinates and associates is gonna be weird and with a lot of overlap. It's also not gonna get by the Ordo Astartes, considering this is literally just a full 11th Company, and the Chapter Master already has the authority to give orders to the standard 10.
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And for us the first Company and Veteran Company can be different you do know we are not a codex compliant chapter right
This is just a another part of it
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
I know it's not. My point is that you can't just make a full extra Company on top, with all the same functionality as a regular Company, and say "Hey we're fine, it's just full of Veterans only" and expect the Inquisition to let it slide. It's not like a typical 10th Company where most of the members are Neophytes and thus not counted as proper members of the Chapter, it's literally just a full-on Company. There isn't even the excuse that the Blood Ravens or the Blood Angels may have, where they field 50+ Librarians due to them obviously being specialists.
Honestly, I am hesitant to consider growing beyond Codex limits, mostly because we are about to start our first offensive campaign and I expect us to take serious losses there. And it's not like we were not losing people before that, in 8 turns almost half (221/500) of our original marines were lost. But this would be the first time we are going into enemy territory. And while this would be the first, I very much doubt it would be the last. So I think we should hold our horses for now.
Actually, as far as this topic is concerned we ARE a Codex Compliant chapter, and have been since the beginning. That initial vote didn't do anything to alter the number of Companies or "Line Brothers" we're allowed to have, it just changed how they were organized within the 10 Company scheme and tweaked a couple command positions.
"The Codex Astartes stated that each Chapter would be only one thousand battle-brothers strong and look to its own recruitment, training and wargear."
So i guees loaning out Battle Brothers to the inquisition, Rogue Traders, and protection detail of the sector govenor would be a good work around our linit of 1000 marines, as they would currently be too far away to add to "1000 strong" limit to the chapter. In addition to having more medics, tech marines, and chaplains.
So i guees loaning out Battle Brothers to the inquisition, Rogue Traders, and protection detail of the sector govenor would be a good work around our linit of 1000 marines, as they would currently be too far away to add to "1000 strong" limit to the chapter. In addition to having more medics, tech marines, and chaplains.
- Location
- the Netherworld Dood
I'd advise against seconding brothers to the inquisition directly that almost certainly get them drawn into inquisitional politics and end up either killed or make us enemies .
Sector government would probably be considered just part of our patrols?
Lending a few squads to RT's however would be good for getting Allies a good source of loot (if we include getting dibs as part of the deal of having marine guards)
- Location
- the Netherworld Dood
I'll point out we are god damn NIGHT LORDS and you want to go poke the inquisition?