Green Sun, Black Shadows (CG/Exalted)

Isn't our Personal Pool 16? Or am I not taking into account the motes from your stunt?

Oh, you're right, it is 16. For whatever reason I mixed it up with the 20 free motes in our peripheral pool. However, I didn't take into account the motes regained for the stunt.

We could just remove the use of Shadow Spite Curse altogether - I'm not sure how likely it is that someone like Diethard would miss the parts of the oath that are likely problematic for him given that they're fairly basic and he's not an idiot. Even with three dice taken away from his pool he'd probably notice.
 
Well, it a -1 External Penalty per use, so more like 6 dice or more with your current setup. SSC is Obvious though, so Diethard will know something is amiss.

Not Obvious for us, actually - the end of the Charm description: "Once an Infernal has Essence 3+, she may remove the Obvious keyword from this Charm whenever she activates it." We have Essence 3, so it's not Obvious unless we want it to be.


Also, here's our probabilities for successes in getting him to take an oath in the first place with the current setup:
AnyDice

So good chances of success there, but he may still negotiate the additional terms.
 
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Hm, I missed that. Never mind then.

Still would like your opinion after all the discussion - should we use SSC or not. I could see arguments for either case. I'm fairly certain we can get him to agree to the oath, and even if he does notice the problems in the oath as presented it isn't a big deal to us since we can be fairly secure with the concessions proposed.
 
[X] Plan Interviews and Oaths

@Enjou, I'd avoid using SSC in case he somehow notices via Charmtech. As it stands, we have a strong opening offer and a heavy investment in social skills.

Anyway, if this fails, then we'll just sell him (or his corpse) off to one of the Unquestionables.
 
Still would like your opinion after all the discussion - should we use SSC or not. I could see arguments for either case. I'm fairly certain we can get him to agree to the oath, and even if he does notice the problems in the oath as presented it isn't a big deal to us since we can be fairly secure with the concessions proposed.
*considers*
With the projected 88.71% chance of 7 or more successes, SSC isn't strictly needed I think. Maybe spend 2 more motes on a fourth instance of our 2nd Oramus Excellency to pad out our Manip+Presence roll a bit more instead?
 
*considers*
With the projected 88.71% chance of 7 or more successes, SSC isn't strictly needed I think. Maybe spend 2 more motes on a fourth instance of our 2nd Oramus Excellency to pad out our Manip+Presence roll a bit more instead?

Ok, I'll do that.

I'll note that I expect that Diethard's roll to detect the problems in the oath will be separate from us convincing him to take an oath, determining whether he goes for a vanilla one or a negotiated one, but the difficulty for him on that may depend on how many successes we get to convince him to take an oath in the first place.

EDIT - here's our new probabilities:
AnyDice
 
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@Enjou, minor aesthetic note but I'd prefer if the apple emerged from our own hand instead of Seyrun's. No reason to drop the rift though.

The choice to use Seyrun's hand rather than Lelouch doing so himself is intentional in terms of the imagery I'm going for - it's to impress that what Zero is doing here is more than a mere parlor trick, and that Diethard is being offered a metaphorical deal with the devil. Diethard isn't the kind of person to balk at such a thing, and in fact he would probably be even more tempted due to that.

EDIT - tweaked the stunt a bit to get this across better.
 
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Even if he does notice that the oath is somewhat one-sided, would he mind? He came to us, which means that he wants in to the movement, and taking one-sided oaths isn't that uncommon. The military requires oaths of service, but they don't make oaths to the soldiers. Priests take vows when they join, but the church has no vows to them. Plus, at the end of the day, he's a journalist. Agreeing to keep certain things confidential to protect the identity of "anonymous sources" is entirely routine to him, and a story this big is worth a lot from him.
 
Even if he does notice that the oath is somewhat one-sided, would he mind? He came to us, which means that he wants in to the movement, and taking one-sided oaths isn't that uncommon. The military requires oaths of service, but they don't make oaths to the soldiers. Priests take vows when they join, but the church has no vows to them. Plus, at the end of the day, he's a journalist. Agreeing to keep certain things confidential to protect the identity of "anonymous sources" is entirely routine to him, and a story this big is worth a lot from him.

We're being up front about this being a magically binding oath, which makes it a much bigger decision to enter into since breaking it has dire consequences. He won't likely mind that we make the oath one-sided initially - if he doesn't notice obvious problems like that then he'd blame himself given that he went to law school. Plus it's pretty standard practice to highball/lowball during negotiations, so Zero opening with an oath that favors himself isn't something he'll mind. But if he does notice that much, he'll probably try to even things out.
 
[X] Plan Interviews and Oaths

Oh, I LIKE this. Also, while he is a solar, we know that he explicitly became one due to Lelouch himself. The author said as much.

Now, I can't say it with certainty, but it seems likely to me that the thing which made him exalt was managing to track the Black Knights down as a reporter. Or rather more particularly, managing as a Brittanian and a reporter to discover some of the more supernatureal aspects of some of the Black Knights operations and connect them to us despite whatever essence-fueled measures we have taken to protect our operational security, and then figuring out how to join up.

This would make him a very new exalt, possibly to the extent that this is literally the first thing ever that he is doing as one. Our social here might even be massive overkill, though it is hard to know for sure. Not that I am advocating lightening up; overkill is good. There is NO kill like overkill.
 
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See, the thing is that the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of handing this guy over so the Yozis can forge a new Infernal Exaltation.

I kind of hope he refuses now.
 
We're being up front about this being a magically binding oath, which makes it a much bigger decision to enter into since breaking it has dire consequences. He won't likely mind that we make the oath one-sided initially - if he doesn't notice obvious problems like that then he'd blame himself given that he went to law school. Plus it's pretty standard practice to highball/lowball during negotiations, so Zero opening with an oath that favors himself isn't something he'll mind. But if he does notice that much, he'll probably try to even things out.
Magically binding oath for something he'd probably already be willing to do, so not that objectionable. Second, given that this is in relationship to the supernatural side of things, supernatural enforcement seems a lot more reasonable. Third, we have a lot that he wants. He wants to join us. He wants the knowledge about the supernatural that we can provide. He's the one with more to gain here, we're just asking for some insurance.
 
Oh, I LIKE this. Also, while he is a solar, we know that he explicitly became one due to Lelouch himself. The author said as much.

Now, I can't say it with certainty, but it seems likely to me that the thing which made him exalt was managing to track the Black Knights down as a reporter. Or rather more particularly, managing as a Brittanian and a reporter to discover some of the more supernatureal aspects of some of the Black Knights operations and connect them to us despite whatever essence-fueled measures we have taken to protect our operational security, and then figuring out how to join up.

This would make him a very new exalt, possibly to the extent that this is literally the first thing ever that he is doing as one. Our social here might even be massive overkill, though it is hard to know for sure. Not that I am advocating lightening up; overkill is good. There is NO kill like overkill.

Considering that Diethard managed to find and join the Black Knights in canon, I doubt that's what caused him to Exalt - the Black Knights has a recruiting mechanism of some sort set up that lets interested people find it, and it can't be that difficult to find or nobody would be able to do so. To Exalt as a Solar you generally need to do something impossible, with the Solar Exaltation giving them the juice to make it happen. But he's certainly a new Exalt from what Alexander said - it's only been nine days since our speech, so he'd have Exalted in that time.

Diethard's canon motivation is something along the lines of being the one to present history as it unfolds to the world and making Zero a god in the process - I imagine he did something along these lines that should have been impossible, like getting his superiors to air something that was pro Black Knights that they normally would never dare to.


Magically binding oath for something he'd probably already be willing to do, so not that objectionable. Second, given that this is in relationship to the supernatural side of things, supernatural enforcement seems a lot more reasonable. Third, we have a lot that he wants. He wants to join us. He wants the knowledge about the supernatural that we can provide. He's the one with more to gain here, we're just asking for some insurance.

You misunderstand - the oath as it originally is worded, being a vanilla oath against betrayal, is permanent. There's no backing out of it unless Zero released him from it, unless he wanted to break it. Diethard isn't likely so keen on joining up with Zero and the Black Knights that he would put himself in a position where he couldn't back out no matter what the circumstances are - remember that in canon he was willing to betray Zero and join up with Schneizel because circumstances turned bad for Lelouch. As such, it wouldn't be unexpected that he'd want a reasonable way out or at least assurances that Zero wouldn't betray him if it was convenient for Zero to do so.
 
Okay, I'm available now to start trying to poke holes into your plan's weakspots, Enjou, so that we can further strengthen the plan as a whole.
2. He can walk away now, and the Black Knights let him leave unmolested. (you'll have some Anuhles follow him off site, after which they'll capture or kill him)
I'm not sure about five Anuhles being enough against a Solar, even if he is a newb and probably not combat-specced. I can see Diethard escaping free and with his life, though admitedly not with guaranteed success. He might possibly also have supernatural allies supporting him already. I would in fact like to call Akito and Leila to stand nearby if feasible in case of malicious trickery (even if that seems unlikely currently). Maybe not Leila if we will need them for elimination duties.

Speaking of which, I think that killing him in the unfortunate situation he doesn't even become a basic BK member is not the optimal solution. Sure, he we can probably kill him if we spend enough effort and resources, but we can't destroy or capture the Solar Exaltation -shard itself. It will fly away, and will attach itself to someone else, who could be hostile to us or our cause. And capturing a Solar himself/herself might work, but only in a very short term with the resources and the powerbase we currently have. From what I understand, it just isn't a long-term option. I guess we could send Diethard to Malfeas to be used somehow, but he might escape or be rescued on the five day trip, or after it at some point if he isn't killed soon after Lelouch's bosses get whatever they can out of him. And in that case we will have very likely made a sworn enemy out of an Solar.

Better option would be binding him with an oath not to oppose us for a set period of time, and enforce this with force if necessary. Anuhles, Akito and Lelouch should be enough to make him agree. Or just kill him immediately in the office when he has (presumably) less chances in running away. But luckily, I don't see us requiring any of this based on the meta info we know from canon and QM hints. Just wanted this out of the way first.
First, you will give him the interview you planned to give him in the first place. This will give you an opportunity to get a feel for his character and motivations. Drop a hint or two that you know he's not a normal human being in order to pique his interest further. Provided there are no worrisome issues during the interview, such as excessive levels of deception that make you think he might be a spy, tell him his application is accepted and that he's now a member of the Black Knights.
I can probably write something (this time short) for this part. Not today, but probably tomorrow. We might also want to reserve some motes for Charms at this part if we want to probe him and his motives with more than mortal skill. Nemesis Self Imagined Anew can see use here immediately. And just after Lelouch told Seyrun to monitor, as well as rein in his usage of it if necessary. But Solar is either quite the threat or a massive boon, so I'm for using it now.

Ah, also just realized: Lelouch already used IEI. Current peripheral mote pool: 18 motes.
Stunt: "You and I are not ordinary men, Diethard Ried. We have powers that allow us to carve our very will into the fabric of the world. Powers that allow for rebellion against Britannia, which is why they see us as an existential threat merely because we exist." You speak enigmatically, implying wisdom that the Solar across from you surely lacks. "Yes, I know the maddening truths of the world, and I suspect you do not. However..." as you speak, a rift in reality forming as Seyrun's alien hand comes from within your belly and deposits the apple on your desk. You are certain that the metaphor of forbidden fruit promising knowledge will not be lost on this man, and you can see the journalist's eyes gleam greedily as he realizes what you're implying. Steepling your fingers, you continue. ", perhaps we might come to an accommodation to alleviate that?"
Like Gnarker, I don't like your Stunt's thematic feel of using FSDD. Also unsure if Lelouch has tested it out yet, though he can probably grok it very easily as we now have the Charm fully trained and bought. @Alexander89? Oh, and not fully convinced yet that Diethard hasn't managed to come upon a source on knowledge about supernatural after his Exaltation. Or maybe even before it.

But regardless of that: In Earthscorpion's and Aleph's Kerisgame, FSDD's storage (and other) themes are quite tied to the powers (which are also often tied to their personalities) of the ones using them, which gives them some personalization and uniqueness. Sasi uses her own shadow, and favors Ebon Dragon Charmtech quite much, while Keris herself uses her hair as the portal, which ties to her hair-appendage mutations coming from her coadjutor, who is important to her.

So how about something Oramus-like for Lelouch? Calculating Dho-Hna Angles gives a good starting point, so how about we steal the effect the "shifting kaleidoscope mirror" -theme from Doctor Strange, with Lelouch reaching inside such distortion and taking the apple?

But now that I've given my take on how to use it in a hopefully cool way, how about we don't use it instead? Because that is a heretical power, both in OOC mechanical term and IC according to Seyrun. While for a new Solar it is (probably) not that easy to guess how unusual it truly is from just seeing that demonstration, knowledge spreading about it is not something we can afford. Currently, the less everybody knows, the better. But regardless of how whatever we use or not use it here, I still suggest the kaleidoscope mirror as Lelouch theme for the pocket dimension storage -function.
See, the thing is that the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of handing this guy over so the Yozis can forge a new Infernal Exaltation.

I kind of hope he refuses now.
Not possible, if I'm remembering things correctly. The Solar Exaltations being held in the Jade Prison beforehand was the only reason that the Neverborn and the Yozi could capture and hold half of the 300 shards. The Solar Exaltation (as well as all the others) were made specifically with the design goal of maximum independent functioning, indestructibility, inviolability and as uncatchable as possible. In which they succeeded pretty well in the Primordial War by how thing turned out.
 
Like Gnarker, I don't like your Stunt's thematic feel of using FSDD. Also unsure if Lelouch has tested it out yet, though he can probably grok it very easily as we now have the Charm fully trained and bought. @Alexander89?
Anesidora may have tested things when she wanted to taste beforehand a rather tasty looking cake Lelouch was making for Nunnally. After freaking our some more, Lelouch, with mush hesitation, started experimenting. The apple thing is possible, but Lelouch has not yet complete control and knowledge of it: like turning a switch, you know the result but not the process.
 
I'm not sure about five Anuhles being enough against a Solar, even if he is a newb and probably not combat-specced. I can see Diethard escaping free and with his life, though admitedly not with guaranteed success. He might possibly also have supernatural allies supporting him already. I would in fact like to call Akito and Leila to stand nearby if feasible in case of malicious trickery (even if that seems unlikely currently). Maybe not Leila if we will need them for elimination duties.

Speaking of which, I think that killing him in the unfortunate situation he doesn't even become a basic BK member is not the optimal solution. Sure, he we can probably kill him if we spend enough effort and resources, but we can't destroy or capture the Solar Exaltation -shard itself. It will fly away, and will attach itself to someone else, who could be hostile to us or our cause. And capturing a Solar himself/herself might work, but only in a very short term with the resources and the powerbase we currently have. From what I understand, it just isn't a long-term option. I guess we could send Diethard to Malfeas to be used somehow, but he might escape or be rescued on the five day trip, or after it at some point if he isn't killed soon after Lelouch's bosses get whatever they can out of him. And in that case we will have very likely made a sworn enemy out of an Solar.

Better option would be binding him with an oath not to oppose us for a set period of time, and enforce this with force if necessary. Anuhles, Akito and Lelouch should be enough to make him agree. Or just kill him immediately in the office when he has (presumably) less chances in running away. But luckily, I don't see us requiring any of this based on the meta info we know from canon and QM hints. Just wanted this out of the way first.

1. I'm not sure where you're getting "five Anuhles" from - I said 'some', which I would take to mean however many Lelouch and Seyrun think would be needed to succeed. Also, given Diethard is almost assuredly not a combat spec Solar and he'd have no way to detect immaterial beings at Essence 2, over a dozen Anuhles should be able to kill him easily. Regardless, Lelouch should see any incorporeal allies Diethard has given his essence sight is always on, so I'm not terribly worried about that.

2. We should have most of our Anuhles around for security. I kind of presumed that the default behavior would be for Lelouch to have the bulk of them in the room with him waiting to pounce on Diethard if he turns hostile. Didn't seem to need to be said.

3. You raise a good point about making him an enemy if he escapes. I'll adjust things to your suggestion of giving him the 'no opposition oath' option if he chooses to walk.

Like Gnarker, I don't like your Stunt's thematic feel of using FSDD. Also unsure if Lelouch has tested it out yet, though he can probably grok it very easily as we now have the Charm fully trained and bought. @Alexander89? Oh, and not fully convinced yet that Diethard hasn't managed to come upon a source on knowledge about supernatural after his Exaltation. Or maybe even before it.

But regardless of that: In Earthscorpion's and Aleph's Kerisgame, FSDD's storage (and other) themes are quite tied to the powers (which are also often tied to their personalities) of the ones using them, which gives them some personalization and uniqueness. Sasi uses her own shadow, and favors Ebon Dragon Charmtech quite much, while Keris herself uses her hair as the portal, which ties to her hair-appendage mutations coming from her coadjutor, who is important to her.

So how about something Oramus-like for Lelouch? Calculating Dho-Hna Angles gives a good starting point, so how about we steal the effect the "shifting kaleidoscope mirror" -theme from Doctor Strange, with Lelouch reaching inside such distortion and taking the apple?

But now that I've given my take on how to use it in a hopefully cool way, how about we don't use it instead? Because that is a heretical power, both in OOC mechanical term and IC according to Seyrun. While for a new Solar it is (probably) not that easy to guess how unusual it truly is from just seeing that demonstration, knowledge spreading about it is not something we can afford. Currently, the less everybody knows, the better. But regardless of how whatever we use or not use it here, I still suggest the kaleidoscope mirror as Lelouch theme for the pocket dimension storage -function.

1. I could look into a thematic change. I just want it to be sufficiently alien and strange in a way that suits a deal with the devil motif. It also needs to appear to be more than a mere parlor trick. Maybe a kaleidoscope of impossible not-colors, suiting Dual-Gaze Paradox? I'm not sure that suits the motif I'm going for though. Perhaps add in some swirling shadows for the Ebon Dragon? That could work, since it's both dark and eldritch at the same time.

2. I asked Alexander89 about the use of the charm this way and he never responded. Given that Anesidora has asked for lab equipment and the Exalted usually have at least an instinctual understanding of their own powers I am hoping that Lelouch has discovered this ability. But if @Alexander89 says we have not, then I'll think of something else. However, that will mean we'd have to use some other power in order to impress upon him that we have powers too in a sufficiently impressive display, and the only other good thing I can think to do would be use Bloodless Murk Evasion to turn into shadow and appear behind him, but that's rather mote intensive. (Darkling Grace Complete unfortunately doesn't seem like a good option given the situation, even if it would be free)

3. I'm not too worried about the heretical aspects of the Charm. Infernal powers are weird, and Lelouch is the only Infernal with access to Oramus's Charms. It wouldn't be odd for Oramus to have a pocket dimension Charm, and making new Charms for the Yozis is something Infernals can do that isn't heretical. I don't think any of our fellow Infernals or even any demons would bat an eye at it. As long as we don't start telling people that we have an inner world and have soul budded until we're more ready to do so (which is going to have to happen given other Infernals are going to start going through the same process) I don't think we need to sweat it.


Anesidora may have tested things when she wanted to taste beforehand a rather tasty looking cake Lelouch was making for Nunnally. After freaking our some more, Lelouch, with mush hesitation, started experimenting. The apple thing is possible, but Lelouch has not yet complete control and knowledge of it: like turning a switch, you know the result but not the process.

Well that's good, but I would like confirmation that Lelouch understands it enough to pull off the stunt. If not, I need to know so I can make the necessary adjustments to the plan.
 
Well that's good, but I would like confirmation that Lelouch understands it enough to pull off the stunt. If not, I need to know so I can make the necessary adjustments to the plan.
If it's an apple he can pull it off. Said apple may or may not have been warped by its time within the Devil Domain, but as long as neither of them eat it should be okay.
 
Well that's good, but I would like confirmation that Lelouch understands it enough to pull off the stunt. If not, I need to know so I can make the necessary adjustments to the plan.
Clearly Lulu tries to do his trick but Anesidora pops out of his belly, waves and steals some candy before popping back in.
 
1. I'm not sure where you're getting "five Anuhles" from - I said 'some', which I would take to mean however many Lelouch and Seyrun think would be needed to succeed. Also, given Diethard is almost assuredly not a combat spec Solar and he'd have no way to detect immaterial beings at Essence 2, over a dozen Anuhles should be able to kill him easily. Regardless, Lelouch should see any incorporeal allies Diethard has given his essence sight is always on, so I'm not terribly worried about that.
...Hmm. My brain just seems to have assumed that you were suggesting five. Thanks for the clarification. But I would still like to go for an overkill with Akito, because those potential allies aren't necessarily that close where Diethard and Lelouch are. They might be hiding in some nearby building, for example, ready to burst in if they get some kind of signal or Diethard escapes the building. They might tail him in the shadows if he just walks away unharmed, to prevent any assassination attempts. Or they might be disguised as one of our subordinates in this very room, while also fooling our essence sight, etc.

Functional paranoia is the way to go when planning rebellion against the worlds largest superpower and leading an ancient infernal conspiracy. Might as well get started now.
1. I could look into a thematic change. I just want it to be sufficiently alien and strange in a way that suits a deal with the devil motif. It also needs to appear to be more than a mere parlor trick. Maybe a kaleidoscope of impossible not-colors, suiting Dual-Gaze Paradox? I'm not sure that suits the motif I'm going for though. Perhaps add in some swirling shadows for the Ebon Dragon? That could work, since it's both dark and eldritch at the same time.
Swirling mirror-shard kaleidoscope, with the mirror-shards shifting rapidly in impossible colours, and occasionally a black shard popping up that is in turn impossibly dark and seems to suck all the light surrounding it in?
3. I'm not too worried about the heretical aspects of the Charm. Infernal powers are weird, and Lelouch is the only Infernal with access to Oramus's Charms. It wouldn't be odd for Oramus to have a pocket dimension Charm, and making new Charms for the Yozis is something Infernals can do that isn't heretical. I don't think any of our fellow Infernals or even any demons would bat an eye at it. As long as we don't start telling people that we have an inner world and have soul budded until we're more ready to do so (which is going to have to happen given other Infernals are going to start going through the same process) I don't think we need to sweat it.
Point conceded. My suggestion at this part might have gone over to non-functional paranoia.
 
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Not possible, if I'm remembering things correctly. The Solar Exaltations being held in the Jade Prison beforehand was the only reason that the Neverborn and the Yozi could capture and hold half of the 300 shards. The Solar Exaltation (as well as all the others) were made specifically with the design goal of maximum independent functioning, indestructibility, inviolability and as uncatchable as possible. In which they succeeded pretty well in the Primordial War by how thing turned out.
In canon, the Neverborn and their servants repeatedly managed to capture Solars and convert their Exaltations into Abyssal ones.

If their literally DEAD siblings could pull it off, I see no possible reason to believe that the Yozis couldn't pull off the same.

No offense meant, but dayum.
 
well keep in mind, whatever is done to a solar shard to make it into an abyssal one is reversible, within the life of a single exalt. I suspect it's a far simpler modification than what would be needed to create an infernal exaltation. Hell, the process might only work because they can do it to a living solar instead of killing one and trying to catch the exaltation. Which says something about the difficulty of catching those.
 
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