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History Strikes Back (TNO/TLM ISOT into OTL)

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DocMatoi said:
raiho is saying that britain, in a haze of post-falklands war bravado, may attempt direct military action on the UAR

unless you were talking to me in which case i was saying that people In Universe won't know what the point of divergence for the two timelines is, but the existence of a unified italy helps narrow it down- you don't have to go over more than a hundred years of history like you would with other data points, you can say with 100% certainty that the divergence happened after 1861
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People in this timeline can communicate and read books, you know? I'd imagine by now the leaders of both sides at least have access to each other's history, even if they don't fully trust it or respect what it means for those people.
 
StarMaker764 said:
Luckily he found an unlikely ally….


| In the form of fellow Prime Minister Tony Blair |
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Oh, oh fuck. I just realized how bad this is.

Guys. I think I know what pissed Tony Blair off. He had to be wined, dined, and lied to by some suspicious friends of MI6 before he committed to Iraq. But before then, he'd been part of the big pro-UN intervention crowd that led the efforts in Serbia and Kosovo.

And, during 2001, the British Army was leading the UN in ending the Sierra Leone Civil War. Most combat operations had wound down by the end by the end of 2000, but they still had troops in with the UN Peacekeepers to help with disarming the rebels and running the Short Term Training Teams of British soldiers assisting the regular army.

I think the Comintern replaced Sierra Leone. So an entire battalion of soldiers, including elite UK special forces soldiers integrated into the Sierra Leone army to bolster it in a crisis, have just been poof'd.

How much would it take to make people start thinking their soldiers over in Africa or the Middle East are either captured or killed?
 
Always Late said:
Oh, oh fuck. I just realized how bad this is.

Guys. I think I know what pissed Tony Blair off. He had to be wined, dined, and lied to by some suspicious friends of MI6 before he committed to Iraq. But before then, he'd been part of the big pro-UN intervention crowd that led the efforts in Serbia and Kosovo.

And, during 2001, the British Army was leading the UN in ending the Sierra Leone Civil War. Most combat operations had wound down by the end by the end of 2000, but they still had troops in with the UN Peacekeepers to help with disarming the rebels and running the Short Term Training Teams of British soldiers assisting the regular army.

I think the Comintern replaced Sierra Leone. So an entire battalion of soldiers, including elite UK special forces soldiers integrated into the Sierra Leone army to bolster it in a crisis, have just been poof'd.

How much would it take to make people start thinking their soldiers over in Africa or the Middle East are either captured or killed?
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nah. Sierra Leone's territory is part of the ASU in TLM - and since only the UAR came over, those British troops should still be there.
 
Always Late said:
Oh, oh fuck. I just realized how bad this is.

Guys. I think I know what pissed Tony Blair off. He had to be wined, dined, and lied to by some suspicious friends of MI6 before he committed to Iraq. But before then, he'd been part of the big pro-UN intervention crowd that led the efforts in Serbia and Kosovo.

And, during 2001, the British Army was leading the UN in ending the Sierra Leone Civil War. Most combat operations had wound down by the end by the end of 2000, but they still had troops in with the UN Peacekeepers to help with disarming the rebels and running the Short Term Training Teams of British soldiers assisting the regular army.

I think the Comintern replaced Sierra Leone. So an entire battalion of soldiers, including elite UK special forces soldiers integrated into the Sierra Leone army to bolster it in a crisis, have just been poof'd.

How much would it take to make people start thinking their soldiers over in Africa or the Middle East are either captured or killed?
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I don't believe that that UAR was that far south. I think that Blair is gonna be pissed because he's in a politically unstable position. He basically sold out his party to the neolibs on the promise of economic success, but now there's a financial and oil crisis going on, so he's fucked, and gonna lash out.
 
Underlake said:
I don't believe that that UAR was that far south. I think that Blair is gonna be pissed because he's in a politically unstable position. He basically sold out his party to the neolibs on the promise of economic success, but now there's a financial and oil crisis going on, so he's fucked, and gonna lash out.
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Knee jerk reaction aside, that's just not true. But it's understandable to forget a key detail here, because it's what defined Blair's career and turned all his past successes into failures. The thing that's being misunderstood is this:

Iraq was never invaded ITTL. Iraqi Freedom didn't happen until 2003, ISOT happened in 2001.

The only operation right now is Afghanistan, which has mostly global agreement, if not support. Tony Blair is still a very successful politician with a global reputation and a key player in the "Post-History" western network of alliances. Whatever conspiracy we like to pretend existed over the invasion of Iraq, hasn't happened yet and never will.
 
Iraq hasn't happened but even before that, 'hurr durr Arabs cannot into fighting' was already a stereotype taken as gospel by some. There's no chance either Italy or the UK are remotely going to assess the situation clearly and with a level head.
 
always_confused said:
Iraq hasn't happened but even before that, 'hurr durr Arabs cannot into fighting' was already a stereotype taken as gospel by some. There's no chance either Italy or the UK are remotely going to assess the situation clearly and with a level head.
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Even after the Yom Kippur War showed that a western-style military, even one as 'unique' as Israel, could still come back from a very precarious situation, conflicts like the Iran-Iraq war did not give a very good impression on the use of modern hardware in the hands of commanders not trained in the NATO style.

The UAR is utterly beyond anyone's contextual understanding, because it's pretty much everything the Soviets boasted their equipment could do IRL. Only the UAR isn't lying. They're not even that far behind the early 2000s in computer technology.
 
Underlake said:
Oh fuck, Tony Blair has entered the chat.

Poor Mauritania by the way, they never asked for this... They were doing poorly enough.
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Its easy to forget that ISOT would be awful IRL

SuperHeavy said:
You think that's bad wait until they see an intact Germany leading a coalition of European states. Or what Bush is going to say when he opens his fat mouth.
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Or they discover there is a country named CAR IOTL

Spylobster said:
Britain's military is a shadow of its former self and won't be able to seriously threaten the UAR without American support.
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Blair:



Acc. No. 1409 said:
Something that is made easier to see considering the Axis Powers weren't in any way subtle about what they did in TNO and even more so in TLM.
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Then again some parts of TLM history are so insane that many will believe its all UAR propaganda.

"Canada declaring war on the US? Please, come up with something believable next time."
 
2002 was also the year the Boko Haram movement really started kicking well sorta a splinter decided to wage war against the state lead by one of the movements founders who died soon after. They then entered a series of cooperating with state politicians trying to set up their own mini state and clashing with it till things escalated in 2009. With Mohammed Yusuf being quite blurry in terms of ideology trying Shia Islamic Movement, Salafi Izala and even some Sufi brotherhoods trying to find the right group after like many Northern Nigerians disillusioned after Sharia being put into practise on a legal level failed to make any real changes.

On a more relevant issue Britain and Italy I think should not be underestimated I think everyone here will agree it's unlikely they can destroy the UAR without nuclear weapons however we might see a case where they do well given they have slightly better technology, if it takes place mainly on the sea where the UAR can't exploit it's massive reserves we might see a surprisingly difficult war till a ceasefire comes into being.
 
IRL!Tom Clancy versus TLM!Saddam Hussein in who can write the worse political thriller. Loser *gets* their dreck picked up by future streaming services.
 
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Whelp this is gonna turn into a shitshow. If Italy is defeated and occupied how will the UAR handle it? Also they are probably gonna reach out to Ireland very quickly and show them what happened in their timeline.
 
Ad_astra said:
On a more relevant issue Britain and Italy I think should not be underestimated I think everyone here will agree it's unlikely they can destroy the UAR without nuclear weapons however we might see a case where they do well given they have slightly better technology, if it takes place mainly on the sea where the UAR can't exploit it's massive reserves we might see a surprisingly difficult war till a ceasefire comes into being.
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The UAR of 2002 has a much larger Navy, combined with the Comintern Navy it's stated to be an overmatch for the US Navy (if not quite as expeditionary). Also remember, the UAR isn't the Soviet Union, its training and equipment are of much higher quality so it is not reliant on "massive reserves" to win the conflict by drowning the enemy in piles of bodies. Britain and Italy can't do shit.
 
Even the USSR of the 1970s and 80s would probably be way too much for Britain to fight on its own. By 2002, the British military is basically just an auxiliary force of the US Armed Forces that supports its foreign adventures.
 
Ad_astra said:
On a more relevant issue Britain and Italy I think should not be underestimated I think everyone here will agree it's unlikely they can destroy the UAR without nuclear weapons however we might see a case where they do well given they have slightly better technology, if it takes place mainly on the sea where the UAR can't exploit it's massive reserves we might see a surprisingly difficult war till a ceasefire comes into being.
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I don't think the UK can land anywhere except Malta without getting wiped out in a matter of hours by overwhelming number, but even in the sea the UAR has the overwhelming advantage even without a Navy because any naval fight in the Med would just be a large turkey shoot for the UAR air force against a hopelessly outmatched enemy.

At the end of the day this is 2002 and any naval war is mostly going to be fought in the air, and the UK's single aircraft carrier would be completely outmatched when the UAR can commit their entire air force from airbases on the southern Med coastline + Sicily.
 
StarMaker764 said:
Prime Minister Berlusconi was being pressured to do something and quick, and a man who had built his political credentials on Islamophobia and right-wing populism he could not negotiate with Cairo from his current position of weakness, let alone demand the return of Sicily as many of his people called for him to do, he needed a show of strength before anything could be done.
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Oh yeah, it's Bunga Bunga Time!

 
Very interesting, I never read TLM so I don't know much about the UAR. Does it have nukes? Maybe an aircraft carrier or 2?

What I hope this ISOT will become is not an UAR wank and that the Comintern magically subsumed Russia, India and China without any difficulty.

But I am eagerly waiting for Cuba to be relieved by UAR aid and military assistance. The US has to be taught that it isn't the sole superpower and can not do whatever they want with no consequences.
 
SCDMR Aramatha said:
Very interesting, I never read TLM so I don't know much about the UAR. Does it have nukes? Maybe an aircraft carrier or 2?

What I hope this ISOT will become is not an UAR wank and that the Comintern magically subsumed Russia, India and China without any difficulty.

But I am eagerly waiting for Cuba to be relieved by UAR aid and military assistance. The US has to be taught that it isn't the sole superpower and can not do whatever they want with no consequences.
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I don't know if the UAR has super carriers but they're a match for the US Navy. They absolutely have nukes, TLM is a world where the Nazis won WW2 and is infinitely more brutal and fucked up than our timeline. Russia is going to cozy up with NATO as the West's new source of fossil fuels, they have no realistic desire to join.

Also go read TLM
 
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