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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Ok, vote closed, lets see how this goes.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jan 5, 2023 at 8:27 PM, finished with 126 posts and 21 votes.
  • [X]Plan Snitching
    -[X] Just the brief meeting with Wright
    -[X] The fact that they tried to bug your car, probably illegally
    -[X] Explain your suspicion that someone associated with the events of 22nd July might be manipulating the FBI
    -[X] What is the Library of Congress' relationship with
    --[X] ...the Catholic Church?
    --[X] ...the White Council?
    -[X] When he says his organization destroys knowledge what does he mean?
    -[X]STUNT: You interlace your fingers in your lap as you close your eyes. How to put this..."An observer" you start, in an attempt at detachment "of local...events, would notice that the timeline journalists have reported for the museum atrocity" and here you fail to keep the snarl out of your voice "seemed to have coincided with the time period when the FBI and CPD took Harry Dresden into custody on homicide charges. Given the lengthy preparations it must have taken to infiltrate an institution in the heart of Chicago and manage to murder that many victims without drawing attention, a suspicious mind might wonder what other preparations were taken." You open your eyes and fix him with your blue one. "Im not impugning any of the field agents here, Mr Hyde. They have their share of culpability, but I doubt they set policy." You say nothing about their bosses, and you see his eyes flicker at where you lay emphasis. "But it strikes me that if you wanted to commit a mass murder to magic purposes, you might find it useful to be able to use law enforcement to remove opposition. And its a fact that Agent Wright and his colleagues became active here in time to impede one of the people who might have noticed and prevented the murders of 22nd July. It raises questions about who arranged for agents of the National Security Division to come to Chicago with such...fortuitous timing." There is a pause of several seconds when neither of the other two men in the room says anything, then you smile a mirthless smile. "And when you consider all that, you begin to wonder what kind of result was hoped for when someone ordered a group of federal agents and a SWAT team to arrest a wizard in the middle of the Vampire War. At a time when, as you said, all too many respond readily with force."
    [X] The fact that they tried to bug your car, probably illegally
    [X] Explain Katrina and your suspicion that someone associated with her might be manipulating the FBI
    -[X] DO NOT tell him about murdering anyone. At all. In general do not tell him anything that can be used against you in the court of law.
    -[X] Explain how first the police was used against Dresden, and then the FBI.
    [X] What is the Library of Congress' relationship with
    -[X] ...the Catholic Church?
    -[X] ...the White Council?
    [X] When he says his organization destroys knowledge what does he mean?
    [X] Are they open to collaboration? You are already writing that book with Bob after all, offering them a copy would cost you nothing.
    -[X] DO NOT mention Bob
    [X] If they are a library, how do you get the library card for their occult section?
    [X] The fact that they tried to bug your car, probably illegally
    [X] What is the Library of Congress' relationship with
    -[X] ...the Catholic Church?
    [X] Write In - "Look, they're not very competent, and in their bumbling around they're going to offend someone far more scary than me eventually. Or worse, get suborned. I thought they were fishy after they tried to illegally bug my car, so I hacked into their systems and discovered that they deliberately arrested Dresden - a White Council Regional Warden Commander - when they knew he was innocent to try and blackmail him. Dresden was at the time pursuing a group of Kemmlerite Nazi Necromancers and their intervention meant the Nazi's almost managed to get away.'
    [X] Write in - "Well, to start with he arrested a man he knew for a fact was innocent in an attempt to pressure him into working for them, without any real protections stopping that man from twisting them into a knot save his own moral code. That was both deeply unethical and dangerously stupid."
    [X] The fact that they tried to bug your car, probably illegally
    [X] Explain Katrina and your suspicion that someone associated with her might be manipulating the FBI
    [X] What is the Library of Congress' relationship with
    -[X] ...the Catholic Church?
    -[X] ...the White Council?
    [X] When he says his organization destroys knowledge what does he mean?
    [X] Are they open to collaboration? You are already writing that book with Bob after all, offering them a copy would cost you nothing.
    [X] If they are a library, how do you get the library card for their occult section?
    [X] Write in - Oh, god, they are... um... really really unprepaired to deal with basically, well, anything to do with the supernatural while mistakenly beliving they have a handle on it due to the tiny drop of power they have. I know. I was in the same place too. I got impaled on a spike of ice in Arctis Tor for it and now I am... well, you noticed the cold. Please, if you have that sort of authority, intervene. They should not go through what I did.
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Yog said:
I am still trying to work out why people think that Molly needing only 1 hour of sleep via the use of potions would be strongly associated with Molly taking drugs in Charity's and Michael's minds (unless there are other social repercussions people mean, which I am not seeing at all, as long as we don't wake our family while still living in Carpenter house).
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I don't understand how you think there won't be. It's a factually true statement that such a potion is essentially magical drugs; probably no side effects because exalted, but that doesn't change what it is or looks like.

You can talk about it being super coffee or whatever, but that argument is entirely irrelevant. ADD pills and coffee are both legal stimulants with few side effects, but if you pop pills in the morning without a prescription people will be concerned*.

The complication here isn't what things are, it's what they look like.

Which is Molly forming a habit for taking magic drugs to get through the day. Something that will have an obvious and dramatic effect on her life and lifestyle. Charity, with her love for all things magical, will probably not start off assuming everything is fine especially with Molly's history.

She'd be right to feel that way too, since no one IC knows what an exalt is or how they work and we've kept a lot from her in particular so far. Charity doesn't know that Molly can just shrug off the side effects of nearly anything this low key over enough time.

Since Molly has already broken faith in this before it'll be hard to get them to trust us now.

In terms of other social consequences: Rosie.

She has a derangement about this, which fundamentally isn't rational. She's sane and nice when dealing with any other subject, but that one will touch the crazy button we installed.

To someone without an understanding of alchemy and exalts any argument we could raise would sound like those of an addict defending themselves. Hiding it for an extended period of time would just make it worse when she found out.

That's not even getting into what'd happen if we did this and then came clean about what Molly did to her. Talk about salting the wound.



* yeah it's illegal to buy them without one, but that hardly stops people.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I don't understand how you think there won't be. It's a factually true statement that such a potion is essentially magical drugs; probably no side effects because exalted, but that doesn't change what it is or looks like.
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Could you please clearly write the definition of the word "drugs" you are using, please? Because, same as with Uju, I get a feeling that we are using different definitions.

Also, as to the second part of this sentence (responding to everything else is futile until we at least agree on definitions), I have already stated my position on this - as far as textual analysis of the source books goes, this potion doesn't have side effects, either immediate or long-term ones. No exalted shenanigans necessary. A storyteller is free to add them, of course, but the source books themselves have zero indications that there are any, and some indications, both direct and indirect, that there are none.
 
I don't really see the big deal with using magical means to sidestep the need for sleep, so long as doing so doesn't cause us harm. Yes, sleep is normally required for all sorts of biological necessities, but magic neatly avoids those issues, at least in the case of the Alchemical solutions ya'll have been going round and round over.

That said, sleep is not always the enemy. Sometimes being able to just lay down, relax, and take a long nap or get a good night's sleep is a great way to mentally reset and de-stress. There are few better ways to get a fresh perspective on a problem than setting it aside and coming back to it after good night's sleep.

The only real issues I see with using the Alchemical go-juice regularly are the social ones that might crop up due to Molly's family and friends, for reasons that have already been expounded on so very, very thoroughly. There is, however, a relatively simple solution to this problem. We can just move out and get our own place. Molly will be 18 soon and has the means to provide for herself without much trouble. She also has a new Death God-adjacent Scion buddy who lives alone in a mansion who might be willing to rent her a room.
 
Goldfish said:
We can just move out and get our own place.
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This also needs to be discussed. Moving out, that is, if and when to do it.

The arguments for moving out are:
1) Higher degree of autonomy, including stuff like no sleep potion (though I'd much prefer to be open about it, and talk it out with our parents beforehand), ability to engage in larger scale workings, etc.
2) Higher degree of customization. Stuff like a dedicated freezer workshop, cyberdevil smarthouse and potentially robotic / demonic servants, a dedicated ritual room, etc.
3) Ability to house other people without putting strain on our family, or putting them in danger. As part of the Order of Cauldron we are bound to offer shelter to other practitioners. As part of our obligations to Rosie, I am fairly sure we are also bound to offer her a place to stay when she needs it. We can't do that in our current house without strongly inconveniencing our family.

The arguments against moving out are:
1) Loss of angelic home protections that we'll need to compensate with our own efforts
2) Loss of contact with our family to some degree. That's unavoidable once we go to college, but we might not want to rush it
3) Loss of opportunity - we haven't found a suitable place to make / buy our dwellings yet.

What I think we should do is to buy Essence-Dissenting Stare, than scout Chicago and nearby areas for the best place to buy, which happens to be in a Dragon's Nest. Or spend the Crown question on the Last Station to find the map of (unclaimed) (proto-)Dragon's Nests in Chicago area.
 
Note that the reason that most people wouldn't use an Alchemical sleep reducer is that by default, someone with two dots of Alchemy would take two days of work to make a dose, and that dose would need to be taken within a day of making it. As a result, it's basically infeasible unless you have minions making it for you.

You'd need four dots of alchemy to cut the time down to several hours of work.

So yes, at 4 dots of alchemy (which would be very rare) you could spend an afternoon making a dose you take that day that would mean you hardly need to sleep for the next week.

Needing to spend one success on the roll for each dose and for each extra day before it stops working means you need to roll nine successes on your synthesising attempt to turn that into one afternoon's for two weeks worth of doses, which is basically impossible for non-solaroids.

Edit: the only reason this is potentially feasible for Molly is that she can apply Tool Transcending Constructs to cut time the concocting time down by 80%.
 
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Yog said:
Could you please clearly write the definition of the word "drugs" you are using, please? Because, same as with Uju, I get a feeling that we are using different definitions.

Also, as to the second part of this sentence (responding to everything else is futile until we at least agree on definitions), I have already stated my position on this - as far as textual analysis of the source books goes, this potion doesn't have side effects, either immediate or long-term ones. No exalted shenanigans necessary. A storyteller is free to add them, of course, but the source books themselves have zero indications that there are any, and some indications, both direct and indirect, that there are none.
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I could have done a better job there with that point.

Pulling from the dictionary, what I was trying to say was that the sleep potion is very obviously a drug in the definition three sense " a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body" but that it will be very strongly associated with the most negative connotations of the definition two sense "something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation (see HABITUATION sense 2b), or a marked change in consciousness".

There are a few reasons for this. Firstly because from the context of mortal society there almost no drugs that give significant performance upgrades without side effects and that greatly biases how they're viewed. This is particularly relevant because no one other than Molly knows she can shake off a narcotics addiction like the common cold, and addicts of infamous liars.

Which plays into the next part of this; the trappings of it all. We could be making magical meth for all anyone without dots in alchemy knows when looking at a potion or brewing setup, and it certainly looks a lot like taking any number of other substances. It's superficial, but people are and always have been reflexively superficial.

Really though all of that is only a problem because of Molly and her immediate friends' history with the illegal and unhealthy stuff. We're not talking petty hand wringing over weed, we're talking heroin and various narcotics.

Molly has already lied to them about this, and many of the arguments used to smooth things over sound exactly like the lies of an addict.

Molly herself probably didn't do the really hard core stuff, but that doesn't change the association in people's heads.

Rosie at the very least I'd expect to be completely irrational about any regular use of anything with a strictly necessary medical purpose, because Molly programmed that into her head. Hell, she probably made it difficult for Rosie to look at a bottle of aspirin without flinching away like she just touched a hot stove.

I'm not saying it's some sort of great evil, even if it did come with side effects it'd still be very useful. It's just that I expect Molly's baggage to be a problem, and I value avoiding that headache over gaining the AP.

Which is also why I'm all for taking RtF and having Molly take up pacing while working or something. Maybe buy a big (refrigerated) van and put a lab in the back so that we can keep the charm active and do work that requires standing still by having it drive us around at night.

If we were playing TwilightCaste!Harry I'd be all for just taking the potion; but since a huge part of Molly's backstory is tied up in substance abuse and it's consequences I have difficulty believing we can get too close to things that resemble it without issues coming up.

Edit: corrected error
 
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BronzeTongue said:
I could have done a better job there with that point.

Pulling from the dictionary, what I was trying to say was that the sleep potion is very obviously a drug in the definition three sense " a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body" but that it will be very strongly associated with the most negative connotations of the definition two sense "something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation (see HABITUATION sense 2b), or a marked change in consciousness".

There are a few reasons for this. Firstly because from the context of mortal society there almost no drugs that give significant performance upgrades without side effects and that greatly biases how they're viewed. This is particularly relevant because know one other than Molly knows she can shake off a narcotics addiction like the common cold, and addicts of infamous liars.

Which plays into the next part of this; the trappings of it all. We could be making magical meth for all anyone without dots in alchemy knows when looking at a potion or brewing setup, and it certainly looks a lot like taking any number of other substances. It's superficial, but people are and always have been reflexively superficial.

Really though all of that is only a problem because of Molly and her immediate friends' history with the illegal and unhealthy stuff. We're not talking petty hand wringing over weed, we're talking heroin and various narcotics.

Molly has already lied to them about this, and many of the arguments used to smooth things over sound exactly like the lies of an addict.

Molly herself probably didn't do the really hard core stuff, but that doesn't change the association in people's heads.

Rosie at the very least I'd expect to be completely irrational about any regular use of anything with a strictly necessary medical purpose, because Molly programmed that into her head. Hell, she probably made it difficult for Rosie to look at a bottle of aspirin without flinching away like she just touched a hot stove.

I'm not saying it's some sort of great evil, even if it did come with side effects it'd still be very useful. It's just that I expect Molly's baggage to be a problem, and I value avoiding that headache over gaining the AP.

Which is also why I'm all for taking RtF and having Molly take up pacing while working or something. Maybe buy a big (refrigerated) van and put a lab in the back so that we can keep the charm active and do work that requires standing still by having it drive us around at night.

If we were playing TwilightCaste!Harry I'd be all for just taking the potion; but since a huge part of Molly's backstory is tied up in substance abuse and it's consequences I have difficulty believing we can get too close to things that resemble it without issues coming up.
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Thank you for your detailed response. The potion is a drug in the 3rd definition's sense, yes, but then so are chocolate, sugar, coffee, alcohol (some of which are grandfathered into "food", but, honestly, this is weaseling out in my opinion). What I disagree with is that it'll be strongly associated with 2b defintion, because, unlike, for example, meth, cocaine, or some energy drinks, it isn't describing as giving the user a "high". There's no mention of it altering one's consciousness in the sense of causing euphoria, manic states, etc. You simply don't want to sleep for longer, and wake up sooner after going to sleep. This is where I believe the association would break down if properly communicated by Molly and everyone involved. Please note, that at no point have I proposed just starting brewing it in secret and chugging it when our parents aren't looking. Obviously that's a bad idea. And there's a ton of perceptual difference between it, and doing stuff in a much more reasonable way, ie:
1) Introducing Charity and Michael to Alchemical solutions slowly. Healing potions (for MIchael in combat), and common cold symptom removers (for everyday use in autumn and winter) would be helpful there.
2) Pulling in authorities on magic and examples of safe and responsible use:
2.1) If any members of the Order of Cauldron use alchemy to make common household magical medicinces and have done so for a long time (perhaps a hangover cure passed down generations?), we could ask them to share their experience
2.2) Harry should obviously explain to the best of his knowledge how it works, what it does, what the costs are. If there are historic examples of people using this potion that he or Bob know and can be verified via the Chruch's knowledge, that should be brought up too.
3) Use the Crown (which at least Michael knows can in fact pull secrets even from big G), with a pre-agreed upon (between Charity, Michael, and Molly) question to verify and improve potion's safety as far as habituation forming goes
4) Agree to a trial period, perhaps even doing a proper trial with animals beforehand? Or at least on "take one dose, go without for several weeks, if nothing happens, take two doses, repeat" kind of treatment. Perhaps find a volunteer mortal who can be trusted and has no drug related history who'll consent (fully understanding the situation) for the drug trial.
5) Frame the potion as "super coffee", rather than "magic meth". Both the potion itself and the process of making it. Invoke those similarities. Avoid illegal drug associations.

I agree, that if framed in a certain way, no-sleep potion can be seen as a sort of drug by Molly, her friends and family. Obviously it can, as you and Uju have this association as the natural one. It's also possible that it won't be, because objectively it isn't, and there exist other viable associations. The issue is framing, ie player's choice. That is what I am disagreeing with - that the only interpretation possible is "this is drugs". It's not.

And as to Molly's history - her backstory is tied to recreational substance abuse. Not steroids, not long-term performance enhancers of the kind athletes take. And the super-coffee is much closer to those, than to cocaine, meth or anything like this. I mean, there's a reason I am not talking about magical super LSD that grants prophetic visions, or +2 to a given ability potion combat drug, or anything like that. Those would trigger drug associations. No doubt about that. Super coffee is much more mild, in my opinion, if properly managed.

As to the "there's no analogous anything in the mortal society" - I am fairly sure that mutations allowing for more efficient sleep were already discovered in 2006. And the Carpenter family very much doesn't live in mortal society.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jan 5, 2023 at 8:27 PM, finished with 126 posts and 21 votes.
  • [X]Plan Snitching
    -[X] Just the brief meeting with Wright
    -[X] The fact that they tried to bug your car, probably illegally
    -[X] Explain your suspicion that someone associated with the events of 22nd July might be manipulating the FBI
    -[X] What is the Library of Congress' relationship with
    --[X] ...the Catholic Church?
    --[X] ...the White Council?
    -[X] When he says his organization destroys knowledge what does he mean?
    -[X]STUNT: You interlace your fingers in your lap as you close your eyes. How to put this..."An observer" you start, in an attempt at detachment "of local...events, would notice that the timeline journalists have reported for the museum atrocity" and here you fail to keep the snarl out of your voice "seemed to have coincided with the time period when the FBI and CPD took Harry Dresden into custody on homicide charges. Given the lengthy preparations it must have taken to infiltrate an institution in the heart of Chicago and manage to murder that many victims without drawing attention, a suspicious mind might wonder what other preparations were taken." You open your eyes and fix him with your blue one. "Im not impugning any of the field agents here, Mr Hyde. They have their share of culpability, but I doubt they set policy." You say nothing about their bosses, and you see his eyes flicker at where you lay emphasis. "But it strikes me that if you wanted to commit a mass murder to magic purposes, you might find it useful to be able to use law enforcement to remove opposition. And its a fact that Agent Wright and his colleagues became active here in time to impede one of the people who might have noticed and prevented the murders of 22nd July. It raises questions about who arranged for agents of the National Security Division to come to Chicago with such...fortuitous timing." There is a pause of several seconds when neither of the other two men in the room says anything, then you smile a mirthless smile. "And when you consider all that, you begin to wonder what kind of result was hoped for when someone ordered a group of federal agents and a SWAT team to arrest a wizard in the middle of the Vampire War. At a time when, as you said, all too many respond readily with force."
    [X] The fact that they tried to bug your car, probably illegally
    [X] Explain Katrina and your suspicion that someone associated with her might be manipulating the FBI
    -[X] DO NOT tell him about murdering anyone. At all. In general do not tell him anything that can be used against you in the court of law.
    -[X] Explain how first the police was used against Dresden, and then the FBI.
    [X] What is the Library of Congress' relationship with
    -[X] ...the Catholic Church?
    -[X] ...the White Council?
    [X] When he says his organization destroys knowledge what does he mean?
    [X] Are they open to collaboration? You are already writing that book with Bob after all, offering them a copy would cost you nothing.
    -[X] DO NOT mention Bob
    [X] If they are a library, how do you get the library card for their occult section?
    [X] The fact that they tried to bug your car, probably illegally
    [X] What is the Library of Congress' relationship with
    -[X] ...the Catholic Church?
    [X] Write In - "Look, they're not very competent, and in their bumbling around they're going to offend someone far more scary than me eventually. Or worse, get suborned. I thought they were fishy after they tried to illegally bug my car, so I hacked into their systems and discovered that they deliberately arrested Dresden - a White Council Regional Warden Commander - when they knew he was innocent to try and blackmail him. Dresden was at the time pursuing a group of Kemmlerite Nazi Necromancers and their intervention meant the Nazi's almost managed to get away.'
    [X] Write in - "Well, to start with he arrested a man he knew for a fact was innocent in an attempt to pressure him into working for them, without any real protections stopping that man from twisting them into a knot save his own moral code. That was both deeply unethical and dangerously stupid."
    [X] The fact that they tried to bug your car, probably illegally
    [X] Explain Katrina and your suspicion that someone associated with her might be manipulating the FBI
    [X] What is the Library of Congress' relationship with
    -[X] ...the Catholic Church?
    -[X] ...the White Council?
    [X] When he says his organization destroys knowledge what does he mean?
    [X] Are they open to collaboration? You are already writing that book with Bob after all, offering them a copy would cost you nothing.
    [X] If they are a library, how do you get the library card for their occult section?
    [X] Write in - Oh, god, they are... um... really really unprepaired to deal with basically, well, anything to do with the supernatural while mistakenly beliving they have a handle on it due to the tiny drop of power they have. I know. I was in the same place too. I got impaled on a spike of ice in Arctis Tor for it and now I am... well, you noticed the cold. Please, if you have that sort of authority, intervene. They should not go through what I did.
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Arc 5 Post 2: Powers Subtle and Mundane
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    • Powers Subtle and Mundane ​

    28th of August 2006 A.D.

    You interlace your fingers in your lap as you close your eyes. How to put this..."An observer" you start, in an attempt at detachment "of local...events, would notice that the timeline journalists have reported for the museum atrocity" and here you fail to keep the snarl out of your voice "seemed to have coincided with the time period when the FBI and CPD took Harry Dresden into custody on homicide charges. Given the lengthy preparations it must have taken to infiltrate an institution in the heart of Chicago and manage to murder that many victims without drawing attention, a suspicious mind might wonder what other preparations were taken."

    Hyde looks at first surprised then outright concerned, though whether at the facts you are laying out or at how blunt you are being in doing so it is hard to say. Father Forthil certainly was not expecting you to come out swinging at the FBI this fast to judge by the crease between his brow, but he will just have to deal with it. These idiots took the best magical investigator in Chicago off the streets as a pressure campaign, even if you cannot admit that in so many words. 'Bugging the government with demons' is not what you would call a grey area in the law.

    "Miss Carpenter," the librarian cuts in. "I hope you realize you are making grave allegations. Yes altercations with the White Council are unfortunate, especially in the current climate, but you must to understand as far as the United States Government is concerned 'Wizard of the White Council' is not a recognized affiliation, their actions however well indentation trample on the sovereignty of the state and take the law in their own hands in a way that could be generously be called vigilantism. Taking Mr Dresden into custody was heavy handed and ultimately fruitless, but if that alone was a mark of conspiracy every enforcement arm of the US government is guilty of it." He sighs. "Men in suits make good villains, especially when something as shocking as the Red Room Killings happen."

    You pause at the media's name for the museum killings. How much does Hyde know about the real stakes? Then you catch the slight turn of the head towards Father Forthil, guess the question unspoken. How much does she know?

    He is treating you as a minor talent with White Council associations, not as someone all the way clued in

    "With respect Mr Hyde what's that got to do with the price of corn?" You borrow the hokey phrase with malice and aforethought. "Most of Central and South America is in the thrall of actual non-metaphorical vampires that drink people like blood slushies. Those things are at war with the White Council and what do you know one of their wizards gets framed for killing a cop right as someone or something comes to paint the walls with blood and fill the air with black magic."

    He considers you a long moment before nodding, more to himself than to you. "Wait a moment, I think my partner would like to have a chance to interview you as well."

    At your admittedly somewhat impatient confirmation he takes out a flip phone and sends a message. Judging by its brevity you suspect whoever is on the other line had been expecting it. That person you soon find is a woman whose grey hair and many lined face marks her as far more readily as a librarian than Hyde. Andrea Von Trier, offers a polite smile and a quick bony handshake with equal aplomb, but there is something unsettling, or perhaps better to say unsettled about her presence, a buzzing in the air not heard but felt like the wings of a thousand tiny flies beating against the veil. The world feels slippery around her, in contrast to her controlled, almost affected manner. It reminds you a little of Olivia only in this case you suspect you would not even have have realized she was the source of the disturbance if you did not have every shadow bending an ear to listen. Probably doesn't help with interviews though.


    "It seems like I owe you some thanks," the lady says as she sets her cane against the desk. At your look in askance she continues. "You just won me a bet with my partner here. I said the NSD would not be able to recognize an Investiture from a minor practitioner if it hit them over the head, he claimed there was no way someone with a major investiture was working with the Church and yet here we are. Given that we are the ones cleaning up after the would be disciples of Descartes it is only fair that we explain ourselves first and then you can tell us what you are comfortable with. Does that sound fair?"

    They were taking bets on what you were, people died in agony and they were taking bets? You nod tightly, feeling a lot less charitable to the Library of Congress and its agents than you had been a few moments ago.

    "People at the highest levels of the United States Government have known about the Council for almost as long as there has been a United States, the general feelings towards them have been mixed at best for reasons ranging from personal faith to concerns about subversives and socialists... yes really. The nineteen fifties were an interesting time in the Chinese sense. To reveal the full truth of magic, of the wars that are going on out there even as we speak to every Representative would invite exposure and all the disasters that would bring. Thus the more arcane matter of the Library of Congress report to the Intelligence and Counterterrorism Subcommittee, but even so report and advise it all we can do." She staples her fingers under her chin and looks to her partner. He seems almost to shrug. It's your show, the look seems to say.

    So she does: "Especially following the tragic events of five years ago people on the Subcommittee have been looking for solutions, for ways to better protect American citizens from what can be considered a type of terrorist activity by transnational criminal syndicates of unusual means. It was judged prudent to couch matters in more neutral language to prevent leaks about sorcery... Satanism and whatever other nonsense does the rounds on the The Rush Limbaugh Show, yes Father I see you I know Lucifer is real that does not make actual witch hunts anymore of a good idea than they ever were. Alas we were a bit too successful leading to an effort by the NSD and another by the CIA to deal with this 'scientifically', by which of course we mean discarding the evidence of their senses when it does not fit with their current understanding of reality. " Her tone shifts a hair at on the 'we' and Hyde shifts in place a little uneasily. Something tells you one or both of them were not part of the group that decided to veil the very nature of magic from their legislative overseers. By the end of the sentence it is scathing.

    "So... you couched it all in STEM jargon and got rid of 'magic' after 9/11?" you prompt. "But what about the representatives you informed in previous Congresses?"

    "The Library has been circumspect in what information we shared for the half century," Hyde explains. "But Congress was far more insistent on probing the details of our work following the start of the War on Terror." He stops, hand reaching to fiddle with his buttons . "Investigative overreach such as took place here in Chicago is one of the dangers we had warned about."

    "Ah..." you interject "You need it to be overreach and not enemy action, because one has the spooks' sponsors in the House pull them back and the other one has them pushed forward even more to counter the danger."

    "Quite," Andrea smiles in seemingly genuine if distant approval. "Now is I might give you some advice Miss Carpenter, it is easier and cheaper by far guess how an institution might act and use that than use that than to gain control of it. It is entirely possible, likely in fact that the ones responsible for the Red Room Killings used Agent Wright and his fellows. That does not require them or their superiors to be malicious, a highhanded approach to half-understood matters will do."

    "Maybe someone should make sure they do get the full picture then," you needle.

    "Changing a horse midstream is an excellent way to drown even if the mount you are on may not be the best," she counters.

    So they, or their superiors at least are committed to seeing this scientific understanding of magic continue so they have cover before Congress. "And what if the White Council objects?"

    "Oh they have, but they also understand the risk of exposure inherent in revealing the full scale of the supernatural world unprepared minds. Our connections are robust and our influence sufficient to ensure that Mr Dresden was not held up anymore than than a few days." Likely seeing your expression darken Andrea continues. "The proof you provided of his innocence was of course instrumental, but we also added or voice to those demanding his release. The Church's involvement was of course helpful."

    "What is your relationship with the Church?" Not that you are entirely satisfied with their answers so far, but neither of them seem to be lying at least.

    "Friendly and a good deal more open than with the White Council. Lines of communication also exist, counsel is sought and heeded " he looks to Father Forthil and you are again reminded of his winder affiliations. "Now if I migth ask a question in return whose Investiture do you hold Miss Carpenter?"

    What do you reply?

    [] Refuse to give details

    [] Tell them the same story you did the Order of the Cauldron

    [] Give a more detailed account
    -[] Write in

    [] Write in

    OOC: These people had the worst luck for social rolls I have ever seen
     
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    • It's a real shame that we don't have our Kingdom charm yet, so we can't pull them into our throne room atop a skyscraper that overlooks the vastness of her Hell and it's assembled billions strong cyber-devil legions and say 'My Own.' Would need to assume Shintai form for the proper effect though.

    That would be proper Infernal-ing.
     
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    I want to be cheeky and say "my own" while flaring the anima.

    More seriously, yeah, these guys had to have rolled badly on social. What they are saying is reasonable, but my god, is it badly framed. Also, the true exalted solution would be to invent Motonic Science and give them a primer. This way they can keep their scientific trappings, only it'll actually be science and it'll actually be working. And yes, I fully realize that it's politics, and they are using layman's understanding of what science is... It's still infuriating, because "discarding the evidence of their senses when it does not fit with their current understanding of reality." is the exact opposite of how science works, and they had to find some real quacks to work in their R&D. And it's costing people their lives. Also, Dresdenverse magic shouldn't be physics (well, not completely). It should be... psychology, probably. Sociology, politics, something in that area.

    For now, I'll go with

    [X] Tell them the same story you did the Order of the Cauldron

    This information they can likely trade from minor winter fae anyway. Which actually speaks badly on their background checks. Well, they thought we were a minor talent.

    Also, goddamn, they are half way to going completely rogue. "The Library has been circumspect in what information we shared for the half century," is... Well, it's not treason by the definition of USA legal code, I think, not directly at least, but the Library of Congress is not a USA organization at this point. They are their own quasi-independent, quasi-parasitic supernatural group pursuing their own goals, at least some of which (the survival of their own organization) seem to overwrite their initial mission statement. Essentially, they seem to be a flaming mess.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Yes, but not just that, it's what the RPG calls sponsored magic.
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    Oh, in that case:

    [X] My own
    -[X] Tell them the same story you did the Order of the Cauldron
    -[X] STUNT: "Mine is not a sponsored power, to be taken away at someone's whim. Upon my brow sits the ancient crown, taken in combat from the treasuries of Winter, yet, by right, meant for mortal men and holding no allegiance to the fae. Mine favor and wrath are for me alone to disperse, and none can compel my service without my agreement"

    Something like this? I don't think we want them thinking we owe stuff to Winter. And all of this they can get from other sources, once they do a proper background check.
     
    I don't think US government would tolerate these independent, armed organizations, Including White Council. They are infringing on the monopoly of violence the government has. That would be intolerable.
    Earth-Destroyer said:
    Anything that can deal exalted Holy type damage would fuck over an infernal.
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    at most that would be "deal aggro to all creatures of darkness", which still soakable aggravated damage.
    DragonParadox said:
    scientific understanding of magic
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    no, no. That would be "Scientism", not science.
     
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