It says something that

Cost less then Nanoha. Not sure what is says. Don't really know what mana cost relates to.
May be the additional "baggage" we have to pull along. A Linker Core is very much a physical object and may just cost those two motes of difference.
I'll write Agneyastra off as being planeswalker tech and thus not correlating with the rest of our summons on this.

Moreso, the colored requirement of the summoning may be the minimal 100% efficient cost that is bringing the soul to us. Note that when our summoning skill improved, the colored part of the costs didn't change, but the color-agnostic part did. Meaning that in some distant future Sidhe and Nanoha may cost as little as three motes while Sigurd will be capped at 5.
 
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Should we expect Sigurd to have white eye sparkles soon?
Maybe something like Red and White but not pink.

Also i think that we just got confirmation that eye sparkles are linked to Summon Bonds.

Edit: also we should look into the ability for souls to be modified to be better Bonded with; if nothing else Sidhe'd probably enjoy it...Actually maybe we should see if we can get Agneyastra those soul augements; she'd probably enjoy it as well.
 
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Yeah but not until they get over their own Summoning Sickness.

That's what Quicken is for, and it only adds 3 motes to each summoning. They should all contribute at least that much. (Nanoha will likely break even with a mote or so to spare, Sidhe has her earrings to add a healthy margin, and Agneyastra doesn't need to be summoned.)

If mana is the bottleneck and time isn't a factor, Sigurd can be used to alleviate summoning sickness instead.

Re: Mana, we should probably see about working out some mana storage items or something. In addition to converting Dust into mana, we could probably also figure out a way to use Lacrima to create fires and convert those into mana. Holder magic that works regardless of the user's lack of an Origin is a thing, after all. I feel like we should really set Astra to researching such things in her spare time.

Jade's homeworld already has mana storage enchantments, so no need to spend time reinventing the wheel. Reminder, because it's been a while:

Attempts have been made to create various colors of 'harvesting' Enchantment, but aside from several storage Enchantments you will almost certainly want to look at, they have had little success.
 
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(Nanoha will likely break even with a mote or so to spare, Sidhe has her earrings to add a healthy margin, and Agneyastra doesn't need to be summoned.)
Actually that gives me a thought; is it cheaper if we Walk with Mitra attached to us rather then attached to Nanoha while we Summon her?
Jade's homeworld already has mana storage enchantments, so no need to spend time reinventing the wheel. Reminder, because it's been a while:
Hey there's an idea; since there are people on the MGLNverse that have caused a need for such a thing, and thus have Mana of their own, then why don't we take a page out of Indiras book and pay people for their mana production? The Agni immitators that apparently were showing up might have some Red running through them for us to use.
 
Not now that it's one of the only things that'll work against the Book Of Darkness is won't be.
If it's too frustrating to work on, it's too frustrating to work on. Beating our heads against a wall is less effective than learning Linker Core sealing techniques would probably be.
There's always Witch Grief if it's a emergency.
*Aura. We don't produce Grief anymore. Can't, as best as I understand it.
May be the additional "baggage" we have to pull along. A Linker Core is very much a physical object and may just cost those two motes of difference.
I'll write Agneyastra off as being planeswalker tech and thus not correlating with the rest of our summons on this.

Moreso, the colored requirement of the summoning may be the minimal 100% efficient cost that is bringing the soul to us. Note that when our summoning skill improved, the colored part of the costs didn't change, but the color-agnostic part did. Meaning that in some distant future Sidhe and Nanoha may cost as little as three motes while Sigurd will be capped at 5.
..."Color-agnostic" is probably the wrong terminology. Especially given the roots of "agnostic", it meaning, essentially, "lacking knowledge". Like...I guess metaphorically it could be accurate, but it's definitely a weird choice of words. Good analysis otherwise, though.
Jade's homeworld already has mana storage enchantments, so no need to spend time reinventing the wheel. Reminder, because it's been a while:
I mean...the plane in question is currently just a bit temporally frozen, so I don't see us being able to replicate those right now. Probably best to copy off someone different, if we want them done before the Jewel Seeds stuff. Not quite sure who to copy, though.
 
I mean...the plane in question is currently just a bit temporally frozen, so I don't see us being able to replicate those right now. Probably best to copy off someone different, if we want them done before the Jewel Seeds stuff. Not quite sure who to copy, though.
We just visited the plane in question after we finished up with XCOM. You have your planes confused.
 
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If it's too frustrating to work on, it's too frustrating to work on. Beating our heads against a wall is less effective than learning Linker Core sealing techniques would probably be.
Worst case scenario we find a Artifact that does it for us.
*Aura. We don't produce Grief anymore. Can't, as best as I understand it.
No: Grief; there should be a bunch in our Witch Seeds that we could probably Recolor.
 
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Maybe something like Red and White but not pink.

Also i think that we just got confirmation that eye sparkles are linked to Summon Bonds.

Edit: also we should look into the ability for souls to be modified to be better Bonded with; if nothing else Sidhe'd probably enjoy it...Actually maybe we should see if we can get Agneyastra those soul augements; she'd probably enjoy it as well.
Well if he does get them he should actually be able to tell us what causes them.
 
Why am I not surprised that the spirit they assigned to us turned out to be primarily White and Red with a splash of Blue? That's about as perfectly-aligned with Jade and the rest of her party as I can imagine.

Also, now quite looking forward to what he can pull off when we get to other planes.
 
We just visited the plane in question after we finished up with XCOM. You have your planes confused.
...Right, wrong homeworld.
Worst case scenario we find a Artifact that does it for us.
Or just let someone else handle the sealing. We don't actually have to do everything ourselves, you know.
No: Grief; there should be a bunch in our Witch Seeds that we could probably Recolor.
Grief=/=Black Mana, even if they are remarkably similar.
Didn't we give those to Siofra after we got our soul fixed, like we (IIRC) promised?
I think that we got new ones; i might be wrong though.
I can't think of any time we'd have had an opportunity to do so. Our most recent trip to PMMM was spent on other matters, and we basically abandoned the place after we left.
 
Actually that gives me a thought; is it cheaper if we Walk with Mitra attached to us rather then attached to Nanoha while we Summon her?
Mitra may not survive the trip.
..."Color-agnostic" is probably the wrong terminology. Especially given the roots of "agnostic", it meaning, essentially, "lacking knowledge". Like...I guess metaphorically it could be accurate, but it's definitely a weird choice of words.
I guess it was based on this technical terminology:
Article:
3. (computing) Of a software component etc.: unaware or noncommittal regarding the specific nature of the components with which it interacts
 
"I want a Firecat," you blurt out, then immediately slap both hands over your mouth. Where did that come from?

Rather than being offended by the notion, Kal'enel snorts with obvious amusement.

"You realize Firecats are not pets, yes?" Kal'enel teases. "They are, one and all, older than you. Still, I suppose I can discuss giving Sigurd the... form.
he's actually either a powerful extraplanar or a godling himself, one who's almost immune to fire and feels rather similar to static electricity. He can't bring most of that fizzy-tasting power to bear in his current form
I assume that in the firecat form, Sigurd would be able to express his affinity for Red mana instead of that for White. A different set of restrictions that would allow him to access a different subset of his full power.


Better idea; we just need his wards to not cover an area where they're searching~
he might have allies who'd swear up and down that he'd been framed.
A sudden leak in normally fail-proof suppression wards? That would give him actual 'evidence' for having been framed. From there, it's a small step to get away with blaming the saboteur for the torture as well.

Does she not already have one? I could have sworn that we had at least given her a small one.
The main reason we didn't is that, until recently, we thought that Sidhe's lack of a Linker Core might actually be beneficial at the start of the JS incident: We planned to have her and Hayate stay at our mansion, and since the BoD consumes Linker Cores...
Now that we know that it will archive and learn from any and all magical phenomena, that precaution is less important, but giving her a LC would still risk the BoD getting a power boost from Sidhe's LC right after it activates.

You know i had had thoughs about introducing modified souls into this Planes cycle of reincarnation
Going against one of the agreements between Velgarth's gods is a very bad idea. We'd make enemies of several beings far more powerful than us, and if the reincarnation cycle is part of the divine treaty, we'd even open ourself up to direct retaliation.

That's costly; probably valuable to plop down as a copy Summon onto Planes with problems on them to deal with for as long as a Summon of someone will last though; can you imagine how many Grimm he could go through?
You want to waste 7 mana on a copy that only lasts 24h, then send it against an infinite horde of enemies that just regenerates from any damage you do? That's a horrible misuse of mana. What's more, I doubt Sigurd would be comfortable with the idea of copies of himself with all his knowledge running around.

don't we know a Ship AI?
Nope. We had a foresight dream about the AI of an Agni flagship and know that Jail has twisted the AI of an Agni cruiser, but Jade hasn't met either of them so far.

our party members can donate mana, too.
At 50% loss for colors other than Red, going by the time Agneyastra had to invest both her White motes to let us absorb one of them. That isn't exactly sustainable.

For Sidhe, Agneyastra, maybe Sigurd, and Nanoha in the future, this means they can optionally offset much of their own cost.
We know from Yuuno that summoning costs can rise if a companion gets a boost to their... power? card value? spiritual weight?
In other words, I wouldn't rely on them being able to significantly contribute to their own summoning cost, since increasing their mana production will also make their summon more expensive.

Not now that it's one of the only things that'll work against the Book Of Darkness is won't be.
First off, why would Jade struggle to learn Stasis when Sidhe is a prodigy with Blue? Second, Stasis is not a solution for the BoD. It can grant us time in a critical moment, but likely at the cost of being used against us shortly after. And Alivaril himself interjected that "stasis, then summon" is not a valid tactic because we simply can't summon the BoD:
The mechanics of summoning make these versus arguments really silly, guys.


Actually that gives me a thought; is it cheaper if we Walk with Mitra attached to us rather then attached to Nanoha while we Summon her?
Remember how Agneyastra is a special artifact, e.g. that we can't summon a copy of her? Trying to take Mitra with us directly would likely end like any attempt to bring a companion along, i.e. death by Blind eternities.

Grief; there should be a bunch in our Witch Seeds that we could probably Recolor.
As Nixeu pointed out, Grief isn't Black mana, and Black OMGs need to actually learn how to convert it into Black before they can use Grief as a mana source.
 
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The main reason we didn't is that, until recently, we thought that Sidhe's lack of a Linker Core might actually be beneficial at the start of the JS incident: We planned to have her and Hayate stay at our mansion, and since the BoD consumes Linker Cores...
I don't remember that being the plan at all, much less such a certain one that it affected Sidhe's vessel options. What I do remember is that extracting a linker core has issues and it's better to just start with the core you'd be replacing the temporary one with.
 
I don't remember that being the plan at all
Here are some of the posts where Sidhe's role during the JS incident was discussed:
I expect I'll only be good for out-of-combat healing; even tossing out pre-battle enhancements would be unreasonably risky, especially when Nanoha is rapidly improving when it comes to their use. Perhaps I could help the locals by working on any injured survivors?"
- Sidhe: mobile clinic or keeping Hayate safe and calm?
Leaving Sidhe with Hayate was discussed in-thread, though. And, I think, it's the best option. Everyone else would do better by sealing Jewel Seeds. And if it comes to worst, Sidhe doesn't have a Linker Core, so she would be in less danger.
Hayate is one of the people linked to the infamously planet-killing Book of Darkness, keep her safe and relaxed during JS
I think that we now know Sidhe's job for the Jewel seed event. She is perfect for it what with her lack of linker core yet ability to defend herself and others.
I distinctly remember that Sidhe told us she'd prefer to leave the fighting to us and Nanoha and stay back as support. As a result, Sidhe can keep Hayate calm and protected, which essentially eliminates the risk of triggering the BoD before the Jewel Seeds are dealt with
using Sidhe to keep Hayate calm sounds like a good plan to me.
 
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Or just let someone else handle the sealing. We don't actually have to do everything ourselves, you know.
That would sort of be what we would be doing with artifacts though; we can't transport people between Planes without going through the trouble of Bonding with them; artifacts we can just get made anywhere and drop on the Book Of Darkness.
Grief=/=Black Mana, even if they are remarkably similar.
Nither are a lot of the things that we burn up for more Red; it shouldn't be overly hard to figure something out.
I can't think of any time we'd have had an opportunity to do so. Our most recent trip to PMMM was spent on other matters, and we basically abandoned the place after we left.
After looking at out charactor page it seems you were right; think that it'd be worth it to Walk there and speed-run a few Barriers? It'd actually likely be conductive to figuring out some good spells for our home Planes Red mage magical girls; i've brought up corrupting Griefs corruption based production process, either to smother Grief Spirals with emotions non-conductive to them or to make some Not!Grief that would likely be vaguely interesting/useful, before and it'd likely be valuable to both them and us.
Mitra may not survive the trip.
Remember how Agneyastra is a special artifact, e.g. that we can't summon a copy of her? Trying to take Mitra with us directly would likely end like any attempt to bring a companion along, i.e. death by Blind eternities.
Actually this brings up a interesting point; i thought that it was her being a Device and bonded to us that made her Blind Eternity resistant but since Agneyastras intended user was apparently a Planeswalker she's probably designed to resist the Blind Eternities.
A sudden leak in normally fail-proof suppression wards? That would give him actual 'evidence' for having been framed. From there, it's a small step to get away with blaming the saboteur for the torture as well.
I think that we've established that he would do that no matter what and that it's less of a matter of him committing a crime and more of a matter of him resisting arrest.
The main reason we didn't is that, until recently, we thought that Sidhe's lack of a Linker Core might actually be beneficial at the start of the JS incident: We planned to have her and Hayate stay at our mansion, and since the BoD consumes Linker Cores...
Now that we know that it will archive and learn from any and all magical phenomena, that precaution is less important, but giving her a LC would still risk the BoD getting a power boost from Sidhe's LC right after it activates.
It might actually be more convenient to give her one and removing it before she gets there; i'm mostly spitballing on that one though.
I don't remember that being the plan at all, much less such a certain one that it affected Sidhe's vessel options. What I do remember is that extracting a linker core has issues and it's better to just start with the core you'd be replacing the temporary one with.
Never mind apparently i'm having a brain-fart.
Going against one of the agreements between Velgarth's gods is a very bad idea. We'd make enemies of several beings far more powerful than us, and if the reincarnation cycle is part of the divine treaty, we'd even open ourself up to direct retaliation.
They're already rules-lawering that shit up anyway; may as well throw in some wildcards if we end up on their level and bound to their laws.
Nope. We had a foresight dream about the AI of an Agni flagship and know that Jail has twisted the AI of an Agni cruiser, but Jade hasn't met either of them so far.
Right i was thinking about the research station AI; the same concept probably applies...Speeking of the research station AI, and particularly how we were intending to get it to take care of some Sparks, we should look into ways to boost the ecosystem designed by Sparks in the hopes of using it to boost the Mana production of Lands.
 
Mitra may not survive the trip.
I agree that carrying Mitra with us to only summon Nanoha a bad idea for a different reason: whenever we're summoning Nanoha we forced to pay the cost for Mitra's summmon too at the same time so even if Mitra is with us we'd have to pay for her summon.

Having said that, I have a question unrelated to the background topic...

Mitra may not survive the trip.
Then why Agneyastra survives when we planeswalk? I mean, we had 'walked even before getting a linker core and as far as I understand Agneyastra has been ok after the trips. Shouldn't it be the same if we're wearing Mitra?



Other points:


- Sigurd has to convince Sidhe to being brought on the group. We've been talking as if it's a done thing but he still needs her approval.
- We cut some recovery time with Sigurd's help, which is nice, but I think we should learn how much time we could save; since Sigurd wasn't with Jade to apply his healing as quick as he could I'm sure the recovery could be even quicker, which brings my next point:
- Now we have a new option for summoning: Quicken-Summon Sigurd, then normal summon the rest of the party, and finally Sigurd use his soul healing to make recovering from summoning sickness more quickly. It's less recovery time than normal summon and less costly than Quicken-summon the full party so it should be a good option if we're lacking mana to quicken summon everybody.
 
Agneyastra only survives being exposed to Eternity because of her weird Al-Hazard super invulnerability. Don't try the same trick with Mitra unless you want a very sad Nanoha. You monsters.

At 50% loss for colors other than Red, going by the time Agneyastra had to invest both her White motes to let us absorb one of them. That isn't exactly sustainable.

No, that was because Agneyastra had to let a healing spell collapse, because her restrictions (and/or limitations of the Djinn power) made it so she couldn't release mana without giving it a purpose.

That loss rate doesn't apply to other people sharing mana (see: Jade and Sidhe having no trouble sharing Blue when practicing), and may not even apply to Agneyastra anymore with Unison.
 
That would sort of be what we would be doing with artifacts though; we can't transport people between Planes without going through the trouble of Bonding with them; artifacts we can just get made anywhere and drop on the Book Of Darkness.
First, we could always leave the sealing to the TSAB/Chrono (assuming he shows up). Second, no, we can't get artifacts made "anywhere", in-fact. We know a limited number of beings that could produce artifacts, much less one that could seal the BoD.
Nither are a lot of the things that we burn up for more Red; it shouldn't be overly hard to figure something out.
Given our low experience with Black, I think I'm gonna have to disagree on that. Last I checked, we were still having trouble keeping large concentrations from consuming the life around them.
After looking at out charactor page it seems you were right; think that it'd be worth it to Walk there and speed-run a few Barriers? It'd actually likely be conductive to figuring out some good spells for our home Planes Red mage magical girls; i've brought up corrupting Griefs corruption based production process, either to smother Grief Spirals with emotions non-conductive to them or to make some Not!Grief that would likely be vaguely interesting/useful, before and it'd likely be valuable to both them and us.
Are normal Witches even still a thing anymore? I vaguely recall Walpurgis-Gretchen having assimilated them all, and MGs mostly relying on mana mages to cleanse their Soul Gems. But I could be wrong about that.
 
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First, we could always leave the sealing to the TSAB/Chrono (assuming he shows up). Second, no, we can't get artifacts made "anywhere", in-fact. We know a limited number of beings that could produce artifacts, much less one that could seal the BoD.
That was unclear of my; what i meant was that we could get them from anywhere they able to be made; we could go to all of the places where things like that were being made and get them from there.

Hell; maybe get some Time Dust and see if that can help move things along; the time-stop only needs to be single use.
Given our low experience with Black, I think I'm gonna have to disagree on that. Last I checked, we were still having trouble keeping large concentrations from consuming the life around them.
Are normal Witches even still a thing anymore? I vaguely recall Walpurgis-Gretchen having assimilated them all, and MGs mostly relying on mana mages to cleanse their Soul Gems. But I could be wrong about that.
We'd need to do some R&D.

Honestly i feel like the trick to Black is to use something to drown/starve it and/or making it drown/starve itself, isn't the whole thing about selfishness that it can't properly organize? The trick to preventing it from sacrificing part of itself and the local resources is probably going to be stopping it from being able to sacrifice one part of itself more then any other.
 
We'd need to do some R&D.

Honestly i feel like the trick to Black is to use something to drown/starve it and/or making it drown/starve itself, isn't the whole thing about selfishness that it can't properly organize? The trick to preventing it from sacrificing part of itself and the local resources is probably going to be stopping it from being able to sacrifice one part of itself more then any other.
That does seem like an effective way to take down a black enchantment. Break it into piece that fight each other.
 
We'd need to do some R&D.

Honestly i feel like the trick to Black is to use something to drown/starve it and/or making it drown/starve itself, isn't the whole thing about selfishness that it can't properly organize? The trick to preventing it from sacrificing part of itself and the local resources is probably going to be stopping it from being able to sacrifice one part of itself more then any other.
We don't know: Alivaril changed the meaning of colors from canon Magic the Gathering so it may or may not be the case.

So as you said, yes, we need to do some R&D. But we need to research and practice not only on mana magic, but also on ethernano, soul magic, landbonding, even the mysterious primatic ability from some time before, etc. The problem is that we only have so much time so we need to prioritize. For example, some of the bigger priorities right now are:

- Practising Unison with Agneyastra
- Practising Red Overchanneling
- Research Red Dust conversion
- Research how to safely clean Grief from non-fireproof soul gems using red mana (to teach pyro MGs in PMMM)


Is it really worth it to displace some of them for researching Black? Or better said, what's your argument to the thread to make Black research a better use of Jade's time than other researchs?
 
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