Green Sun, Black Shadows (CG/Exalted)

Really? Thank you for the info. Yeah, the first fits Lian well.
No problem, I only know this because I practiced a few styles of martial arts growing up (Karate, a Japanese style; and Taekwondo which is a Korean style) and in official matches, the fighters must bow both to the referee and each other. In modern schools, we were taught to express Peace over War; which was symbolic in saying that we viewed the match as a peaceful spar, thus whether we won or lost; we would not add salt to wounds or try to get vengeance respectively (or try to seriously harm our opponent during the match; which with certain attack avenues is easily accomplished; for example, breaking someones elbow with a blow that pushes it opposite to how it bends; if the elbow is broken with such a blow, surgery is needed to fix it...and there is a high possibility they will never regain full function/motion of their arm).

As far as I could find, traditionally, this was done to show your adversary respect as well as your (ultimate [as there is obviously more then two beliefs, but it was believed all others were subsidiary to one of these two, which were viewed similarly as Yin and Yang in nature]) philosophical leanings (which in Asian nations is attached to all of your beliefs; whether religion, politics, military, etc.). If your opponent expressed the opposite belief, and the match wasn't to the death; it would be safe to assume you would likely be unable to form a lasting agreement with them if any at all.
 
No problem, I only know this because I practiced a few styles of martial arts growing up (Karate, a Japanese style; and Taekwondo which is a Korean style) and in official matches, the fighters must bow both to the referee and each other. In modern schools, we were taught to express Peace over War; which was symbolic in saying that we viewed the match as a peaceful spar, thus whether we won or lost; we would not add salt to wounds or try to get vengeance respectively (or try to seriously harm our opponent during the match; which with certain attack avenues is easily accomplished; for example, breaking someones elbow with a blow that pushes it opposite to how it bends; if the elbow is broken with such a blow, surgery is needed to fix it...and there is a high possibility they will never regain full function/motion of their arm).

As far as I could find, traditionally, this was done to show your adversary respect as well as your (ultimate [as there is obviously more then two beliefs, but it was believed all others were subsidiary to one of these two, which were viewed similarly as Yin and Yang in nature]) philosophical leanings (which in Asian nations is attached to all of your beliefs; whether religion, politics, military, etc.). If your opponent expressed the opposite belief, and the match wasn't to the death; it would be safe to assume you would likely be unable to form a lasting agreement with them if any at all.
In that case, since this is not a match, you could see it as Lian saying she believes action is more important than words. Not that she wants to challenge Zero to a dead match.

Is this just poor description that is trying to say that if Bob the Slayer succeeds, they bypass the effect and learn the truth? Seyrun's IC explanation seems to be saying so:
Changed the text:
Assumption of Mu said:
Ask what Oramus is, and you will receive no answer. Ask what he is not, and you will receive them all. Any action or ability that reveals something about the Infernal (no matter where it's performed in relation to her) automatically succeeds, but instead of the truth reveals that some other thing, which must be plausible and fitting with the question asked (as determined by the Storyteller), is false. Against Charms and other magical effects this effect usually results in a roll-off, to which it provides (Essence) bonus successes. If possible, this Charm returns a different negative each time.

Example: Bob the paranoid Slayer uses Insignificant Embers Intuition on John the puny Malefactor. Normally the Charm would reveal that John has Essence 2, but if John has Assumption of Mu and wins the roll-off Bob will instead learn that John doesn't have Essence 3, leaving him wondering if John is weaker than his own Essence 3 or outweighs him at Essence 4+.
Now it's correct.

On another note, a certain quest of mine (I don't provide links or names to not offend the mods) has been resurrected by the abyss of SB. Check it out if the premise pleases you :D
 
Changed the text:

Now it's correct.
Thanks for the clarification, will continue to speculate (probably tomorrow). But I would like first to voice my approval on especially the first part of the update. One reason why I try to find good Infernal fics and quests is the strange transhumanistic themes they take, and how you described it was interesting to read. Getting information about someone by becoming a person whose goal in life is to thwart theirs is more intriguing than simple Solar awesomeness, at least to me.
 
Ok, so I want thoughts on a general plan...

1. Either...
a. Give him the interview we planned to give him as if nothing is wrong. So long as we don't detect any worrying lies, hire him into the Black Knights.
b. Walk in. Say "You have my interest, Diethard Ried... You're hired!" Might work to throw him off balance.
2. Bring him to our office for a more private conversation. At this point we give him a new offer after we imply we know what he is - he can have a suitable job within the Black Knights but be kept in ignorance, or he can learn the horrible truths of the world and be let into our inner circle provided he'll swear an oath of loyalty to us (of course, we'll not tell him that it's magically enforced oath, though - but it'd be a good lesson to him). As a caveat, the loyalty oath is to be kept in spirit, meaning he doesn't have to strictly obey us, just act in the way he thinks is best - so long as he doesn't do something he thinks would betray us, he'll have a lot more freedom of action that he would otherwise. (we could also work in release conditions for the oath if he wants, like if he gives us notice of him leaving and he takes no actions against us and ours for a year he'll be free to leave)

The hope is that we can get his general loyalty by baiting him with the things that have been hidden from him all his life. That's somewhat based on OOC knowledge, but we're still a bit on the canon rails at this point, so... *shrug*
 
Thanks for the clarification, will continue to speculate (probably tomorrow). But I would like first to voice my approval on especially the first part of the update. One reason why I try to find good Infernal fics and quests is the strange transhumanistic themes they take, and how you described it was interesting to read. Getting information about someone by becoming a person whose goal in life is to thwart theirs is more intriguing than simple Solar awesomeness, at least to me.
Thank you. I also find it to be the best when Infernals Charms are being portrayed as more than simple game mechanisms, and what effects they have when translated to narrative reality.

I wonder what his Limit Break is?
His main is Conviction. Take a guess.

So those 17 successes got us a solar... not sure if that is totally worth it or us being victims of our own success, probably both
You're more right than you think with that. As I can safely said that Diethard became a Solar thanks to Lelouch.
 
Well, there are two Conviction flaws in the core book, but those are just examples. It's entirely possible for him to get his own unique Limit Break if you wanted to give him one.
It was a hint for what kind of flavor his LB has. Diethard is capable of much to achieve his goals. Sometimes, too much.
 
Ok, so I want thoughts on a general plan...
Hmm. While I generally agree on normal interview and then moving on to talking about the supernatural in private, I think that we should be open about what the agreement would truly mean. For example, working that (or any other kind of) release condition to the wording without it seeming suspicious to a relatively smart mortal would be hard. And even if I'm guessing that he wouldn't probably mind that much being tricked like that by his idol based on the meta of the canon and him Exalting because of the Zero's speech, the chance still exists.

Then there what the "act in the way he thinks is best" implies. It is an geas that demands him to take certain kinds of actions, which has a (probably small) chance of causing trouble. Not sure what specifically it could cause, but I think that just "don't betray me" is safer as it just prohibits certain actions. This might be also better in the case other voters lean more towards tricking Diethard to the oath, as we won't have to mask an escape clause too to our offer and raise the chance of him realising that we are trying something fishy. If he accepts, he can do whenever else he wants, but just can't betray us.

And with how the Eclipse -style oaths work, we won't even have to include clauses about not betraying Lelouch's masters or the Black Knights, and so on, as their causes are (currently) more or less his causes. Also, this way if we ever have to drop one of our current causes, he won't be bound to not betray them.
 
Ok, here's my basic plan as it currently stands:

First, you will give him the interview you planned to give him in the first place. This will give you an opportunity to get a feel for his character and motivations. Drop a hint or two that you know he's not a normal human being in order to pique his interest further. Provided there are no worrisome issues during the interview, such as excessive levels of deception that make you think he might be a spy, tell him his application is accepted and that he's now a member of the Black Knights.

From there, tell him you want to have a conversation in private to discuss his role within your organization.

Once in the privacy of your office, you'll reveal a few interesting facts for free - you know that Diethard is not a normal man, to the extent that you know exactly what he has become, and that his very existence is Anathema to Britannia's rulers. You are in fact a similar existence, and happen to know quite a bit of the world that is hidden from the eyes of normal people, and you're willing to make him an offer.

He can swear an oath to you that he will not betray you and that he never reveals your identity without your permission. Breaking the oath will have dire consequences, but he'll know if something he is about to do will break it and so long as he keeps to the spirit of the oath he shouldn't have anything to worry about. The exchange for this is that you'll reveal the truths of the world - what he is, the world's real history, and even your identity - as well as bringing him into your inner circle. He'll have a front row seat to witness history being written, or could write it himself if he so desires.
- If he asks for an escape clause or notes that nothing in the oath prevents you from betraying him, suggest that either of you can end the deal by notifying the other party in a way that wouldn't in and of itself constitute betrayal (for example, in the middle of an operation where doing so would screw over the other party), after which neither of you can act against one another for a year and a day. He'll still be bound to keep your identity secret if that knowledge hasn't already become public, though. If he notes that a year is a long time, inform him that he has the potential to live for several thousand years, so in the grand scheme of things it really isn't. Negotiate further terms if needed, so long as any new terms are reasonable and can't likely be turned against you.

His alternatives to taking the deal are...
1. He's still a Black Knight. He just has to work his way through the ranks through merit and has to earn your trust the hard way. (you'll have a couple demons secretly watching him at all times)
2. He can walk away now, and the Black Knights let him leave unmolested. (you'll have some Anuhles follow him off site, after which they'll capture or kill him)

Stunt: <tbd>

Charm Use: <tbd>

I have a few ideas for the stunt. I'm thinking Oramus excellency would be best here, and possibly we could use the effect of Fourth Soul Devil Domain to let us pull out an apple in the middle of the conversation to theatrically represent us offering fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, as well as proving we have powers. Though I don't know if Lelouch has discovered that asset of his new power or not - @Alexander89 would need to tell us that.

We could also use Shadow Spite Curse to reduce chances that Diethard would notice the lack of clauses in the oath we're offering that give him protection from us and outs, though he's probably got a good dice pool for Perception/Manipulation and whatever the other skill would be so there's no guarantee of that working entirely.

Any other thoughts?
 
I don't see an issue with your plan Enjou, a good plan as always :)

Now that this is up and running again I realize how much I missed the quest and posting in it.
 
- If he asks for an escape clause or notes that nothing in the oath prevents you from betraying him, suggest that either of you can end the deal by notifying the other party in a way that wouldn't in and of itself constitute betrayal (for example, in the middle of an operation where doing so would screw over the other party), after which neither of you can act against one another for a year and a day. He'll still be bound to keep your identity secret if that knowledge hasn't already become public, though. If he notes that a year is a long time, inform him that he has the potential to live for several thousand years, so in the grand scheme of things it really isn't. Negotiate further terms if needed, so long as any new terms are reasonable and can't likely be turned against you.

Better yet, Zero requires a 60 day notice before betrayal/quitting.
 
Ok, posting the full plan. Suggestions for tweaks are appreciated.

[X] Plan Interviews and Oaths

First, you will give him the interview you planned to give him in the first place. This will give you an opportunity to get a feel for his character and motivations. Drop a hint or two that you know he's not a normal human being in order to pique his interest further. Provided there are no worrisome issues during the interview, such as excessive levels of deception that make you think he might be a spy, tell him his application is accepted and that he's now a member of the Black Knights.

From there, tell him you want to have a conversation in private to discuss his role within your organization.

Once in the privacy of your office, you'll reveal a few interesting facts for free - you know that Diethard is not a normal man, to the extent that you know exactly what he has become, and that his very existence is Anathema to Britannia's rulers. You are in fact a similar existence, and happen to know quite a bit of the world that is hidden from the eyes of normal people, and you're willing to make him an offer.

He can swear an oath to you that he will not betray you and that he never reveals your identity without your permission. Breaking the oath will have dire consequences, but he'll know if something he is about to do will break it and so long as he keeps to the spirit of the oath he shouldn't have anything to worry about. The exchange for this is that you'll reveal the truths of the world - what he is, the world's real history, and even your identity - as well as bringing him into your inner circle. He'll have a front row seat to witness history being written, or could write it himself if he so desires.
- If he asks for an escape clause or notes that nothing in the oath prevents you from betraying him, suggest that either of you can end the deal by notifying the other party in a way that wouldn't in and of itself constitute betrayal (for example, in the middle of an operation where doing so would screw over the other party), after which neither of you can act against one another for a year and a day. He'll still be bound to keep your identity secret if that knowledge hasn't already become public, though. If he notes that a year is a long time, inform him that he has the potential to live for several thousand years, so in the grand scheme of things it really isn't. Negotiate further terms if needed, so long as any new terms are reasonable and can't likely be turned against you.

His alternatives to taking the deal are...
1. He's still a Black Knight. He just has to work his way through the ranks through merit and has to earn your trust the hard way. (you'll have a couple demons secretly watching him at all times)
2. He can walk away now provided he'll swear an oath to not oppose you for a year and a day, and you will not send anyone to do harm to him as part of that deal.

Stunt: "You and I are not ordinary men, Diethard Ried. We have powers that allow us to carve our very will into the fabric of reality. Powers that allow for rebellion against Britannia, which is why they see us as an existential threat merely because we exist." You speak enigmatically, implying wisdom that the Solar across from you surely lacks. "Yes, I know the maddening truths of the world, and I suspect you do not. However..." Diethard's eyes widen in shock as an alien kaleidoscope of glass shards shining in impossible not-colors and darkness so black it seems to suck in the light appears before you, your hand reaching as if within your belly and pulling out the apple and gently placing it on the desk before him. You are certain that the metaphor of forbidden fruit promising knowledge will not be lost on this man, and you are proven right as the journalist adopts a manic smile as his eyes gleam with greed as he realizes what you're about to offer. Steepling your fingers, you continue. ", perhaps we might come to an accommodation to alleviate that?"

Charm Use:
Use one dice from your Stunt Pool if needed to drive the stunt up to three dice.
Fourth-Soul Devil Domain - Before the interview, you will get an apple (presumably from the cafeteria) and discreetly store it in your Devil Domain. You will bring it out at the appropriate time. This will be a theatrical metaphor of the for the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, used to enhance the stunt.
Use four uses of Second Oramus Excellency to boost the Presence + Manipulation roll to convince Diethard to take the Oath. (8 motes)
Channel Conviction to add an extra dice to the Presence + Manipulation roll to convince Diethard to take the Oath.
 
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Use three uses of Second Oramus Excellency to boost the Presence + Manipulation roll to convince Diethard to take the Oath. (6 motes)
Use three uses of Shadow Spite Curse to try to prevent Diethard from noticing the oath being offered doesn't contain clauses to allow him to back out or to prevent you from betraying him. (9 motes)
Yikes, that is pretty much all our Personal Pool.
 
Yikes, that is pretty much all our Personal Pool.

It leaves five motes there, which will regen at the normal rate. I suppose the question is whether or not we will need those motes before we have a chance to recharge. If not, then we're better off making the expenditure - Diethard is a Solar, and I suspect he'll have high enough Perception/Wits and Integrity/Social that he could notice that the deal we're offering isn't optimal for him. We could just not bother trying to hide that and hope that his MDV is sufficiently lowered by preying on his Motivation and Intimacies.


Also, adding channeling a dot of Conviction to the deal to up our dice pool a bit more. I almost always forget we can do that.
 
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