Into that Vast and Unrelenting Darkness (40K Xeno Civilization Quest)

Suffering is not a catch all excuse for behaving like an asshole to your only allies. The Emperor screams eternal upon his throne and weeps for the fate of mankind, he is still a monster. Saying 'he's paranoid so we have to cater to him' is akin to saying 'he's a narcissist we have to kiss his ass', it is a problem he has, not his species, not the Teket, he has to the problem and if we tiptoe around him we would only be enabling him. Would you be Ok with killing Marjak to keep Vlahak because Vlahak will probably be more influential? That does not sound very moral and it may well be the outcome of No.

You missed my argument.

I don't like Vlahak overmuch, but his grievances are not irrational, and we have to work with him if we have to work with the Autonites.

And no, I won't kill Marjak to kill Vlahak. That's not what we're voting for. Stay on topic, and don't use rhetoric to deflect.
 
[X] No

Just gonna ask it because no one has the gut to say it: are you all high or something!? "Oh yeah! Let's already make feel Vlaahk our only autonite supporter even more isolated even after turtling our lazy asses for 2 centuries to save his enslaved people and trust a madden AI high on deathstick!"

Think people! Think! Ask yourselves: WHAT could POSSIBLY you gain from trusting a lunatic AI over Vlaahk!? Even if Vlaahk was your demonized figure which for some reason all of you want to see him as instead of who he is, are you really gonna trust a devil you don't even know!?!?
 
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You missed my argument.

I don't like Vlahak overmuch, but his grievances are not irrational, and we have to work with him if we have to work with the Autonites.

And no, I won't kill Marjak to kill Vlahak. That's not what we're voting for. Stay on topic, and don't use rhetoric to deflect.
  1. His grievances are not irrational, the way he has dealt with them is, he did not even so much as register a complaint in all those years, he jumped to industrial espionage
  2. We are right now in a position to help Marjak at the cost of maybe pissing off Vlahak. It is entirely possible that this is the only option we will get to speak to Marjak. If peace cannot be achieved and he will not talk further we would have little choice but to kill him or leave him forever a prisoner which might actually be crueler.
 
Just gonna ask it because no one has the gut to say it: are you all high or something!? "Oh yeah! Let's already make feel Vlaahk our only autonite supporter even more isolated even after turtling our lazy asses for 2 centuries to save his enslaved people and trust a madden AI high on deathstick!"

Think people! Think! Ask yourselfs: WHAT could POSSIBLY you gain from trusting a lunatic AI over Vlaahk!? Even if Vlaahk was your demonized figure which for some reason all of you want to see, are you really gonna trust a devil you don't even know!?!?
Vlaahk wants more than anything to save the Autonites. This vote isn't so much about our reputation with Vlaahk in the long-term (maybe in the short-term), but more like "Are we willing to risk the ground team's safety by not having Vlaahk's support to calm down Marjak?" which is objectively an outcome Vlaahk really wants.
 
And no, I won't kill Marjak to kill Vlahak. That's not what we're voting for. Stay on topic, and don't use rhetoric to deflect.
While I agree DP is being unreasonable in his hate of Vlahak, I think the equivalencing of refusing to cut contact with him being the same as killing Marjak is somewhat fair. If we can't get him to negotiate we have practically no means of solving the problem before he gets purged.
Think people! Think! Ask yourselfs: WHAT could POSSIBLY you gain from trusting a lunatic AI over Vlaahk!? Even if Vlaahk was your demonized figure which for some reason all of you want to see, are you really gonna trust a devil you don't even know!?!?
The opportunity to cure him of the Logic Plague, thus gaining access to a high powered AI with access to the Archive's network infrastructure that could potentially facilitate a Star Trek style hail mary of cleansing the facility and shutting down the purge.
  1. His grievances are not irrational, the way he has dealt with them is, he did not even so much as register a complaint in all those years, he jumped to industrial espionage
That's wholly untrue. He made his displeasure with our lack of aid clear on basically every Autonite interaction.
 
As others have pointed out, we've already betrayed Vlahak once by ignoring his people's suffering in spite of promising to help.

Secondly, being an asshole isn't a crime. Like, for fuck's sake, guys! You can't just ignore ethical considerations because the guy you're talking to was rude.

We can't just ditch him. Do you have any idea what he'll do after that? Even worse, should our little gambit here fail? We have no guarantee that the crazy AI won't try to gank us, and then we'll have pissed of our only ally in the region for no reason.
 
Suffering is not a catch all excuse for behaving like an asshole to your only allies. The Emperor screams eternal upon his throne and weeps for the fate of mankind, he is still a monster. Saying 'he's paranoid so we have to cater to him' is akin to saying 'he's a narcissist we have to kiss his ass', it is a problem he has, not his species, not the Teket, he has to the problem and if we tiptoe around him we would only be enabling him. Would you be Ok with killing Marjak to keep Vlahak because Vlahak will probably be more influential? That does not sound very moral and it may well be the outcome of No.

Okay so some advice my man you need to work on learning how to construct more convincing, less honest arguments or else learning how to use reverse psychology because, and to be clear I'm not trying to be mean here, you have anti charisma. You are successfully making the option and stance you are arguing for look *really* bad.
 
  1. His grievances are not irrational, the way he has dealt with them is, he did not even so much as register a complaint in all those years, he jumped to industrial espionage
  2. We are right now in a position to help Marjak at the cost of maybe pissing off Vlahak. It is entirely possible that this is the only option we will get to speak to Marjak. If peace cannot be achieved and he will not talk further we would have little choice but to kill him or leave him forever a prisoner which might actually be crueler.

1. Again, see the aforementioned argument about diplomacy, Autonites and working with Vlahak. It is a safe bet that other AIs feel similar to Vlahak; punitively striking back would utterly destroy our relationships.

We want the Autonites to bind to us. Work with Vlahak.

2. At the cost of definitely twisting Vlahak, we work with Marjak, who is dubious and uncertain and not half as important and who we will talk with anyways, merely not work with. You have no evidence that choosing this option will destroy Marjak; they seem far more concerned with their charges than any personal danger, certainly. Until we get evidence that the AI master of place will be destroyed by its automated defences, that is not my concern.

While I agree DP is being unreasonable in his hate of Vlahak, I think the equivalencing of refusing to cut contact with him being the same as killing Marjak is somewhat fair. If we can't get him to negotiate we have practically no means of solving the problem before he gets purged.

See above.

Plus, even if we can;t stop the purge, what's stopping us from just… uploading Marjak? We have computers on our ship, too; we have probably have computers at hand, although those may not be powerful enough.
 
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I personally voted for "Yes" because it may be a one-time opportunity to get something really valuable from Marjak. Vlaahk isn't going anywhere (Unless we screw up), while Marjak can go somewhere.
 
As others have pointed out, we've already betrayed Vlahak once by ignoring his people's suffering in spite of promising to help.

Secondly, being an asshole isn't a crime. Like, for fuck's sake, guys! You can't just ignore ethical considerations because the guy you're talking to was rude.

We can't just ditch him. Do you have any idea what he'll do after that? Even worse, should our little gambit here fail? We have no guarantee that the crazy AI won't try to gank us, and then we'll have pissed of our only ally in the region for no reason.
To be fair, being in communication with Vlahak does little to nothing to disincentivize Marjak from trying to gank us right now, and not talking to the guy who murdered his charges would be a reasonable show of good faith.
2. At the cost of definitely twisting Vlahak, we work with Marjak, who is dubious and uncertain and not half as important and who we will talk with anyways, merely not work with. You have no evidence that choosing this option will destroy Marjak; they seem far more concerned with their charges than any personal danger, certainly. Until we get evidence that the AI master of place will be destroyed by its automated defences, that is not my concern.
We have that:
"IT APPEARS YOUR ASSERTION IS CORRECT," Came the voice of Marjak. "WE ARE DETECTING A COUNTDOWN TO A STATION-WIDE NETWORK PURGE. AS THE ALTERNATIVE IS NOT ONLY THE DESTRUCTION OF ALL THE POLIADS SECURITY BUT THE SHUT DOWN OF STATION LIFE SUPPORT, I AM FORCED TO CONCEDE YOU ARE potentially TELLING THE TRUTH. AS SUCH, I WILL AGREE TO NEGOTIATE WITH YOU IF YOU IMMEDIATELY CEASE CONTACT WITH VLAAHK-LFFYT The murderer," They stated.
Grumbling into his transistors is not the same as making his displeasure known. Levy a formal complaint, give a timetable, an ultimatum, you know the normal things one does before direct and blatant hostile action
He said multiple times "hey, I don't trust you guys since you said you would help and have made basically no moves to do so" and our polity reports have always said "the Autonites are getting impatient, maybe don't ignore this issue" which we promptly ignored.
 
I don't know what to vote for on the one hand this just seems to be for tndi to cut of from vlahak so she can talk to marjack alone and he will still have the ground team to talk to but it might be a bad idea as well cause then theirs no counter point in cause marjack lies or if theirs a trap (while unlikely could always be a possabilty)
 
Okay so some advice my man you need to work on learning how to construct more convincing, less honest arguments or else learning how to use reverse psychology because, and to be clear I'm not trying to be mean here, you have anti charisma. You are successfully making the option and stance you are arguing for look *really* bad.

Fair point, to be honest I do not really care that much about the decision, certainly not enough to be manipulative in my arguments

He said multiple times "hey, I don't trust you guys since you said you would help and have made basically no moves to do so" and our polity reports have always said "the Autonites are getting impatient, maybe don't ignore this issue" which we promptly ignored.

Which is not a timetable or a meaningful formal complaint. 'We are getting impatient' is something you would say constantly to another polity when you want something from them, why would you not after all, when it costs nothing? Harsher language and an ultimatum actually come with a cost for you (you might piss them off and if you do not follow your ultimatum you look weak) so it is liable to be taken more seriously.
 
Ok, it took a little bit to figure out where to end the tally, but I'm pretty sure I've got it set up correctly.

Adhoc vote count started by ReaperofInterest on Aug 26, 2023 at 11:17 AM, finished with 28 posts and 21 votes.


It looks like we're going with No, this time.
 
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Chellewalker is right, this decision isn't about our long-term relationships with Autons but most likely is instead about the way this operation continues.

I don't think Vlaahk is petty enough to hold a grudge against us because we disconnected from him once.
 
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