Into that Vast and Unrelenting Darkness (40K Xeno Civilization Quest)

"And erode their culture? Never! Dying of famine, conflict, economic collapse.... Its all character building for the people as a whole!"

The problem is it wouldn't erode their culture, it would, if you fucked up, destroy their culture, potentially by causing some of the very things you listed!

First, you need to remember again that the entire industrial output of a pre-space flight species is likely, depending on how developed they are, to be a *rounding error* to your economy: even IRL, without such extreme disparities, poorly planned humanitarian and material aid can wind up crashing economies even worse. See how shoe donations to poverty stricken countries winds up destroying native shoe-manufacturing. I want you to imaging that for every job, every industry, or hell, even just, say, 20% of all major industries: that's vast swathes of society whose job you just deleted. Now, sure, if they have UBI or other robust safety nets the end result wouldn't be so bad, but A: part of the idea behind economic aid is that it's targeted at less developed nations, typically ones in crisis, which probably means they probably don't have the social or economic conditions for that to be possible, B: all of this requires not fucking it up, which brings us to reason number two!

Second, while the idea of teaching people better technology and providing material to improve their lives sound noble, there runs incredible risk of you pulling an oopsie. Like, to use another example, imagine aliens come down to Earth, look at the state of things, and decide to improve the situation on earth by giving advanced technology to humanity. The big question is, who do they give it to: who do they trust to use that technology ethically? How do they give it: how do you introduce it without upending their way of life or accidentally indoctrinating them? Hell, what do they give, because every technology has the potential to redefine how people live in substantial ways. Sure, they could hand the tech over to the USA, but speaking as a native american, I sure as hell wouldn't trust the US Government to use alien technology responsibly or in a way that benefitted everyone equally, not without a great deal of social development and political changes. More likely, they'd use the technology to increase American hegemony over the world, and that's assuming a moderate is in office: I don't think anyone wants to imagine what a particularly *bad* administration with access to alien technology would be like. And that's assuming the aliens pick the USA: it could just as easily decide China or Britain or some other state should have it, or they could really screw the pooch and give it to EVERY state power and accidentally start another arms race, and I really hope I don't need to explain why that's double-plus-ungood. And that's just the surface level (seriously, I want you to imagine every way your tech could be abused by less moral state actors: there is a great deal of potential for bad things) danger of technology specifically: we're not even getting into how politically destabilizing post-scarcity aliens deliberately trying to influence politics could potentially be. And that's assuming this is all done with 100% pure intentions to help people, something that cannot be guaranteed.

Third, and this is mostly a point of correction: you seem to be conflating material aid (you providing resources and technology) with what the God Machines did during the Destroyer War (preventing you from being rendered violently extinct, something the Directorate would step in to prevent should they come across it regardless of specific policy chosen): these are actually pretty substantially different things! To be clear, the God-Machines didn't really hand you tech: they traded some technology with you way after (see the Sphere deal) in exchange for very substanial resources, and may have nudged development slightly here and there, but they didn't hand you their techbase, all they did was roflstomp the destroyers and go back to sleep for the most part. (Also you probably shouldn't treat the C'tan as a role model, even the nice ones.)
 
Whatever we do regarding aliens, we'll still have species incapable of defending themselves for hundreds if not thousand of years.

I mean lets be honest, the Tekket do not have the ability to defend themselves not really, we just got lucky, hell the Tau which are a multi-sector Empire survive mostly at the sufferance of the Imperium for not being worth the effort to wipe out. We are playing a species that got mildly lucky in the Dark Forest that is the 40K Milky Way only to make sweeping statements about cultural development and their responsibility to the culture of other species.
 
The Destroyers are probably more so our technological patrons than the god machines.
...and maybe the vast amounts of scrap we found.

To be fair, our culture and development path is kind of founded on that scrap and to a degree reverse engineering. So that, combined with the absence of active intervention/communication, probably makes this a non-issue.

I mean lets be honest, the Tekket do not have the ability to defend themselves not really, we just got lucky, hell the Tau which are a multi-sector Empire survive mostly at the sufferance of the Imperium for not being worth the effort to wipe out. We are playing a species that got mildly lucky in the Dark Forest that is the 40K Milky Way only to make sweeping statements about cultural development and their responsibility to the culture of other species.
I mean, yeah.
The difference being that aliens without even modern technology would be absolutely powerless against even the smallest space-faring force, while we have at least a fighting chance against lesser enemies.
We are also constantly improving, while the technological progress over a hundred years of industrialization are basically negligible in terms of defensibility.

Also, lucky people can make sweeping statements and be right, as long as they are aware of how they got to where they are and their logic is sound. For example, the idea that we must prepare as much as we can, because we can't expect to be lucky twice seems pretty legit. Similarly, the idea that other species are more vulnerable than us due to not having nice god machines to save them.
 
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It occurs to me that just talking to the people in the space station would probably be the best way to sort out the situation in this area, and whether or not we should get involved at all here.

You know, given that they're probably from around here and know the situation better.
 
there's also the fact that social development must keep apace with technological developments. Otherwise, you get species nuking eachover for funsies. What we'd be doing is giving them material and the knowledge, but not the institutions to actually deal with them.
 
The Destroyers are probably more so our technological patrons than the god machines.
...and maybe the vast amounts of scrap we found.

To be fair, our culture and development path is kind of founded on that scrap and to a degree reverse engineering. So that, combined with the absence of active intervention/communication, probably makes this a non-issue.


I mean, yeah.
The difference being that aliens without even modern technology would be absolutely powerless against even the smallest space-faring force, while we have at least a fighting chance against lesser enemies.
We are also constantly improving, while the technological progress over a hundred years of industrialization are basically negligible in terms of defensibility.

Also, lucky people can make sweeping statements and be right, as long as they are aware of how they got to where they are and their logic is sound. For example, the idea that we must prepare as much as we can, because we can't expect to be lucky twice seems pretty legit. Similarly, the idea that other species are more vulnerable than us due to not having nice god machines to save them.

I do not think we can, not about literal space aliens. It is unreasonable to believe we could judge the dangers of alien contact having never witnessed peaceful alien contact IMO. We do not know what we do not know, because just as alien biology is distinct from us so is alien culture and alien psychology, one size fits all 'treat them like they are our species but with less tech' may be morally soothing, it is not I think intellectually rigorous.

Speaking of that, do you know who had a prime directive and refused to help primitives in 40K? The Old Ones, after all what if those Necrontyr were dying of radiation poisoning and the instability of their own genetic code, making them immortal would only hurt them. Not to mention that one would lose on on the unique death culture. Where else would you be able to film a planet sized necropolis for the Old One version of National Geographic?

And nothing bad happened because of that choice. :V
 
The problem is it wouldn't erode their culture, it would, if you fucked up, destroy their culture, potentially by causing some of the very things you listed!

First, you need to remember again that the entire industrial output of a pre-space flight species is likely, depending on how developed they are, to be a *rounding error* to your economy: even IRL, without such extreme disparities, poorly planned humanitarian and material aid can wind up crashing economies even worse. See how shoe donations to poverty stricken countries winds up destroying native shoe-manufacturing. I want you to imaging that for every job, every industry, or hell, even just, say, 20% of all major industries: that's vast swathes of society whose job you just deleted. Now, sure, if they have UBI or other robust safety nets the end result wouldn't be so bad, but A: part of the idea behind economic aid is that it's targeted at less developed nations, typically ones in crisis, which probably means they probably don't have the social or economic conditions for that to be possible, B: all of this requires not fucking it up, which brings us to reason number two!

Second, while the idea of teaching people better technology and providing material to improve their lives sound noble, there runs incredible risk of you pulling an oopsie. Like, to use another example, imagine aliens come down to Earth, look at the state of things, and decide to improve the situation on earth by giving advanced technology to humanity. The big question is, who do they give it to: who do they trust to use that technology ethically? How do they give it: how do you introduce it without upending their way of life or accidentally indoctrinating them? Hell, what do they give, because every technology has the potential to redefine how people live in substantial ways. Sure, they could hand the tech over to the USA, but speaking as a native american, I sure as hell wouldn't trust the US Government to use alien technology responsibly or in a way that benefitted everyone equally, not without a great deal of social development and political changes. More likely, they'd use the technology to increase American hegemony over the world, and that's assuming a moderate is in office: I don't think anyone wants to imagine what a particularly *bad* administration with access to alien technology would be like. And that's assuming the aliens pick the USA: it could just as easily decide China or Britain or some other state should have it, or they could really screw the pooch and give it to EVERY state power and accidentally start another arms race, and I really hope I don't need to explain why that's double-plus-ungood. And that's just the surface level (seriously, I want you to imagine every way your tech could be abused by less moral state actors: there is a great deal of potential for bad things) danger of technology specifically: we're not even getting into how politically destabilizing post-scarcity aliens deliberately trying to influence politics could potentially be. And that's assuming this is all done with 100% pure intentions to help people, something that cannot be guaranteed.

Third, and this is mostly a point of correction: you seem to be conflating material aid (you providing resources and technology) with what the God Machines did during the Destroyer War (preventing you from being rendered violently extinct, something the Directorate would step in to prevent should they come across it regardless of specific policy chosen): these are actually pretty substantially different things! To be clear, the God-Machines didn't really hand you tech: they traded some technology with you way after (see the Sphere deal) in exchange for very substanial resources, and may have nudged development slightly here and there, but they didn't hand you their techbase, all they did was roflstomp the destroyers and go back to sleep for the most part. (Also you probably shouldn't treat the C'tan as a role model, even the nice ones.)

This, incidentally, is why expect both of the Xeno-Preservationist approaches to fail.
Because you're, by definition, not starting contact unless the planet faces a massive, global crisis. So, when you do start contact, you now have to manage two simultanous crisises :
- A hurried, rushed, global contact
- Whatever the original problem was.

And you have to do all that with the available resources, which are actually pretty limited. I doubt we're going to be placing a city block in orbit of any inhabited planet we visit, so at best we get the crew of an outpost and maybe a nearby exploration vessel. That means about a thousand people. Most of whom won't have applicable skills, or xenocultural experience.

Xeno-isolationism manages to avoid this issue by reclassifying civilization wide collapse as good, actually.
I suppose the Xeno-Preparationists might be the best ones at mitigating a crisis, because they'd at least have experience talking to the aliens?
 
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[ X] Xeno-Preparationists
normally I'd be more Sympathetic to the preservation of cultures but warhammer is to dark forest to leave them unwary
 
The Old Ones, after all what if those Necrontyr were dying of radiation poisoning and the instability of their own genetic code, making them immortal would only hurt them.
old ones are not a good example cause they were the definition of we made you but we owe you nothing (all they did was seed the galaxy and not really much else if I recall) like knowing how our society is we would try to help but to the old ones they wouldn't care unless it effects them
 
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old ones are not a good example cause they were the definition of we made you but we owe you nothing (all they did was seed the galaxy) like knowing how our society is we would try to help but to the old ones they wouldn't care unless it effects them

We do not know that about them, indeed there are hints that only sheer desperation in the face of existentialist threat made them turn their life-shaping to making weapons. What we do know for sure is that when faced with a civilization in agony, but not facing extinction they refused to help.
 
We do not know that about them, indeed there are hints that only sheer desperation in the face of existentialist threat made them turn their life-shaping to making weapons. What we do know for sure is that when faced with a civilization in agony, but not facing extinction they refused to help.
Maybe the Old Ones just weren't comfortable giving super longevity to a race they literally just met. That also declared war on a more technologically advanced race when their demands/requests were denied.

Or maybe the Necrontyr were too cancer ridden for it to work anyway, who knows.
 
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Maybe the Old Ones just weren't comfortable giving super longevity to a race they literally just met. That also declared war on a more advanced race when their demands/requests were denied.

Or maybe the Necrontyr were too cancer ridden for it to work anyway, who knows.

Given that the Old Ones were greater that gods (literally gods were things they made) I do not think lack of capability was an issue. Also according to the timeline they had millennia to give in to the pleading, plenty of time to learn about the Necrontyr. Maybe at the scale they worked at that was still too little time, but if so that is a bit of an issue of its own I think.
 
I do not think we can, not about literal space aliens. It is unreasonable to believe we could judge the dangers of alien contact having never witnessed peaceful alien contact IMO. We do not know what we do not know, because just as alien biology is distinct from us so is alien culture and alien psychology, one size fits all 'treat them like they are our species but with less tech' may be morally soothing, it is not I think intellectually rigorous.
Ok so this comment just didn't make sense to me so I went back to see if there was some misunderstanding.
My reading of the first comment I responded to was in the range of "the Tekken merely got lucky, so they have no right/basis to decide anything or come to conclusions about other civilizations".
Which I disagreed with. Sure, if we looked at a thousand hypothetical civilizations, the ones that had some huge stroke of luck may be less reliable in their conclusions than the ones that didn't.
But statistics are not destiny. If someone's reasoning is sound, it's legit regardless of whether they were lucky or not.

On rereading, I think you main point may have been about how the policies are overly generalized, rather than individualized to fit each species encountered and their conditions and psychology. That is a much more understandable point. But to me it also has very little to do with the getting lucky thing, which is what drew my attention.
 
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Ok so this comment just didn't make sense to me so I went back to see if there was some misunderstanding.
My reading of the first comment I responded to was in the range of "the Tekken merely got lucky, so they have no right/basis to decide anything or come to conclusions about other civilizations".
Which I disagreed with. Sure, if we looked at a thousand hypothetical civilizations, the ones that had some huge stroke of luck may be less reliable in their conclusions than the ones that didn't.
But statistics are not destiny. If someone's reasoning is sound, it's legit regardless of whether they were lucky or not.

On rereading, I think you main point may have been about how the policies are overly generalized, rather than individualized to fit each species encountered and their conditions and psychology. That is a much more understandable point. But to me it also has very little to do with the getting lucky thing, which is what drew my attention.

Sorry I was unclear, the reason I brought up luck and how long on the galactic food chain we are is to point out that as a civilization we have not had much time to grow wise enough to generalize and I followed that up with an example of how the oldest and wisest species the galaxy has ever known still messed up when dealing with aliens. There is no clear answer, but I fear preservationist is the easy one that wills see the least reexamination until it bites us in the ass.
 
We do not know that about them,
excatly so we cant do anything but judge by what we do know about them like they didn't do anything for the necrons despite probably being able to (and then after their war left them in their home system unable to leave, now this one is to be taken with a grain of salt cause the deciever said it but they also fought the c'tan and then left them, I am also pretty sure the khrave (since if I recall they were around at the time) were around at this point and considering that even the ones in 40k who have lost they really power members to the lion could take over worlds implies (if they were around) either the old ones knew and nothing or they didn't know to me implies they were watchers once they seeded life

edit: also I think better factions to compare for uplifting are funny enough the eldar who taught the interex about chaos (pretty badly) and the tau in a way cause both have a lot of flaws in their approaches and the only two that remotely do that
 
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Is there any way we could make contact and allow people who want to migrate to one of our enclaves do so then? I get how full body societal interaction could be damaging... But I also can't help but think that putting culture over people's lives is bad too. Maybe an element of choice? Where we open up some embassies or enclaves and accept people who want to join up in Starfleet or want an education and work opportunities off world?
 
Is there any way we could make contact and allow people who want to migrate to one of our enclaves do so then? I get how full body societal interaction could be damaging... But I also can't help but think that putting culture over people's lives is bad too. Maybe an element of choice? Where we open up some embassies or enclaves and accept people who want to join up in Starfleet or want an education and work opportunities off world?
In order for that to work we would have to interfere, tell them many things of our society which is likely to be a thousand times better than theirs. You'd likely see a mass migration and the indigenous economy would grind to a bloody halt due to a lack of people.
 
or they could really screw the pooch and give it to EVERY state power and accidentally start another arms race, and I really hope I don't need to explain why that's double-plus-ungood.
I have to heavily disagree. There is little reason why such event would cause large-scale political tension. If anything , most governments would be much more internal focused (for at least some time) , since adopting new technology would be just way more beneficial than rushing to conquer your neighbors. It won't be a politically viable decision too , since jump in productivity and , consequently , quality of life , would already grant those in power HUGE popular support. And even if some madman head of state would be really obsessed with Big Shiny Guns and ways to use them , benevolent aliens could simply force them to stop doing dangerous things (likely getting support from the rest of the world). Overall , even if we take into account minor inconveniences caused by the sheer scale and unpredictability of system like an entire civilisation , giving specifically tech to everyone possible (I am not talking about humanitarian aid here) is very net positive. And even in worst-case scenario , trying and failing is morally superior to not even bothering and letting tons of people continue their suffering without any help since you were afraid
 
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