Into that Vast and Unrelenting Darkness (40K Xeno Civilization Quest)

[X] Xeno-Preparationists

We live in 40K, more to the point so do any cultures we contact, if we find people of lower tech level we should do all we can to prepare them for what's out. Neither we nor they have the luxury of worrying about preserving culture.
 
[X] Xeno-Preparationists: The hard-interventionist option: diplomatic contact would be established, information would be relayed, but no material assistance outside civilization shattering calamities. That way, societies could prepare for the Destroyers. This would cause unpredictable damage to said culture, but it was seen by many as an acceptable compromise in the name of survival.
 
I can't help but find the idea of deliberately letting people die of starvation, disease, and conflict because you'd rather preserve their culture is pretty monstrous.
 
Second idea, another option, the choice to balance out help received by giving something in return. This is purely about them, instead of being reliant on handouts, they simply exchange something they have in abundance for something they really need. For example, if they need some medicine and have an abundance of food, they exchange food for medicine and the Tekket go dump the food in a sun or something because, lets be honest, the Tekket have more than enough food.
That just twists their economy into becoming a pure extractive industry for whatever resource gets chosen, because Tekket technology is just that much better.

Your example scenario would lead to quickly increasing food prices as everyone tries to hoard food to exchange for advanced technology.
 
I mean all the options do that

Watching people die on mass in preventable ways for the sake of 'culture'. No matter what disruptions the introduction of greater technology causes in the short run in the long run their lives will become vastly better and they will be more ready for the horrors that might kill them without warning otherwise because this is 40K. I feel that in this one regard Star Trek logic fails in the setting, there are too many monsters among these stars.
 
Yeah, but if you go in and colonize them, they all die anyway.

History is pretty clear on what happens when a big, highly advanced civilization moves in on a small, primitive one. Mass chaos and death among the primitives whether the advanced civilization wanted it or not, casual exploitation, again whether the advanced civilization wanted it or not, and frequently horrid disease outbreaks as diseases that are adapted to much better medicine rampage through the primitive population faster than doctors can chase them and kill off half the population.
And that's assuming you can even actually get the food distributed among a population that often has garbage logistics for distributing food evenly, without turning said population into glorified slaves.
 
Yeah, but if you go in and colonize them, they all die anyway.

History is pretty clear on what happens when a big, highly advanced civilization moves in on a small, primitive one. Mass chaos and death among the primitives whether the advanced civilization wanted it or not, casual exploitation, again whether the advanced civilization wanted it or not, and frequently horrid disease outbreaks as diseases that are adapted to much better medicine rampage through the primitive population faster than doctors can chase them and kill off half the population.
And that's assuming you can even actually get the food distributed among a population that often has garbage logistics for distributing food evenly, without turning said population into glorified slaves.

I do not think we are carrying any space plagues, there is no reason for our biology to be compatible with theirs. I mean sure if we get Nurgle plagues in the warp those will carry over, but then the problem is the Nurgle plagues.
 
I do not think we are carrying any space plagues, there is no reason for our biology to be compatible with theirs. I mean sure if we get Nurgle plagues in the warp those will carry over, but then the problem is the Nurgle plagues.
We don't have to be carrying plagues, even normal benign (to us) bacteria would do it. The fact that our biology isn't compatible is exactly the reason why there would be massive outbreaks.
 
We don't have to be carrying plagues, even normal benign (to us) bacteria would do it. The fact that our biology isn't compatible is exactly the reason why there would be massive outbreaks.

Incompatible biology is perfect immunity since they bacteria are not able to find the pathways into the other side's sells. Humans do not get coral bacteria, nevermind beings that were the product of divergent evolution on different planets
 
Incompatible biology is perfect immunity since they bacteria are not able to find the pathways into the other side's sells. Humans do not get coral bacteria, nevermind beings that were the product of divergent evolution on different planets

it's perfect immunity until it isn't. It wouldn't take too long before it'd cross over, and at that point, you'd be dealing with a civilization ending catastrophe that you caused. Nevermind the fact that it doesn't address all the other issues of colonization, because that's what we'd be doing, no matter how you spin it. There's a reason why we haven't gone to the Sentinel islands to 'civilize' the stone-age natives there.
 
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Plus, given that the majority of life was created by the Old Ones, I doubt the majority of aliens we meet will be too incompatible. Maybe if we meet silicon based life forms then I'd agree but the vast majority are going to be reasonably similar to us.
 
it's perfect immunity until it isn't. It wouldn't take too long before it'd cross over, and at that point, you'd be dealing with a civilization ending catastrophe that you caused. Nevermind the fact that it doesn't address all the other issues of colonization, because that's what we'd be doing, no matter how you spin it.

Why? How? This feels like Jurassic Park logic, only with even more shaky science behind it. Secondly I am dubious at the notion that standing and letting a tragedy happen is somehow more morally upstanding than causing it accidentally, that only works if you are arguing against some higher authority IMO, like a judge in a court of law or a god when debating sin, but when the only arbitrator of your morality is yourself causing suffering from inaction and from poorly thought action seem to me at least to be much the same.

The reason I am not addressing he other issues is because I feel they are covered by this is 40K, where death and worse than death are commonplace for helpless species.

Plus, given that the majority of life was created by the Old Ones, I doubt the majority of aliens we meet will be too incompatible. Maybe if we meet silicon based life forms then I'd agree but the vast majority are going to be reasonably similar to us.

This is a fair point, though unless I am mistaken not one the Tekket would know IC.
 
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Why? How? This feels like Jurassic Park logic, only with even more shaky science behind it. Secondly I am dubious at the notion that standing and letting a tragedy happen is somehow more morally upstanding than causing it accidentally, that only works if you are arguing against some higher authority IMO, like a judge in a court of law or a god when debating sin, but when the only arbitrator of your morality is yourself causing suffering from inaction and from poorly thought action seem to me at least to be much the same.

The reason I am not addressing he other issues is because I feel they are covered by this is 40K, where death and worse than death are commonplace for helpless species.



This is a fair point, though unless I am mistaken not one the Tekket would know IC.

do you realize that a lot of our most dangerous diseases as humans are transmitted from other animals? It's not Jurassic park logic, considering this was the case with bats with both Covid and Ebola. Any sort of prolonged contact will cause the virus to cross over, and cause devastating damage, especially to a world without modern medical technologies.
 
do you realize that a lot of our most dangerous diseases as humans are transmitted from other animals? It's not Jurassic park logic, considering this was the case with bats with both Covid and Ebola. Any sort of prolonged contact will cause the virus to cross over, and cause devastating damage, especially to a world without modern medical technologies.

All animals on earth are related to us, all tetrapods are closely related in evolutionary terms. Actual no-kidding space aliens would not be, there is no reason why their cells would have any commonality to ours on a biochemical level. Thus a virus could only jump species if it was warp based, since those just ignore the rules of boring old material reality or if both the Tekket and the other species were Old One Projects from related stock.
 
[X] Xeno-Preservationist: A slightly more interventionist version of the Xeno-Isolationist party that still embraced minimal contact with species that were less technologically developed, but permitted humanitarian aid in response civilization collapsing catastrophes as opposed to having extinction level events be the benchmark for when the Directorate needed to step in.

[X] Extreme Xeno-Preservationist: The Moderate Xeno-Preservationist stance was fairly similar to its extreme version, with the caveat that it had looser standards for when a civilization was considered mature enough to establish official contact and relations with. The extreme version meanwhile argued that the benchmark for making contact should be set at the development of warp-space technology, under the logic that in the coming centuries the Directorate would likely grow to the point it's economic output outstripped many star systems: the same dilemma they already had was likely to grow exponentially worse.


While the concerns about the disruption of other cultures by Tekketi intervention are well-founded, I think the fact that the first system with abundant evidence of developed sapient life also shows all signs of having been on the wrong end of a Waaagh! makes for a powerful argument in favour of more interventionist policies.
The point of this decision for the Tekket is to find what's the best way(or least likely to incur the heaviest cost) to preserve sapient life, and the overabundance of threats in the 40K galaxy means a culture that collapses on itself is left in an extremely vulnerable position; probably even beyond the capacity of the current Directorate to aid. Far more expedient to try and nip the problem in the bud.

Also, I would like to point out the wording on the preservationist choices seems to imply that even on the kind of emergency that would require the intervention of the Directorate, the Tekket would strive to keep any contact limited to the immediate aid the endangered species would require.

And while the topic remains aiding other species: exploring the strange space station on the system should be a priority. If it really is advanced enough to act as an enclosed ecosystem, there's a really slim chance some of the planet's original inhabitants could have sought refuge there.
Even if it's deserted, there's much the Tekket could learn of its design, and studying it may help the Tekket piece together the story of the system.
 
[-] Extreme Xeno-Preparationists: Diplomatic contact, humanitarian aid, material assistance. This position is considered too fringe to gain traction.
"Should we maybe help-"
"And erode their culture? Never! Dying of famine, conflict, economic collapse.... Its all character building for the people as a whole!"
"But, what about all those people who actually do die and suffer because of their primitive tools?"
"You can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs, Jack, and letting a civilisation grow on its own is the mother of all eggs. No, if anything we're lucky to have never interacting with any other species and overcoming all our challenges alone-who knows what a hellish landscape our society might be like if some outside power intervened in our favour and used their tremendous technological advantage to help us out..."
"But didn't those machine gods-"

"Lalalala, prime directive!"
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In case it's not clear I don't like how this isn't an option, when we already benefited from it etc. This isn't like Trek Earth where Mankind didn't require any help to get on their feet.
 
The Tekket spent a while as involuntary test subjects for some Mecanicus plauge-engineers during the invasion.

Having engineered diseases capable of species jumping lurking around is a fairly legitimate concern in my opinion.
 
Yeah, but if you go in and colonize them, they all die anyway.

History is pretty clear on what happens when a big, highly advanced civilization moves in on a small, primitive one. Mass chaos and death among the primitives whether the advanced civilization wanted it or not, casual exploitation, again whether the advanced civilization wanted it or not, and frequently horrid disease outbreaks as diseases that are adapted to much better medicine rampage through the primitive population faster than doctors can chase them and kill off half the population.
And that's assuming you can even actually get the food distributed among a population that often has garbage logistics for distributing food evenly, without turning said population into glorified slaves.
Yeah, as much as SB/SV loves to fetishise uplift stories a lot of of them ignore the real life instances of that kind of thing going horrible wrong. With the biggest examples being the mass murder and even genocide of countless less advanced/primitive people's by technologically advanced ones throughout history. Then there is the issue of cultures imposing their own values on others to the point of committing cultural genocide and outright erasing a people's identity.

Like it doesn't seem to have occurred to people that even if we do ally with other races if we make it a thing that we think it's alright to get involved in less developed people's lives that they may think it's alright to do the same. Which is an issue when you take into account that they may do things in ways we don't really agree with even if they genuinely think it's for the less developed races own good.

That is pretty much the main thing that a lot of sci fi fans give aliens shit for in sci fi stories. Heck, it's what the Imperium does all the time. Yeah we aren't the Imperium and our allies are likely to be nowhere near as bad but it would probably be a good idea to avoid setting precedents of more advanced races getting too involved with the development of more primitive races.
 
Whatever we do regarding aliens, we'll still have species incapable of defending themselves for hundreds if not thousand of years.
Setting up hidden but capable defensive installations in their systems seems like a good idea to counter Destroyer visits. Certainly, they wouldn't be enough on their own. But hopefully they can buy time for support and/or evacuation ships to arrive.
[X] Extreme Xeno-Preservationist: The Moderate Xeno-Preservationist stance was fairly similar to its extreme version, with the caveat that it had looser standards for when a civilization was considered mature enough to establish official contact and relations with. The extreme version meanwhile argued that the benchmark for making contact should be set at the development of warp-space technology, under the logic that in the coming centuries the Directorate would likely grow to the point it's economic output outstripped many star systems: the same dilemma they already had was likely to grow exponentially worse.
What?
The contact benchmark should be warpdrive?
WE wouldn't even have developed warpdrive for who knows how many decades or centuries without the generous aid of the Destroyers. By the time isolated species find that point, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are technologically superior to us in some ways.
This is truly an extreme option, alright.
Yeah, as much as SB/SV loves to fetishise uplift stories a lot of of them ignore the real life instances of that kind of thing going horrible wrong. With the biggest examples being the mass murder and even genocide of countless less advanced/primitive people's by technologically advanced ones throughout history. Then there is the issue of cultures imposing their own values on others to the point of committing cultural genocide and outright erasing a people's identity.

Like it doesn't seem to have occurred to people that even if we do ally with other races if we make it a thing that we think it's alright to get involved in less developed people's lives that they may think it's alright to do the same. Which is an issue when you take into account that they may do things in ways we don't really agree with even if they genuinely think it's for the less developed races own good.

That is pretty much the main thing that a lot of sci fi fans give aliens shit for in sci fi stories. Heck, it's what the Imperium does all the time. Yeah we aren't the Imperium and our allies are likely to be nowhere near as bad but it would probably be a good idea to avoid setting precedents of more advanced races getting too involved with the development of more primitive races.
There are reasons and causes for why contact often goes bad. But throwing everything into one big pot and concluding that genocide of one kind or another is to be expected isn't a reasonable analysis of risk.
Outcomes depend on intent, circumstances and beliefs. Whether or not you see the other as lesser beings to be subordinated/avages whose primitive culture should be replaced with 'civilization' or not makes a pretty big difference. Sure, unintentional harm is a thing, but it shouldn't be thrown in with genocidal intent.

"They may take the wrong lesson from our action."
Ok, but they could also take the wrong lesson from our inaction. Not to mention that there is no reason to think they would turn out better if left to their own devices.

Dragging the imperium out as a case against intervention is pretty far out there.
Like, the imperium also has religion and does bad things because of it, and there is lots of historical precedent in our world of people doing horrible things because of religion. Are we supposed to ditch that on principle? No, because the specifics of what these religions proscribe, what people believe, and how they are integrated into society are really really important for their consequences.

Personally, I'm not sure I'm a fan of more heavy handed intervention. But I want the reasoning for and against to be a bit more specific and applicable to the situation.
 
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