Remove ads

[HALP] me! (WORM quest)

Reader mode
We need to start eating shards to research better research and stable trigger. I don't know what else to tell you.
 
The_GrandMage said:
If we Master the animal Triggers, could we justify multiple hosts by having Taylor's power involve empowering animals? Or I that not enough to justify our behavior?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, assuming that you master, that is, really, truly, deeply understand both Earth biology and the Triggering process...

You could potentially Trigger insects. They wouldn't have much bandwidth each, but... you could do it.

This is the kind of thing, as a QM here, that gives me panic attacks. But technically you could arrange for that kind of nightmare. Especially with Amy's help for bigger buggy brains.
 
Vhalidictes said:
Well, assuming that you master, that is, really, truly, deeply understand both Earth biology and the Triggering process...

You could potentially Trigger insects. They wouldn't have much bandwidth each, but... you could do it.

This is the kind of thing, as a QM here, that gives me panic attacks. But technically you could arrange for that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah that's excessive. Let's pull back a bit.

You know Vhal, if we're doing something truly, deeply stupid or just being utterly wasteful, you're the gamemaster. You can tell us off. Don't let us waste your time and effort.

I don't want to see you burn out.

P.S. If we talk to people, could Amy for example help us do biological research?
 
Last edited:
Eating a bunch of dead Cauldron shards (presumably after researching Multi-Host so we can keep the host powers running smoothly) should give us a bunch more info income, since we'll be able to acquire data from a lot more conflicts at once.

That said, finding a way to acquire data without conflict should be a pretty high priority.

Actually, I'll write it up and have the QM look over it.

@Vhalidictes

[ ] The entities entire reason in coming to Earth and distributing powers is to acquire information. Human hosts are simply far much more creative and flexible with power usage than shards are. But you aren't a shard, and don't have the same limitations. Look into what exactly the Information you gather from fights actually is, and find a way to use your own creativity to create it.

It'll probably cost some Thinker and maybe Trump info to get the simulations set up, and there's presumably a reason that shards don't just get Information through simulations - but then, they would need to brute-force out Human cognition, whereas as a human-type intelligence Administrator should be able to model human interactions intuitively.
 
Don't know if you saw red, but I made huge list of possible research a bit ago. Don't really expect to get to DC and Marvel, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
 
Redshirt Army said:
@Vhalidictes

[ ] The entities entire reason in coming to Earth and distributing powers is to acquire information. Human hosts are simply far much more creative and flexible with power usage than shards are. But you aren't a shard, and don't have the same limitations. Look into what exactly the Information you gather from fights actually is, and find a way to use your own creativity to create it.

It'll probably cost some Thinker and maybe Trump info to get the simulations set up, and there's presumably a reason that shards don't just get Information through simulations - but then, they would need to brute-force out Human cognition, whereas as a human-type intelligence Administrator should be able to model human interactions intuitively.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is *exactly* what I was waiting for someone to figure out. But as the QM I couldn't prompt you.

I'll write it up soon. Matrix, ho! It won't be especially efficient or effective but it's way better than nothing.

In the short term, at least, [Eden] Shards are going to be the quickest source of Information - both what they have stored and whatever their Connected Parahuman generates. But it's not entirely risk-free, so that option requires a consensus / sufficient number of votes. Speaking of which...

I am calling for Votes now. Anything submitted after 18:00 US-Pacific will not be considered for Prologue Part 5.

Please vote by Chunk:
1) Research
2) Shard communications
3) Everything Else
 
Last edited:
Redshirt Army said:
Eating a bunch of dead Cauldron shards (presumably after researching Multi-Host so we can keep the host powers running smoothly) should give us a bunch more info income, since we'll be able to acquire data from a lot more conflicts at once.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We don't need Multi-Host to keep the host powers running though.
Vhalidictes said:
Everyone, I missed explaining something and I want to explicitly point it out - If you consume/eat a Shard, you automatically collect their Host(s), if any. This does NOT count as having the properties of "Multi-Host Connection 1", and won't allow you to use other skills that require it.

That said, unless you intentionally orphan those Hosts, they connect to you instead of the original Shard now, and you administer their Power(s) now. This *may* allow you to effectively re-negotiate powers with those Hosts, almost a second-Trigger, but from your end, not the Parahuman's.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'd like to keep Administrator's aberrance score low until we are sure we can keep other Shards from reporting to Scion. While most Shards aren't likely to easily figure out if Administrator is aberrant, Negotiator might catch on quickly. I think it's sapient so there's a possibility of negotiating with it, especially if we actually find a way to collect data without conflict.
 
Does any of the research overlap? Like if we research something completely, does it reduce the costs on overlapping research??

Vhal, every time you like my posts I think I'm onto something, but then I realize you like every post.

Every time
 
Last edited:
Gino said:
Does any of the research overlap? Like if we research something completely, does it reduce the costs on overlapping research??

Vhal, every time you like my posts I think I'm onto something, but then I realize you like every post.

Every time
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You haven't gotten far enough in Research for that to be relevant. Good thought though.

I shamelessly use the Like system to keep track of which posts I've read. Also, I like it when people participate in the Thread, since I'm the QM/GM.

What you should pay close attention to is any post that I don't Like. As well as posts where I use a different Rating. That is always for a reason.
 
Last edited:
Two venues of research that could be useful, considering the frequent mentions of memetic hazards (we could even get hit by our own weapon, you know):
  • [ ] Memetic Proxy Filtering: Trump/Thinker Information, Research. Memes. Memes everywhere. How do you protect yourself from their corrupting influence? You can just not come with contact with any, but that would mean not learning anything, ever. So how about splitting off, then telling that other you to catch those bugs, see if you want to keep them? Obviously not ideal, as you'll need to keep a distance from that other self. Even then it can fail, if a meme is virulent/proactive enough. Also it slows down research and communication speed. Togglable.
    • [ ] [Better Seperation]: Thinker Information, Research. Keeps more insiduous memes out. More complete defense.
    • [ ] [Automatic Screening]: Thinker Information, Research. Improves the speed with which you check out your test dummy. Can talk and research with lesser loss in efficiency.
  • [ ] Internal Diagnostic: Master/Thinker Information, Research. First step to solving a problem is to have a problem. Second step is becoming aware there is a problem. But how would you know if anything's wrong with you? Keep a closer eye (the metaphorical, diagnostic one) on your internal state, and keep secure logs of what happened, and who you used to be.
    • [ ] [Backup Copy]: Changer/Thinker Information, Research. Something went wrong, and you don't like the way you ended up? You can always return to your old self. Granted, you'd lose most memories up to this point, but it's the friends we made along the way that matter. Unless you forgot them too.
There is a synergy between the Backup Copy and the Proxy Filtering, as a test dummy could allow to filter out bad memes and keep the fresh memories.
Further venues could lead into having multiple backups, controlled deviations between copies of the shard, deepr diagnosis of other shards... full(er) control of other shards? Zombie shards that are actually imprinted copies of you?
 
Vhalidictes said:
Example: [ ][Memetic Apocalypse 1]: 1500 Thinker Information, 4500 Research.] This skill allows you to create a weaponized, contagious Meme that will serially infect all Addressable Shards. You can input one Command per Meme. You can create a new Meme for 500 Research. For each Meme, specify the Command. Shards get a separate defense attempt (only one, ever) against each individual Meme. No two Memes can input the same Command, if one doesn't work against a Shard you would need a different Command for any further infection attempts. Warning: Note that Scion is vulnerable to this, but he is so large that no single Meme will ever infect all of him. "I love you, you love me, we're a happy family..."

The above is a fully legal technology BTW.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'd love to do this, just for the lulz.

Alternatively, give Greg a human version of this. For the lulz.

Ya'll wanted an S-Ranked threat? Here's an S-Ranked threat, in the form of the horrible villain who you should contact at any cost that dashing new Rogue, Void Cowboy.



Alternatively, here's some more alternate powers that we could give to Greg. (Or Taylor, if you're into that)

So I noticed a page or so back, someone brought up giving Taylor and Undertale LV system. Now that's great and all, but I think I've come up with something better.

Power Name: "Determination"

Power Components:
  • Copy of Coil's "Simulate Timelines"
  • Copy of that canon "Infinite Multitasking" power that Taylor had
  • A self-mastering effect that allows the wielder to mimic all actions taken in a timeline of their choice.

How I imagine this would work is that the user could designate any point in time that they are currently experiencing as a 'Save Point'. From there, they could simulate any number of chosen futures (Coil's power + Infinite Multitasking) They'd experience these futures one by one until they found one that they would choose to live. Then, the self-mastering effect kicks in, allowing them to take all the same actions in reality that they did in the simulation.

I'd recommend giving this to Greg, given the canon limitations about simulating Entities and/or Endbringers. (Granted, I'm not sure this applies to Coil's shard, but whatever.)

Now, while this power could get into the leagues of plot-device powered Path to Victory, there's a couple of limiting factors here.

For one, the wielder is restricted by their normal human body. The wielder's not about to be punching out Brutes or lobbing a basketball across a city or surviving a Crossbow bolt blast or Lung's fire breath or a laser from Legend, etc. I mean, they might happen to stumble upon a good sequence that lets them beat Lung in a 1v1, but that rolls into our next limit.

Secondly, this power rests upon the wielder's own 'determination'. Specifically, the wielder has no reason to Reset back to their Save Point 1,000 times to try and beat Lung when they can just not go out that night instead.

Third, the wielder is limited to their own human mind. They gain no protection against the trauma that constantly getting immolated/stabbed/shot/vaporized causes, and they have nothing else besides their own mind to gain ideas on different alteration to try in simulations.

Basically, this power gives you nothing else but the ability to do things over again. And over and over and over and over and over and over and over...



Now then, I saw that someone was talking about giving Greg dialogue wheels earlier, and I will heartily second that plan. With that said, here's some brainstorming for it.

Power Name: ???

Required Powers:

  • Some kind of social one to get options for Greg
  • Alternatively/Additionally, some kind of precog power to see how people would react, and then select the right words to make it so.
  • Self-mastering effect for the duration of Greg's dialogue choice.
I'm imagining it could work like this: Whenever Greg is near someone, he can mentally feel four options that he can choose to take. He gets a short preview of what they would be like, like a small sentence or general overview. If he chooses one, he is put under a self-mastering effect that forces him to see the dialogue through, no matter how terrified, embarrassed, in pain, nervous, or anything else he might be.

Now, all dialogue trees have 'correct' and 'incorrect' options, and this one is no exception. Out of the four options he has, four different results might occur. One dialogue option will result in an increased sense of closeness, trust, friendship, or whatever else nice thing you could think of in a target. Another option will make the target more hostile, aggressive, etc. A third option could allow Greg to steer the topic of conversation to one of his choice, while the fourth option will allow the conversation to naturally loop back to the previous topic (The one they were discussing before they started in on whatever they're talking about now.)

Now, while this can indeed work on more than one person, it's effects (kind of) diminish with each individual person in the conversation. To put it in practical terms, it's the difference between knowing just what to say to an individual versus being able to please an entire crowd.
 
KidFromPallet(Town?), if you really like PtV, then just re-assemble [Zion]'s PtV Shard.

Step 1 - Eat Negotiator
Step 2 - Eat Future
Step 3 - Eat Twin
Step 4 - (all of the Research)
Step 5 - PtV is You

(You're just so lucky that every single Shard you'd need is already in Brockton Bay.)
 
Last edited:
Let's avoid precognition please. Bare minimum like danger sense, Coil and Dinah are ok. Befriending Ziz is obviously my thing. Halping Quest! Is once again a wonderful example of what not to do, it takes away all our agency. Unsanity even admitted it was a mistake.
 
Since I just remembered about Faultline's Crew, I'm going back to those Shard addresses we couldn't figure out:

Audible-Cricket?
Gaea-Labyrinth?
Growth-Mush?
Gymnastics-?
Jury-Rig-Gregor? Aegis?
Knowledge-Labyrinth? Dinah?
Telekinetic-Parian? (Someone guessed this, but it wasn't added to the chapter.) Faultline? Whirligig?

Known capes not listed in the chapter include:
Wards-Aegis
Protectorate-Dauntless, Velocity, Assault
New Wave-Lady Photon, Brandish, Laserdream, Shielder, Glory Girl, Panacea, Manpower, Flashbang
Coil's capes-Chariot, Trainwreck, Circus
Faultline's Crew-Faultline, Gregor, Newter, Spitfire, Labyrinth
Merchants-Skidmark, Mush, Squealer, Whirligig
Empire-Kaiser, Fenja/Menja, Stormtiger, Cricket, Hookwoof, Rune, Othala, Victor, Purity
ABB-Lung, Oni Lee
Misc.- Parian, Uber & Leet

I'm pretty sure I'm missing some, and I don't know if regular Shards share addresses even if their host hasn't triggered yet. Shift has surprisingly few known addresses from villains other than the Undersiders.

Edit: Removed Browbeat & Dinah and added New Wave and Uber & Leet. I'm not sure if it's canon, but I read somewhere that Whirligig was an independent until she got hooked on drugs and joined the Merchants so she might be triggered at this point. Also, the wiki says that she has telekinesis.
 
Last edited:
Redshirt Army said:
[ ] The entities entire reason in coming to Earth and distributing powers is to acquire information. Human hosts are simply far much more creative and flexible with power usage than shards are. But you aren't a shard, and don't have the same limitations. Look into what exactly the Information you gather from fights actually is, and find a way to use your own creativity to create it.

It'll probably cost some Thinker and maybe Trump info to get the simulations set up, and there's presumably a reason that shards don't just get Information through simulations - but then, they would need to brute-force out Human cognition, whereas as a human-type intelligence Administrator should be able to model human interactions intuitively.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Okay, what if we took my poorly thought idea of programming other Shards, and used a more thought out version of that to give other Shards Dream Mastery and this idea?
Could we have them work with their host to run simulations as they sleep (using the Hosts's dreams to simulate their actions while the Shard does the physics) and gather data that way?
Granted, Noctis capes wouldn't be able to, but if we can offload this to Cauldron and non-sapient Shards we could basically harvest data from them the whole Cycle in return for the huge boost to data production efficiency, especially if we're using that data to improve the current system. Then we don't have to eat anyone, and no one will give a shit about our Aberrational behavior because we just turned a useless downtime into a data farm.

Mount. Elements said:
Known capes not listed in the chapter include:
Wards- Browbeat
Merchants-Whirligig
Misc.-Dinah
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Browbeat and Dinah both triggered in March 2011. It's too soon for them. Whirligig didn't show up until the Leviathan attack and could either be out of town or not Triggered yet.
 
The_GrandMage said:
Browbeat and Dinah both triggered in March 2011. It's too soon for them. Whirligig didn't show up until the Leviathan attack and could either be out of town or not Triggered yet.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I figured that a couple of them hadn't triggered yet, but I wasn't sure if the Shards could share addresses anyway. I just remembered that we did some sort of research so that Administrator could see what was going on even though she hadn't triggered.

I forgot about adding New Wave and Uber & Leet to the list. Could one of the New Wave shards be Gaea? Also, the wiki says that Whirligig has telekinesis so she might be one of the addresses.
 
Last edited:
Generating data isn't so simple as running Sims, entity grade sims are as expensive as fuck to the point that this whole cycle shenanigan is the cheaper less energy intensive alternative.

Even running sims on emulated human brains is likely to be more expensive.

The big problem is bridging the gap between the two distinct forms of intelligence.
 
w34v3r said:
Generating data isn't so simple as running Sims, entity grade sims are as expensive as fuck to the point that this whole cycle shenanigan is the cheaper less energy intensive alternative.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think that's mostly because they're too uncreative. Don't forget the QM's quote that they literally don't know how to Research things, even though they know it should be possible. I think their sims are so terribly cost prohibitive because they have to brute force through everything by basically trying every possible solution for every variable.

Yes, that's super intensive and terrible and the Cycle is obviously a more efficient way of doing things. But it's because Hosts skip a lot of the interim steps a Shard would do. Shards are a lot of processing power but little real creativity in how to use it. Humans are a lot of creativity, but not a lot of processing power to work out ideas.

I mean, I don't see much difference between having two Shards stream data while two Hosts dream, acting out a fight as they sleep and running the simulation is that different from fighting in the real world. Plus the average person dreams 3-5 times a night. How many cape fights does someone get in per day, even in Brockton Bay?

Vhalidictes said:
2) They are inherently uncreative. They do not have the human ability to bullshit. If they don't know something, then they don't know something. They can understand, in a mental-model intellectual way, how Research is a thing and could happen. They just can't do it themselves. They wouldn't even know how to start.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This isn't to say that you're inherently wrong, this may turn out to be not worth it, but it's at least worth looking into to see what the returns are.
After all, if the point is to try and work out a better, more reliable way to generate data, we need to know what works and what doesn't, and why.

Generally speaking the first few things we find that work will probably end up replaced with something else that produces more data later after we refine things, anyway.
 
Last edited:
The dream link may be onto something, especially if the shards enforce physics in the 'dream'.

The problem is shards don't know how all their powers interact.
 
In which case my question is, do they not know because they can't do the math and run the physics, or because they don't know how to set up the equation to have the variables in place to run?

If it's the former, dream sims are a bust. If it's the later, then it's exactly the type of problem the dream sims would be set up to fix, since they have all the environmental factors set up and the Hosts are still designating when and where to do the power effect.
 
It looks like we're going to have to eat dead Shards to gain more info in the short term, but there's some sort of risk involved.
Vhalidictes said:
In the short term, at least, [Eden] Shards are going to be the quickest source of Information - both what they have stored and whatever their Connected Parahuman generates. But it's not entirely risk-free, so that option requires a consensus / sufficient number of votes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My guess is that part of the risk comes from others noticing what Administrator is doing - either other Shards figure out that Administrator has eaten the Eden Shard, or there's some sort of side effect on the host while the Shard is being eaten. Scion shouldn't care about Administrator reclaiming Eden Shards, but is Administrator the only Shard that can eat other Shards, or will it be starting a trend among the Scion Shards?

With that in mind, maybe we should plan which Eden Shard to aim for. We know that Gallant, Triumph, Battery, Coil, Gregor, Newter, and Leet all have Eden Shards, though Leet's Shard is still alive. I think that Aegis might also have a Cauldron Shard, and I remember reading somewhere that Victor does too, but I'm not sure if it's true. Does anyone else know of any Eden Shards? I'd prefer to NOT ping every single address to find them all because that gets Administrator a lot of attention from other Shards including Negotiator.

We should probably start trying to eat another Shard when the host is asleep, but I have no idea how long the process takes. It might also be better to avoid the Case 53s at first in case eating their Shards has an effect on their appearance. We can go back to them later on after Administrator has experience in eating Shards. I also don't really want to tick off the PRT/Protectorate if the process affects the host somehow in the short-term, but that rules out a lot of Shards.

Maybe we should try for Coil's address? He's actually in a pretty good position for Shard consuming since he's not part of a cape team, doesn't have a change in appearance, and is a contractor but not a member of the PRT. The only downside is that I'm not sure how closely Cauldron is watching him.

I also remember reading once that Skidmark is a Cauldron cape, but I'm not sure if it's fanon or canon. If he is, he's also a good possibility since I don't think the Merchants are an actual gang at this point. Hopefully, we can get one of the Protectorate Shards to give us a bunch of villain addresses since Shift didn't have many of them.
 
Well, if we find a way to farm off some other form of data generation, either via dream sims or some other method, having eaten the shards might prove a negative. We can always just pull all data from dead or non-sapient Eden shards to preserve the data since Cycle damage makes their reclamation less certain.
 
Don't think aegis or victor are eden, but I'm pretty sure Alabaster is. And Trainwreck. Accord is the only ambassador who's natural.
Weld, and Hunch are in Boston. Don't know where Gully is, Sveta and some others in the asylum. The travelers of course, soon to be in Boston
The triumvirate of course, Siberian, Shatterbird

Man it would be a dick move to just depower the big three out of nowhere. Someone is totally going to vote for that.

Can we please kill shift before it evolves into super cruel Sophia shard. We're not gonna be able to uplift it before it gains sentience.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top