It's not wrong to make Friends in the Dungeon (Danmachi / Sanctioned [Worm])
Dopplerdee
Accident Prone(Yes the caps are necessary)
- Location
- Happy Place
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And as I said its later shown Hestia is that important to have the respect and ear of The Elder Gods and connections to a lot of big names along with respect.
The main problem is that shes also Hestia and as such too nice to pull shit most times.
- Location
- Terra-Luna
I think there might also be considerable aversion towards pissing off basically everyone else along with her, too, for that matter. Plenty of gods raise some kind of shenanigans pissing of someone in a way that comes across as justified or simply have opposing interests in the first place, but Hestia is sort of simultaneously everyone's big sister and little sister figure, kind of, or perhaps mother analogue, aunt, niece... some kind of family. She's genuinely on everyone's side outside outside of perhaps universally despised truly evil gods—and maybe not even then, really—and at worst simply has a neutral relationship with wanderers; picking on Hestia thus can be a good way to evoke a "Dude, what the hell?" reaction. Acting like she's some kind of enemy comes across as unreasonable, and perhaps offensive as well as stupid, and when basically anyone and everyone has that kind of opinion of her, that includes the big names like the aforementioned Zeus who makes an undesirable enemy all by himself on top of the issue of picking a fight with the goddess with the purview as close to home as it gets. Her power and nature are one and the same, so getting on the bad side of the goddess presiding over family inherently means dealing with everyone influenced by Hestia being Hestia, because that's what the nature of her divinity means.
Appropriately enough, that nature is continuing the trend in the mortal world very well. Her capacity to deliberately just reach out and change the world to her whims is curtailed, but even with their Arcanum withheld, a god is still a god, as good at what they do as it gets... and what are all these gods doing here? Ah, how convenient. Familia. She knows a thing or two about that. The name of the game in Orario is family, and no one knows it like the goddess of it. In fact, a goddess whose very nature is idealised conceptualisation of family and home might very well be able to, say, find the perfect Familia members and bring them together in even an abandoned ruin, and do a very fine job of arranging for her children to get what they need with close friends and comrades along the way, all as quick as can be, to spectacular results. And if anyone objects, well, then they have to deal with the fact that Hestia's nature is a thing that exists.
I'm curious how revelation of QA's age might actually be received; I'm not sure that there would necessarily be much of a reaction no matter what the revelation might be. There was already the quip about elves due to lifespan differences, and QA is "known" to be a Spirit. People here have a concept of human standards not being appropriate, and Spirits aren't even mortal. That she might be far older than her physical appearance would suggest by human metrics may be no more surprising than the fact that the same applies to Hestia herself, just one of the aspects that is normal for the setting. People are still puzzling over the idea of Spirits even being born at all, though they do have to have some kind of origin, and Aiz's own lineage is a testament to insufficient understanding in the common knowledge of Spirits. I think QA's age might elicit a somewhat subdued reaction over the age itself, though implications that might be drawn from said age for how it might play into other ideas could perhaps be of considerably greater interest, particularly where her mysterious homeland is concerned.
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
She is probably serval times over older than the oldest god, if nit for the mortals, I think the gods will at least react.
- Location
- Finland
Well i didn't get that far, so no idea of later revelations.
But the early depiction of her, of how she acts, the way she is treated, everything, speaks not of a person who is basicly among the most powerful and influential gods in her pantheon.
I'm not talking about her in the light novel/anime, but in greek myths.
Hades, and Hestia, simply do not get depicted in negative light (no, kidnapping Persephone does not count here).
Like, goddess of the hearth, home, family (and ton of other stuff) failing to recruit anyone for 50 times and in desperation starting to follow some mortal?
Yeah...
I get that more capable and self assured goddess from the word go would have changed the story from what the author wanted to tell, but then he could have found another goddess, or invented one of their own, or told another story.
Or they could do as they did, and seeing how well the story has done for itself, i guess it was not a bad decision, just not one i personally liked.
DarkHabit
Soldier of Twilight
- Location
- the border of good and evil
The answer is January 15, 2013.
Dopplerdee
Accident Prone(Yes the caps are necessary)
- Location
- Happy Place
- Pronouns
- She/Her
In part its because the gods don't really care if you don't have power to back shit up. The drove Hera and Zeus out after they lost the power to fight despite the respect.
The other part is that they know Hestia won't pull shit, even against people she hates she doesn't retaliate past a point because that who she is.
- Location
- Finland
And none of that matters, because my problem is not about internal story consistency.
No matter how much sense it all makes within the story, does not change that we have a major goddess, one of the biggest names of her pantheon, being turned into a moe waifu we are all meant to feel sorry for and protective of (atleast at the beginning).
It's not an objective evaluation, but a matter of taste.
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
Isn't it canon?
- Location
- Finland
Isn't what canon?
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
Hestia not being treated as a big deal, being poor and having had no familia until she got lucky.
- Location
- Finland
Yes, that is canon, but my dislike of it is matter of personal taste, others are free to enjoy the story.
I suspect Hestia was used because she is not that well known these days (as she is not really in any of the big stories most of us are familiar with), and she is what she is because this is a harem anime/linght novel, and competent women who do not need someone to save them (physically, emmotionally, socially, etc...) don't help the plot.
Decade ago i probably would hav enjoyed Danmachi a lot more, but tastes change overtime.
- Location
- Terra-Luna
That... wouldn't really be DanMachi much at all, though, is the problem. The versions of the gods in-setting are pretty loosely based on their mythological counterparts because this is ultimately an anime/manga setting. Moreover, because of the fundamental setting differences with all of the gods from all of the pantheons in play, never going away no matter what, and descending, it isn't mutually exclusive with gods having been more in line with their mythological representations only for change to occur as the formerly more or less fixed world state got upended with the en masse descensions. Like Dopplerdee said, she is respected as someone who can be on casual terms with important gods, but with the important corollary that respect doesn't count for anything in the game that is the mortal world with no real stakes to the absolute and eternal players that are the gods beyond loss of entertainment. Basically, Hestia joined the hot new MMO as a level one scrub, and no one cares about her day job, or about her at all until she starts making her character impressive.
Yeah, Hestia's idea of being "mean" to someone tends to run along more along the lines of living well as revenge and just kind of being petty about rubbing it in the face of her "enemies". If someone makes fun of her Familia for being small and unimportant, whatever god had the gall knows that they don't need to worry about her deciding to creatively downsize their own Familia to match or whatever, or even try to undermine them by poaching kills in the Dungeon or barring shops, or the like. Instead, Hestia is the sort to be more inclined to pretend that she wasn't waiting to see when the target of her ire was going to head to Mia's to celebrate some success and then "just so happen" to decide to do the same at the same time and speak a little unnecessarily loudly about how she's treating her Familia for doing so well. She's... kind of an anti-jerk?
- Location
- Finland
You say a problem, i say an opportunity.
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Kellcat
Occasional Ex-Lurker
- Location
- Texas
Of course, on the other hand, we've got the example of the Familia curse laid by a "spirit" in retaliation for the attack on Hestia's Familia. Hestia is too nice to retaliate harshly, but Hestia's children won't operate in exactly the same way. So far, "the shard spirit" has only gone after Ishtar in any sort of heavy-handed way, but if the gods are thinking in terms of Hestia-Familia's available resources and possible responses, there's a fairly significant level of escalation known to be available above Hestia's response. How that meshes with (or doesn't, as the case may be) various gods' pride (and idiocy) and how that makes them react to Hestia Familia is...an interesting question, from the perspective of "the game".
- Location
- Terra-Luna
I'm genuinely confused why you're here in the first place, then. This is a DanMachi fic; DanMachi is thus integral to the fic, and should be expected to be so. If DanMachi is disliked, then... what's the point of reading a DanMachi fic, or making a point about how unlikable it is as a factor when it's supposed to feature?You say a problem, i say an opportunity.
Indeed. Nice though she herself is, she can in many ways sort of afford to be as she is, because of how she is. The goddess of family is amazing at winning people over by one degree or another, and where in heaven she was something of a problem to actually meaningfully attack for the reaction that would be provoked, so too does that hold true in the mortal world now that she's gathered ideal family members and friends of the family in a mirror of the former setup. The Familia angle really does play to her strengths.
- Location
- Finland
Because i like Alivaril's writing and what they are doing with the setting?
It's not a crime to not like everything about a setting, or the source material.
I mentioned how i disliked one specific part (and some unspecified others) about Danmachi, only to have people come and tell me how i am wrong, so i try to explain why my opinion is what it is.
It's not wrong to like Danmachi, i don't, but i can see why other people do, i would have liked it ten years ago, i don't today, i just don't like it in general, and actively dislike some specific things about it.
I don't hate it, there are some animes i hate with a passion, and you won't see my in any fics about them, but Danmachi, nah, i don't hate it, it is, as far as i could tell, fairly competent fantasy harem, the setting is more interesting than many, but not strong enough to pull my attention on its own.
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I don't usually associate Worm with happy/recovering shards being more-or-less helpful-and-productive members of the community and pretty much stumbling over infinite energy. There is room to pick and choose aspects of a setting. Then there is parody, deconstruction, contrast, fix-fic... grabbing a setting purely to directly oppose it is not polite, but is pretty much an accepted practice.
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
Yes, but comedies also usually have comedic content woven throughout. Also, I really doubt this one is ending unhappily, given the situation.
Honestly, IIRC, I think the implication was that Odin was just really, really lonely without his pet ravens. Well, either that, or he was seriously feeling his half-blindness.
Oh, come on. It's not that baaaaa-d.
*ducks thrown tomatoes*
To some extent, I think that's because, in Orario, your power and position in Heaven doesn't mean dick, beyond any friendly connections or relationships you fostered. Your Familia's power is what's important. That's why Zeus and Hera, when they lost their most powerful Children, fell from their thrones within a year. While neither Loki nor Freya are small-fries mythologically, they're also not on the level of Zeus or Hera, and yet they took their place. The leveled playing field is part of the appeal in descending from Heaven: even small-time deities have a chance to rise to the top. While Hestia might be a powerful or influential deity in Heaven, that doesn't mean she'll thrive in the mortal plane.
In some ways, I think Hestia drew the short straw due to where she landed. She came down close enough to Orario that she could see it, and reach it within the day. The problem is, as Hestia discovered, few people in Orario are going to be the first to join a Goddess without a Familia to back her. It's a risk, and they'd rather join a Familia that has an established base. That being the case, Hestia seriously lucked out in finding Bell in-canon. Whereas, in Loki's case, she ended up far enough away from Orario that she had a chance to gather some promising mortals, like Finn, before she ever came to the city itself. That meant she didn't have to send a single person into the Dungeon alone, but rather could send in a team. I expect most other deities in Orario gathered up at least a small Familia before going to the city as well.
Eh. I can see why that might rub you the wrong way, but I think it's just part of how the setting works. Major goddess or not, her abilities and focus don't give her that much of an edge in Orario. Freya's eye for souls (probably a reference to her dominion over Fólkvangr, which is where half of those who die in combat go, the other half going to Valhalla) combined with her charm ability gives her a massive edge over most Gods. In Loki's case, her trickster's instincts and sharp mind serve her well in Orario's rough environment. Hephaestus and other crafting deities have their skills to help support themselves, and they can instruct their Children in those skills, thus automatically attracting at least some people. But Hestia's sphere...doesn't give her too many advantages when starting in Orario itself. Maybe if she founded a non-Exploration Familia or an inn, she'd be doing better. But not so much for a combat focused one. Especially not when she's recruiting in Orario. Way too much competition for recruits in the city itself.
Honestly, though, I think Hestia, as a goddess fits the themes of the story perfectly. Her Familia is just that: a family. A (relatively) welcoming place for all the misfits and strays Bell's heroic tendencies attract, as well as Bell himself. The Goddess of the Hearth being the main goddess in story about building a Familia just...fits. I dunno, maybe there are better choices out there. But I think she fits the bill for a story like DanMachi. Her character, though, is another matter entirely. I can definitely understand you having a problem with that. She's an excellent choice for the themes of the story itself, but her character is not particularly flattering, no. Still, if she was ultra-competent at the start, I don't think she would be as good a match for the sort of "start at rock bottom, work your way to the top with determination (and bullsh*t OP skills)" story that DanMachi is trying to be.
Honestly, though, I find that Loki leading a warm, welcoming, fairly honest Familia feels way weirder to me. Loki is many things in Norse mythology. A leader and major force for stability is not usually one of them.
I can name several female characters that fit that description fairly well and do help the plot extremely, though. Freya and Loki, just right off the bat. Several in Sword Oratorio, like Riveria. Tsubaki. Probably more I'm not thinking of. Oh, sure, they're mostly supporting characters. Doesn't mean they aren't helping the plot. Hell, just because it's a harem story, doesn't mean every female character falls for the main character, either. Hephaestus, for instance.
Also, I'm sorry, but a major character that doesn't need "saving" (as in, experiencing some from of flaw or distress that they need the main character's help to overcome) in some respect aren't major characters. Almost every major-yet-not protagonist characters in pretty much every form of media needs the main character's help at some point or another. That's kinda how they impact the plot, because plots are generally fairly main-character centered. The only exception would be if the major character does all the saving. And that can get real boring, real fast.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of DanMachi's female cast does suffer due the harem aspect. It's part of why I tend to enjoy SO a lot more than the main series. But them needing a hand sometimes, physically, emotionally, or socially is not the problem. That help not being reciprocated in a substantial fashion, but rather purely in romantic interest, is the bigger issue.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's less that I think you're wrong, and more that I think your critique is a bit...off-base, I guess, or possibly poorly phrased. Admittedly, I don't really do anime, as I read at such a voracious pace that anime feel slow as a snail in molasses. Maybe it's notably worse than the LN and manga. I can't say. Regardless, you are missing a little of the context of what's going on if you're not too familiar with the source material. Not much, as Alivaril's fairly good about that sort of thing. But, as with all fan fic, there are references and the like mixed in that might fly over your head.
Also, SO might be labeled as a spin-off, but it's honestly a lot better, IMO, and doesn't really require the reading main series to understand what's going on. So I'd maybe consider checking it out if you haven't already. It's also rather more relevant to this story than DanMachi itself, in many ways, because Loki Familia hasn't been all that drastically altered by QA's presence.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I suspect that is because Loki doesn't actually run her famila. They treat her a bit like a mascot that they often have to clean up after.
Edit: A bit like Luffy in the strawhat priates.
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No, I meant really old definitions of comedy, like the Divine Comedy.
Nothing funny in that...and now that I searched the Tropes page, it apparently has 3 entries in the Funny page.
- Location
- Germany
Only one of those is in the work itself, instead of being something modern about the work. Your point stands.
- Location
- Here
Reminds me of a D&D character I ran once... was genuinely under the impression that things like "when going from place to place, pass through the space between them" and "have basically the same face today as yesterday" were a matter of manners.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
To be fair, there's many parts in Divine Comedy that were obviously intended to be funny. It's just that most of them either require lengthy footnotes to be understood (like all the jabs against Dante's contemporaries he didn't like), or so bigoted that all the humour evaporates, or both (like any joke at expense of "florentines").
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
Yes and no. But I was more referring to how she seems to have a tendency to play detective and work to increase the stability of Orario.
Yeah, and so was I. I'm thinking of the ones that date back to Ancient Greece, where the term came from in the first place. Greek comedies could still be humorous. Many were. Some weren't, but there's a reason that mask is smiling/laughing.
Also this. Though it runs deeper than just jabs against those he didn't like. They weren't just those he disliked, but his political enemies. And Dante was a Florentine. He was born in Florence. And he was exiled from his home for political reasons. Because, while he was visiting Rome, someone else invaded the city, burned much of it down, killed most of those who disagreed with them politically, and installed a government more to their liking. That government then that exiled those, like Dante, who were fortunate enough to have been elsewhere, for 2 years and charged them a huge fine. Given that situation, I thinking calling his jabs towards his fellow citizens of Florence "bigoted" might be a little much. The Divine Comedy, or at least the Inferno, was a brilliant piece of political satire that aired the dirty laundry of Dante's political rivals, written in the language of the common folk.