Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

There is no way Mab is giving us access to her charmset unless we take a subordinate position to her. Because if we used her charms they would all carry her signature which means she would basically be taking responsibility for anything that we did with them.
Well, it probably would be less her charmset, and more charmset inspired by her. We definitively would start with Exalt-appropriate charms instead of babystuff that would be appropriate for a E1-equivalent Fae baby.

Anyway, yeah, swinging around the power of ancient winter might be problematic. We need to ask grandmother Winter, instead. :V
 
I have to wonder - if we crush Mab socially (like 10+ successes more than she gets), is there a chance we unlock Winter's charms? Or fae charms in general. Magically enforced oaths would be a good charm.
Doubt it.
The literal Surrender Oaths in Creation did not give the Exalted Host access to Yozi charms.
I see no reason social success would give us access to Winter charms/powers.

Hell, it may not even be in Mab's power to give.
Winter Law has its own rules, and Mab, while she has significant breadth of action, does not act with impunity.
She's not even the most powerful entity in Winter; that's Gran Gran.

...I didn't notice before, but this is unexpectedly better than E2 Charm of the same name; E2 version specifically triggered only of vigorous physical activity. ExWoD's version apparently triggers of any activity that about actually doing stuff. It triggers off driving, for example.
Yup.
I've been looking at some of the charms again, and noting synergies.
Consider the combo of Seeing Is Blindness and either Sandstrike Blast or Mind-Hand Manipulation.

Depends on the context. Rando 10 sux on a rando social roll, def. not. Spend WP to tank social failure mechanic exists. Mab/Fae are definitively a target for potential charmset, tho, and this is definitively a potential point of negotiations if we actually achieve relatively friendly status.
See my reply to Yog.

Winter is its own thing, with its own agenda, which Mab only has limited influence over. Note Dresden losing access to the Winter Knight Mantle in Cold Days when he tries to defy Winter Law. Or Molly having the Winter Lady Mantle almost kill Ramirez when they came close to having sex.

The closest we've seen of something like that was when Mab gave Maggie a ring duplicating Frozen Elsa's powers for half a day as a Christmas gift. Or when Lily gave Dresden Summer's fire during Proven Guilty.
Both times, it was temporary, and in pursuit of the respective Court's goals and obligations.
 
I have to wonder - if we crush Mab socially (like 10+ successes more than she gets), is there a chance we unlock Winter's charms? Or fae charms in general. Magically enforced oaths would be a good charm.
I'm more concerned about the consequences of crushing Mab in social combat. Seems like a good way to convince her that we are too dangerous to be allowed to live if we demonstrate the ability to outright social-fu her.
 
I'm more concerned about the consequences of crushing Mab in social combat.
Early on, there was a potential route that gave us 5 dot enemy (Winter Court). DP talked a little about what that would've been like.

Worst case scenarios like that - context matters - are definitively troublesome to the extreme, but not really game over.
 
I presumed that it wasn't literal "sux gives you powers" but "sux means Mab is willing to work out some sort of a deal; see the details" before FF mentioned that there are obstacles to such shenanigans.
Yeah, this.
I'm more concerned about the consequences of crushing Mab in social combat. Seems like a good way to convince her that we are too dangerous to be allowed to live if we demonstrate the ability to outright social-fu her.
In context, crushing Mab in social combat should equal Mab coming out negotiations with us believing us to be the best thing to happen since sliced bread invention of gunpowder. If we, for example, know of Nemesis by then and demonstrate that we can both identify all nemesis-possessed everywhere, and exercise it from people pretty much at will (well, ritualistically, but with no special reagents needed), and that we are interested in protection of reality, I am fairly sure Mab would be well disposed to us. As in "lend us Winter's support to take over some of the 1000 hells" well disposed.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 25, 2022 at 7:28 AM, finished with 68 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] What can she tell us about the local community? People and places. We are acquainted Harry and a few others "movers and shakers", but not with those who just live their lives - "people on the street".
    -[X] Try to put her further at ease by letting her ask you what questions she almost certainly has (within reason, of course). And by actually ordering the food.
    -[X] Use Empathy and Etiquette excellencies
    -[X] Stunt: "Well, first of all, what would you like to order? My treat." you ask, as you try to project the image - not one of a Dreaded Empress To Be, but one of Molly Carpenter - the teenage church going girl, who is still very much a part of her community. "I wanted to ask about the local community. If I was your neighbor's daughter, newly come into her gifts, who would you introduce me to? What places would you recommend me to visit? Dad and Harry can explain geopolitics to me, but what's the local scene like? Oh, and if you want to ask me anything in turn, please feel free. I won't promise to answer everything, but maybe I'll be able to soothe some of your worries".
    [X] What can she tell you about others like herself, the minor talents of Chicago
    -[X] Apply social excellencies as needed
    -[X] Stunt: Looking her just below the eye in the manner of practitioners avoiding a soul gaze, Molly allows a small measure of apologetic uncertainty to enter her tone. "I'm sorry to scare you like this, I'm sure a meeting with as strange a stranger as I can be wasn't what you had in mind today. "
    —[X] With increasing confidence, leans in and continues. "I'm sort of an odd position at the moment, with a lot of knowledge about some things and much less about others. I've gotten different bits from different people, but not a lot from people who live the community day to day. I was hoping you could help with that"
    [X] What can she tell you about others like herself, the minor talents of Chicago
    -[x] Stunt: Reassuring smile "Don't worry I might be garbbed in hellish authority such that all lesser wicked things are like writhing worms or mere grains of sand cast before me which is scary, but by the same token you aren't a wicked thing so my authority doesn't apply to you. Doesn't that make you feel better?"
 
I'm kind of doubtful that we'll actually crush Mab that badly. We'll be rolling superhuman dice pools, but that's basically the minimum you need to get in the door. She does to things like negotiate with ancient vampires, demon lords, and Dragons/dragons. Then there's all the high Sidhe constantly testing her and each other with superhuman pools of their own.
The details we saw during our first encounter are unlikely to represent her abilities when making a serious and prepared effort because she wouldn't make it through her average work week alive if they did.
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 25, 2022 at 7:28 AM, finished with 68 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] What can she tell us about the local community? People and places. We are acquainted Harry and a few others "movers and shakers", but not with those who just live their lives - "people on the street".
    -[X] Try to put her further at ease by letting her ask you what questions she almost certainly has (within reason, of course). And by actually ordering the food.
    -[X] Use Empathy and Etiquette excellencies
    -[X] Stunt: "Well, first of all, what would you like to order? My treat." you ask, as you try to project the image - not one of a Dreaded Empress To Be, but one of Molly Carpenter - the teenage church going girl, who is still very much a part of her community. "I wanted to ask about the local community. If I was your neighbor's daughter, newly come into her gifts, who would you introduce me to? What places would you recommend me to visit? Dad and Harry can explain geopolitics to me, but what's the local scene like? Oh, and if you want to ask me anything in turn, please feel free. I won't promise to answer everything, but maybe I'll be able to soothe some of your worries".
    [X] What can she tell you about others like herself, the minor talents of Chicago
    -[X] Apply social excellencies as needed
    -[X] Stunt: Looking her just below the eye in the manner of practitioners avoiding a soul gaze, Molly allows a small measure of apologetic uncertainty to enter her tone. "I'm sorry to scare you like this, I'm sure a meeting with as strange a stranger as I can be wasn't what you had in mind today. "
    —[X] With increasing confidence, leans in and continues. "I'm sort of an odd position at the moment, with a lot of knowledge about some things and much less about others. I've gotten different bits from different people, but not a lot from people who live the community day to day. I was hoping you could help with that"
    [X] What can she tell you about others like herself, the minor talents of Chicago
    -[x] Stunt: Reassuring smile "Don't worry I might be garbbed in hellish authority such that all lesser wicked things are like writhing worms or mere grains of sand cast before me which is scary, but by the same token you aren't a wicked thing so my authority doesn't apply to you. Doesn't that make you feel better?"
Are you counting the default votes without the stunt and the ones including the stunt I wrote together or separately for this?
Solars had their own charms.
Infernals gain their charms from others.
All exalts get their charms (or at least the inspiration for them) from someone else in the same way. Solars just have the unconquered sun as a patron instead of the Yozi.
 
Exalts, charms of different splats, E2
Generally, Exalts getting non-native charms half-heartedly discouraged in E2. Like, you weren't supposed to do that, but every single celestial splat had an official White Wolf/Onyx Path-approved way to say "No u, limits are for other people" and get access to something they weren't really meant to get access to.

Typically, thanks to a Glories of the Most Hight late E2 charms.

Solars had ability to purchase Abyssal and Infernal charms if they had a special charm (because of course), Abyssals had Solar Mirror charms, Infernals had potential to unlock a bunch of additional charmset by talking with a bunch of Yozi that didn't opt in into Reclamation initially, Lunars had abilities to steal Raksha charms/stuff and buy divine charms... Etcetera. Broadly, if Solaroid really wanted, they could break stuff. If their storyteller approved, ofc.

Waaaay back, Twilight anima also allowed to get non-native charms really easily, but that was nerfed into the ground because it made Twilight into absolute gods on the earth.

Aside from ways that didn't fuck an Exalt over, there is always going Akuma, but it is generally always bad idea to go Akuma.
Dark pacts/Infernal Investiture mechanics allow purchasing non-native stuff, but if you aren't cheesing it with Soul-Rending Practice, then it is going to fuck you over. There is also some talk about Werewolf gifts being learnable by in-universe logic, here and there, much like Paths, but it isn't super-common topic of discussion.
DP once mentioned possible access to non-splat charms if we could talk relevant Powers into "unlocking" their charmsets for us. Rando comment in a early game of the quest about mechanics that are still definitively up in the air isn't very binding, tho. This isn't set in stone or anything.
I'm kind of doubtful that we'll actually crush Mab that badly.
We didn't actually invest into anything that would enable that sort of ridiculous sux, so there is no need to doubt; there is absolutely no chance whatsoever for that sort of stuff to happen.
 
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We didn't actually invest into anything that would enable that sort of ridiculous sux, so there is no need to doubt; there is absolutely no chance whatsoever for that sort of stuff to happen.
Let's see. We can conceivably get 5+5 dots as a base. Multiply those by 2, we get 2 dice. Add 2 dots to etiquette with a 2 dot enhance ability potion, 2 dice from stunt and 2rom WHWH. That's 26 dice. Lower the difficulty by 4 (BSM + CCC, and yes, we definitely should abuse CCC), and assume that the starting difficulty is 9, because that's Mab presumably at her best with prep we are dealing with. That's difficulty 5. That's reliable 15 successes, likely more. That's what we are almost guaranteed to have.

Now, add a -1 Fortune path dice adder (I am fairly sure that Dresden can be commissioned for help here; if not him than someone else - we should have money by then). Add prep stuff, like exquisite makeup, clothes and such, which probably would either add dice, or effective dots to appearance. Add the self-harm for successes charm (if it's not regularly used, it shouldn't cause problems). All in all, we should be getting 20+ successes when rolling etiquette or empathy rolls. That should help with good first impression. From there, it gets trickier, of course, since we'd probably need Law and Politics and their excellencies to actually negotiate with Mab. And there's no way we are getting those to 5.
 
Let's see. We can conceivably get 5+5 dots as a base. Multiply those by 2, we get 2 dice. Add 2 dots to etiquette with a 2 dot enhance ability potion, 2 dice from stunt and 2rom WHWH. That's 26 dice. Lower the difficulty by 4 (BSM + CCC, and yes, we definitely should abuse CCC), and assume that the starting difficulty is 9, because that's Mab presumably at her best with prep we are dealing with. That's difficulty 5. That's reliable 15 successes, likely more. That's what we are almost guaranteed to have.

Now, add a -1 Fortune path dice adder (I am fairly sure that Dresden can be commissioned for help here; if not him than someone else - we should have money by then). Add prep stuff, like exquisite makeup, clothes and such, which probably would either add dice, or effective dots to appearance. Add the self-harm for successes charm (if it's not regularly used, it shouldn't cause problems). All in all, we should be getting 20+ successes when rolling etiquette or empathy rolls. That should help with good first impression. From there, it gets trickier, of course, since we'd probably need Law and Politics and their excellencies to actually negotiate with Mab. And there's no way we are getting those to 5.
Most of your CCC schemes are kind of crazy to be honest. The ruling on using it was that it had to be a real impediment to us to trigger the charm, which means the cheat must always be balanced against a risk.

A controlled environment is one thing, but screwing around with Mab is emphatically not that.
 
Most of your CCC schemes are kind of crazy to be honest. The ruling on using it was that it had to be a real impediment to us to trigger the charm, which means the cheat must always be balanced against a risk.

A controlled environment is one thing, but screwing around with Mab is emphatically not that.
I am yet to see the downside to the ankle bracelet scheme. No, seriously. We make an ankle bracelet with a shock function strong enough to impede our movement (not that hard, if placed against muscle, it would cause the leg to spasm). We either link it to Clippy, or equip it with its own GPS and cyberdevil. We make the latch strong enough that we'll have to try when breaking it, but will definitely be able to do so. We make the locking mechanism controllable by the cyberdevil and easily replaceable. Then, before we do any negotiations with Mab, we command it not to let us leave, unless we finish the negotiations.

What would be the downsides? I am guessing the ankle bracelet could be noticeable, but it could be built into a boot, or made slim enough to hide under trousers / skirt. That's pretty much all I can think of. CCC enhances us, it doesn't affect the others, so Mab shouldn't notice it / be angered by it, if she isn't going to object to us using excellencies. And if she does, well, we are screwed.
 
I finally found what I hate about the CCC munchkining:

It stops CCC being about escape.

We don't even try to escape in the case Yog outlined above.

And that's why it shouldn't work at all.
 
I finally found what I hate about the CCC munchkining:

It stops CCC being about escape.

We don't even try to escape in the case Yog outlined above.

And that's why it shouldn't work at all.
Not all escape needs to be "break the walls and the doors". For example, working towards early release by befriending the jail's administration should fall under CCC. If the condition of being let out of our room is "do your homework", then CCC should be helping us with doing our homework. If the condition is "successfully negotiate with Mab", then yes, CCC should help us in negotiating with Mab.
 
I am yet to see the downside to the ankle bracelet scheme. No, seriously. We make an ankle bracelet with a shock function strong enough to impede our movement (not that hard, if placed against muscle, it would cause the leg to spasm). We either link it to Clippy, or equip it with its own GPS and cyberdevil. We make the latch strong enough that we'll have to try when breaking it, but will definitely be able to do so. We make the locking mechanism controllable by the cyberdevil and easily replaceable. Then, before we do any negotiations with Mab, we command it not to let us leave, unless we finish the negotiations.

What would be the downsides? I am guessing the ankle bracelet could be noticeable, but it could be built into a boot, or made slim enough to hide under trousers / skirt. That's pretty much all I can think of. CCC enhances us, it doesn't affect the others, so Mab shouldn't notice it / be angered by it, if she isn't going to object to us using excellencies. And if she does, well, we are screwed.
I don't think that will work; if we want to don the gimp suit of imperishable glory it has to actually trouble us to get out of it. Either it's a real problem to deal with in a delicate situation, or we wouldn't get any bonus from it.*

Binding ourselves in a way that does qualify means that if something goes wrong we're at a disadvantage, and just the implication of that would encourage a number of different entities to be more aggressive - including most things from winter.

*Assuming I'm recalling the details correctly anyway.
 
Not all escape needs to be "break the walls and the doors". For example, working towards early release by befriending the jail's administration should fall under CCC. If the condition of being let out of our room is "do your homework", then CCC should be helping us with doing our homework. If the condition is "successfully negotiate with Mab", then yes, CCC should help us in negotiating with Mab.
And yet breaking the deliberately flimsy ankle bracelet would be much easier.
As such CCC should point towards it instead of negotiating since it makes finding weakpoints easier too.
 
The eternal dilemma of Infernals.

Either you are jumping through thirty burning hoops to get your charms to trigger, or Solar trivially outperforms you in your own special gimmick.

Thankfully, there are no Solars in this.
 
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I don't think that will work; if we want to don the gimp suit of imperishable glory it has to actually trouble us to get out of it. Either it's a real problem to deal with in a delicate situation, or we wouldn't get any bonus from it.*

Binding ourselves in a way that does qualify means that if something goes wrong we're at a disadvantage, and just the implication of that would encourage a number of different entities to be more aggressive - including most things from winter.

*Assuming I'm recalling the details correctly anyway.
And yet breaking the deliberately flimsy ankle bracelet would be much easier.
As such CCC should point towards it instead of negotiating since it makes finding weakpoints easier too.
I think I am explaining badly. The lock is not flimsy. It would take about as much effort to break it, as breaking a door - that's the criterion @DragonParadox established for CCC to trigger. Doable with our strength and sword, but taking effort, and probably at least a turn of time. The binding is "if we try to leave the room, our armored ankle bracelet will shock our leg, causing it to spasm and preventing us from moving".

CCC should trigger in this situation. Same as with having a door locked with an electronic lock in our workshop, which was the initial example of CCC utility, or having someone (the monk teaching us) making an oath not to let us leave, unless we master his lesson, which is an IC example of Molly considering CCC abuse (discarded because of social niceties, not because it wouldn't work). CCC isn't limited to helping us achieve the easiest escape possible (such as breaking the window, or turning off electricity to stop the lock from working, or using flight to escape the monk). As long as we are working towards escaping, it should work.
 
As such CCC should point towards it instead of negotiating since it makes finding weakpoints easier too.
CCC doesn't point at things. It isn't Ariadne's thread. It doesn't decide your next course of actions. It makes any and all actions made in pursuit of escaping easier.

Aptly named Gimp Suit of Imperishable Glory might be a bad idea because holy shit that's just a disaster waiting to happen, but locked room crafting and all that sort of stuff is just more involved way of "btw, just pouring out a bottle of water on your head works, too" - this is how Infernals work.

We on SV/SB trained ourselves to well to avoid cheese-looking schemes, but as far as I can see, this is how things were intended to be run.
 
Since it's Christmas, I wanted to talk to you guys (perhaps prematurely) about what Molly should gift her family for Christmas. Obviously, it should be something she either made herself, or at least something beyond fat bundles of cash.

For Michael a set of beyond-legendary quality woodworking tools, perhaps a refurbishing of the workshop would be a fine gift, I think. It's not about him being Knight of the Cross, which is important.

Charity I am honestly not sure about... Power armor, if we can swing it by that time? I think for her the ability to either fight alongside Michael or help protect Michael and our family would be the best gift. With her traumas security, and especially security against magic is important. An anti-magic ward of some kind? Honestly not sure. Or maybe a power hammer. And then we drag her to a convention to cosplay an Adepta Sororitas canoness.

Daniel, with his Occult 2 interest and going steady with Lydia... Either a tuned car to take Lydia on dates with, some ancient and useful tome (and we should check if he has some minor talent), or a ticket to some vacation spot for him and Lydia (the last one is very provocative).

Matthew... training equipment? A training lightsabre if we can make one safe enough to use?

Not sure about Hope.
 
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