Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1)Thomas can cross over from the NeverNever at the Raith Deeps because he was almost killed there.
All Raiths can use strip clubs and the like because sex/lust; Thomas did this with Michael as a passenger.
There is as far as Im aware no requirement that it be repeated for any extra period of time on one spot. Once the threshold is met, its been met.


2)You want to let them go ahead, wait for the two factions to fight it out, then take our time to enter the base in their wake.
Thats basically begging for someone to get out with the loot.

Murphy's law is still a thing in this setting, and we would be attempting to walk through an unfamiliar base with unfamiliar hazards while watching out for any lurking opposition in the shadows.
You are badly mistaken if you think its something that can be done at speed.

In a chase, the runner always has the advantage over the pursuer, because the pursuer has to watch for traps, fakeouts and ambushes from the runner. The runner doesnt.
Same principle.


3)And yes, its potentially perilous to blind jump into the NeverNever. For humans. Much less so for vamps.
Red Court vampires survive and regenerate gunshots to the head as long as they retain blood in the belly. Thats why they never wear armor in canon. There's a reason Im rather pleased that Transcendent Anathema is a thing and allows us to deal Agg.


4)It is precisely the reason we should pay attention to their example.

We are barely a month and half as an Infernal; paying attention to how things are done and why is literally why we have Michael as a Mentor 5. This is neither the time nor the place for moral crusading. The immediate satisfaction of arranging the death of a Rampire task force pales in comparison to increasing the risk of letting magic plutonium get away into hostile hands.

Especially given how quickly Rampires can replace mooks.


5)Not to mention that Molly has read Lord of the Rings.
Critically, the lesson of Gollum: Never be too quick to kill, even where its deserved. There's a reason why routinely killing your enemies in the presence of alternative practical solutions is explicitly right there in the ExWoD sourcebook as devaluing the value of your soul.


6) We are an Infernal Exalt and heir to a Hell. Our father wields Amoracchius, our brother dates the daughter of a death god, our crush is a wizard of the White Council and half brother of a Whampire, and we have a job offer from someone who is both a magic contractor for a Mafia boss and liegesworn to Odin, who is also Santa Claus,.

Simplicity was never an option.
I acknowledge that their sorcerer trying a blind jump is a risk. But a small one, and one that can be reduced by targeting them first. It's good tactical sense anyway because they are probably the leader.
There are things a whole lot worse then some bullets in the Nevernever. Especially considering how negative of a place they will be jumping from.

But take our time? No. We aren't a scared scavenger trailing behind, hoping to pick up the scraps. We are the hammer, here to trap them against the anvil and crush them between. They are going to be engaging an enemy in one direction. They are going to be taking losses and dealing with that unfamiliar base with unfamiliar hazards while watching out for any lurking opposition. We are going to be the ones who come in from behind and smash them right when they think they are winning.

And if they run (if they even can run with us between them and the exit) then we hunt them down.

There is a time and place for mercy. This is hardly moral crusading. It is merely an elegant method to accomplish multiple goals. Arranging the death of a red court strike team is both helpful for the big picture (these are hardly mooks), and is the most efficient way to accomplish our goal (get the gossamer).

It doesnt require a mage.
ANY vampire can cross over into the NeverNever at a place of personal or species significance.
They only need a mage if they're opening a gate at a random spot.

For example, Thomas took Michael out of the NeverNever at a strip club during the events of Grave Peril, a place of species significance. He later opened a gate to guide Marcone and a full group of Einherjar from Chicago to the Raith Deeps in White Night, a place of personal significance. And while he can do some minor cantrips, he certainly isnt a mage.

If you want to kill every Rampire capable of opening a gate at a spot where bloodshed took place, you need to kill all of them.
Thats how it works.
Alright, I admit I have only read half the books, but this doesn't really line up with what I remember? Can random Red Court vampires really open ways like that? Just, anytime they kill a bunch of people? Especially with that level of ease?
Because doing it underwater and in the middle of combat seems like it would be something that would be challenging for even the average wizard.

I would like to note: All of this seems to be assuming that the Red Court will even win here. Yes they seem to think so, but they aren't omniscient, and chance has it's role to play.

Furthermore all of your plan hinges on us being able to browbeat all the vampires into following us. And yes we have amazing exalted tier social rolls. But it's not mind control. At best we can have them more terrified of us then anything else, but even then that is a very fragile sort of control.

Simply speaking, every extra complication in a plan is a point where it can fail. Teaming up with the vampires introduces a lot of extra complications.
 
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Easily a hundred people or more down there, with anywhere from a third to half being enslaved support staff.
We cant afford to let the Rampires run amok.
Can't be based on simple logistics of "what do they eat" and "where do they poop". Housing a hundred people would lead to an active supply trail. It would also mean that this secret bolthole is an order of magnitude larger installation than their primary facility.
3)Bonus XP for successfully dominating a group of Reds. Bonus XP potential for freeing human slaves.
Bonus XP potential for intelligence on the Fomor society if we recover live victims and any documents.
Bonus XP potential if we recover any gossamer before the Reds do. Bonus XP potential if the Reds attempt a double cross and we get to kill them all.
I'd add "the chance of flipping this particular group of rampires into our service". By word of QM, we could have had the one vampire we interacted with as a servant. While I doubt we can do the same with all 18 of them present at once, we could probably swing them to being our spies / informants. And, if and when we get our kingdom, we could potentially move them there, where they could feed and potentially breed ethically. Rampires aren't all tainted by outsiders, so they shouldn't be genocided on principle, if I understand my cosmology right.

And they are a nice potential asset. Even if they aren't nice people at all.
 
I acknowledge that their sorcerer trying a blind jump is a risk. But a small one, and one that can be reduced by targeting them first. It's good tactical sense anyway because they are probably the leader.
There are things a whole lot worse then some bullets in the Nevernever. Especially considering how negative of a place they will be jumping from.

But take our time? No. We aren't a scared scavenger trailing behind, hoping to pick up the scraps. We are the hammer, here to trap them against the anvil and crush them between. They are going to be engaging an enemy in one direction. They are going to be taking losses and dealing with that unfamiliar base with unfamiliar hazards while watching out for any lurking opposition. We are going to be the ones who come in from behind and smash them right when they think they are winning.

And if they run (if they even can run with us between them and the exit) then we hunt them down.

There is a time and place for mercy. This is hardly moral crusading. It is merely an elegant method to accomplish multiple goals. Arranging the death of a red court strike team is both helpful for the big picture (these are hardly mooks), and is the most efficient way to accomplish our goal (get the gossamer).
1)Not an issue. Sorcerers are not needed to cross into the NeverNever if you're a Rampire.

2)No. You do not plan on racing through an enemy base. Just the very fact that you dont know the layout would slow you down, let alone the potential for actual ambushes, boobytraps and roaming defensive constructs.
We are fucking tanky, but we have certain glaring weaknesses in our combat suite.

3)I dont agree. I want the bonus XP, but Im under no illusions about how fast Rampires can afford to replace foot soldiers.
And prioritizing the death of a Rampire C.A.T over the potential rescue of civilians or the rescue of what gossamer stockpiles are here is in my opinion, a terrible idea

You only maneuver two enemies into a fight when you can live with the worstcase options, because Murphy has a say.
Alright, I admit I have only read half the books, but this doesn't really line up with what I remember? Can random Red Court vampires really open ways like that? Just, anytime they kill a bunch of people? Especially with that level of ease?
Because doing it underwater and in the middle of combat seems like it would be something that would be challenging for even the average wizard.

I would like to note: All of this seems to be assuming that the Red Court will even win here. Yes they seem to think so, but they aren't omniscient, and chance has it's role to play.

Furthermore all of your plan hinges on us being able to browbeat all the vampires into following us. And yes we have amazing exalted tier social rolls. But it's not mind control. At best we can have them more terrified of us then anything else, but even then that is a very fragile sort of control.

Simply speaking, every extra complication in a plan is a point where it can fail. Teaming up with the vampires introduces a lot of extra complications.
1)Its not shown much onscreen because of the War. But as far as we are shown, yes.
I'll explain.

Red Court vampires are vulnerable to sunlight, and they dont have very many sorcerers; see Dresden's surprise at Bianca being able to use magic. Even six hundred year old warlords like Paolo Ortega had no magic.
Outside of the big fight in Changes, we only ever see two Red spell-users: Bianca St Claire and Arianna Ortega.

Furthermore, only really old Rampires have fleshmasks that can withstand daylight.
So if they need to travel anywhere at speed, they cant just take a plane; its via the NeverNever.
Which means opening Way gates has to be a basic capability.

We do see in Grave Peril that Bianca St Claire's mansion is explicitly a Way entrypoint.
Dresden uses it. And gets ambushed when trying to sneak onto the estate because the Reds know its a Way gate, have used it recently, and are watching it. (Back then Dresden knew fuckall about vampires)


2) There's other examples with the Reds.
Paolo Ortega was present during the final confrontation between Dresden and Bianca in Grave Peril, and escapes from Chicago after Dresden kills off Bianca's entire court in the final battle.

He's once again in Chicago for the second and final time in Death Masks to duel Dresden, and flees to Casaverde to survive the Archive after he cheats at the duel; he was not a sorcerer, and while married to one, he had no sorcerer on staff when he came to Chicago. Yet he brought a hit team with him. By elimination, he could open a Way.

Secondly.
The Eebs show up in Chicago with a hit squad of Red Court vamps, a devourer/Ick demon the size of a bull and no sorcerer on their team in Changes, meaning they travelled the Ways as well. No sorcerer means they had to be able to open the Ways just fine.


3)If the Reds dont win, the Fomor do. And the Fomor are amphibious.
We arent(yet), nor do we have any ranged attack options or tracking spells(yet). They slip into the water and they are gone.
So yes, Im assuming the Reds win. Else we might as well go home right now.


4)Yes, I am confident we can intimidate them.
Because we literally did it to a vampire in this story arc back in Update 10, so Im confident we can do it to the rest of them.
Its a proven ability which should work just fine against opposition of this level. Backed up by a Sword? Yees.

The only person who I think might be able to resist is the boss, Don whatever.
And if he does and challenges us, we kill him.
Pour encourageur les autres.
 
Can't be based on simple logistics of "what do they eat" and "where do they poop". Housing a hundred people would lead t
Americans apparently average around 2.5 kilos of food a day.
Assuming they have a hundred people(not counting magic constructs or whatnot), that would be 250 kilos a day.
In a 30 day month that comes around to 7.5 tons a month. 90 tons a year.


Roughly 2.5 full eighteen wheelers worth of cargo.
No big deal.
Freshwater from the lake, and they literally have entropic magic for both water purification and waste disposal if necessary.
I'd add "the chance of flipping this particular group of rampires into our service". By word of QM, we could have had the one vampire we interacted with as a servant. While I doubt we can do the same with all 18 of them present at once, we could probably swing them to being our spies / informants. And, if and when we get our kingdom, we could potentially move them there, where they could feed and potentially breed ethically. Rampires aren't all tainted by outsiders, so they shouldn't be genocided on principle, if I understand my cosmology right.
Eh.
I'd be willing to try if we had one of the fomor charms, or our own kingdom. Or some more social charms.
Or if we had the maggot charm for feeding people.

Lets see how many survive this first.
 
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The idea that the Cultists instantly get away after they've won is very unlikely.
They would have already fled if they wanted/could do it.

As for the Reds, if they tried to enter the Nevernever they would have to enter Formor-aligned territory after killing their minions, which is a terrible idea.

And the XP-argument is completly pointless, we will grow as we go along and there's no sense in trying to cram as many XP per Arc as possible. That only means that the difficulty gets adjusted sooner to account for the stronger Molly.

Let's keep it simple, let our enemies kill each other and then finish the rest.
 
1)Not an issue. Sorcerers are not needed to cross into the NeverNever if you're a Rampire.

2)No. You do not plan on racing through an enemy base. Just the very fact that you dont know the layout would slow you down, let alone the potential for actual ambushes, boobytraps and roaming defensive constructs.
We are fucking tanky, but we have certain glaring weaknesses in our combat suite.

3)I dont agree. I want the bonus XP, but Im under no illusions about how fast Rampires can afford to replace foot soldiers.
And prioritizing the death of a Rampire C.A.T over the potential rescue of civilians or the rescue of what gossamer stockpiles are here is in my opinion, a terrible idea

You only maneuver two enemies into a fight when you can live with the worstcase options, because Murphy has a say.

1)Its not shown much onscreen because of the War. But as far as we are shown, yes.
I'll explain.

Red Court vampires are vulnerable to sunlight, and they dont have very many sorcerers; see Dresden's surprise at Bianca being able to use magic. Even six hundred year old warlords like Paolo Ortega had no magic.
Outside of the big fight in Changes, we only ever see two Red spell-users: Bianca St Claire and Arianna Ortega.

Furthermore, only really old Rampires have fleshmasks that can withstand daylight.
So if they need to travel anywhere at speed, they cant just take a plane; its via the NeverNever.
Which means opening Way gates has to be a basic capability.

We do see in Grave Peril that Bianca St Claire's mansion is explicitly a Way entrypoint.
Dresden uses it. And gets ambushed when trying to sneak onto the estate because the Reds know its a Way gate, have used it recently, and are watching it. (Back then Dresden knew fuckall about vampires)


2) There's other examples with the Reds.
Paolo Ortega was present during the final confrontation between Dresden and Bianca in Grave Peril, and escapes from Chicago after Dresden kills off Bianca's entire court in the final battle.

He's once again in Chicago for the second and final time in Death Masks to duel Dresden, and flees to Casaverde to survive the Archive after he cheats at the duel; he was not a sorcerer, and while married to one, he had no sorcerer on staff when he came to Chicago. Yet he brought a hit team with him. By elimination, he could open a Way.

Secondly.
The Eebs show up in Chicago with a hit squad of Red Court vamps, a devourer/Ick demon the size of a bull and no sorcerer on their team in Changes, meaning they travelled the Ways as well. No sorcerer means they had to be able to open the Ways just fine.


3)If the Reds dont win, the Fomor do. And the Fomor are amphibious.
We arent(yet), nor do we have any ranged attack options or tracking spells(yet). They slip into the water and they are gone.
So yes, Im assuming the Reds win. Else we might as well go home right now.


4)Yes, I am confident we can intimidate them.
Because we literally did it to a vampire in this story arc back in Update 10, so Im confident we can do it to the rest of them.
Its a proven ability which should work just fine against opposition of this level. Backed up by a Sword? Yees.

The only person who I think might be able to resist is the boss, Don whatever.
And if he does and challenges us, we kill him.
Pour encourageur les autres.
Mmm. You have some points. But we still seem to disagree on the particulars of the risk/cost/benefit analysis. The idea that all our foes are automatically better at fleeing then we are at pursuing feels flawed. At best if something goes very wrong some may escape, but we can just choose to chase whichever is carrying the gossamer. If it is even something they can carry easily while they run, depending on how large the container is.

Even if we roll flawlessly well on the intimidate I would still not trust the vampires further then we can throw them. So just because we can throw them pretty far doesn't mean they are trustworthy. It's intimidation not mind control. They won't be loyal. And if anything goes wrong they very well could break or turn on us. Murphy has a say, as you say. And having a bunch of vampires at our back is a big multiplier on just how bad it could get.

(As an aside one of my most favorite things about exalted is the potential for epic moments of social. One of my least favorite is exalted using their massive social stats like a sledgehammer to browbeat everyone into doing things their way.)

On the other hand a well timed attack against a weakened and distracted foe could be absolutely devastating. No need for anything complicated. We have all the tools we need. No need for unsavory allies. We are powerful. We have the advantage of surprise. We will have a perfect tactical position. If they get away, we screwed something up massively.

It is almost literally a fish in a barrel.

Edit: I would also like to add that I am not nearly so sure about us being able to get the vampires to do what we want. The circumstances are significantly different from our other intimidation targets. Enough that I expect the difficulty to be much higher. Such that even with our reductions it will still be challenging. Walking up to a big dangerous and organised group and glaring at them and saying "You all work for me now" is much bigger of an ask then intimidating a lone target.
 
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Americans apparently average around 2.5 kilos of food a day.
Assuming they have a hundred people(not counting magic constructs or whatnot), that would be 250 kilos a day.
In a 30 day month that comes around to 7.5 tons a month. 90 tons a year.


Roughly 2.5 full eighteen wheelers worth of cargo.
No big deal.
Freshwater from the lake, and they literally have entropic magic for both water purification and waste disposal if necessary.
Add the need for secrecy. Add air production and recycling. Add light generation, meaning power. Compound with the fact that everyone in this facility would be inner circle members aware of who they serve, while their primary operation only had about ten personnel, most of whom were outer circle dupes. No, I think we can expect at most ten to twenty people, possibly with some fomor supervisor, who might or might not be commuting to this location periodically.
 
I can't wait till we have fomori and keui jin troops of our own, its going be so hype when our type of vampires enter the verse. Keui jin are fucking strong and not limited by age or bloodlines but philosophical principles in how strong they are, we can stress train them and get them up to elder vampire levels fairly well.
 
My primary problem with these hijack plans is that our best end condition is everyone dead. Sure maybe a few escape, but a small number of desperate idiots who barely know what happened is much better than the bulk of them getting away. We have zero capacity to do anything with them right now, so it's not like we can keep 18 vamps as pets.

There's also the matter of carrying our own crit fail condition with us. How much do we need to slip up for a backstab?
 
Add the need for secrecy. Add air production and recycling. Add light generation, meaning power. Compound with the fact that everyone in this facility would be inner circle members aware of who they serve, while their primary operation only had about ten personnel, most of whom were outer circle dupes. No, I think we can expect at most ten to twenty people, possibly with some fomor supervisor, who might or might not be commuting to this location periodically.
1)Its under twenty meters of water and a couple kilometers offshore. Even without magical veils its as secret as it needs to get to hold a hundred or so people. Air production? Recycling? The Fomor have magic for that when they choose not to breathe water, and several thousand cubic kilometers of lake water to dump waste in. Light generation? They have MAGIC.

2)The underwater base is almost certainly not a site run by cultists, in my opinion. Who would train them to do so?
Cultists are usually still human enough to blend in with human society. Usually.
Thats where their utility is.

This is almost certainly the local seat of power of the project head, a Fomor sorcerer-lord overseeing the cultists doing the human-facing part of the operation on land. He will have his own staff, and they wont be human.
Not anymore anyway.

3)Niemi was apparently shift foreman; this would be the managers office. You will find nothing but servitors and slaves here as longterm residents, and one boss. D you think the Reds were initially stalling, and brought all 18 Rampires here on this assault because they were afraid of running into 20 human cultists? That seems unlikely.

4)No thats unlikely.
If gossamer is valuable enough to swing international diplomatic relationships with the setting superpowers, I guarantee there's a fomor cantrev-lord on site. Fomor society does not lend itself to an excess of trust.

5)And do remember that for Fomori, servitors and slaves are entirely expendable.
If you read Bombshells, the sorcerer lord there strangled three women to death before bed. When he was woken up for an appointment by his retainers, he demanded that the guard who was supposed to keep him from being disturbed be executed.

They will happily expend every non Fomori person on site and count it profitable.

===
Just for illustration, this is from Bombshells:
Listen was a lean and fit-looking man of middling height. His hair was cropped military short, his skin was pale, and his dark eyes looked hard and intelligent. The werewolves and I had tried to bring him down half a dozen different times, but he always managed to either escape or turn the tables and make us run for our lives.

Vicious bad guys are bad enough. Vicious, resourceful, ruthless, professional, smart bad guys are way worse. Listen was one of the latter, and I hated his fishy guts.

He and his lackeys were dressed in the standard uniform of the Fomor servitors: black slacks, black shoes, and a black turtleneck sweater. The high neck of the sweater covered up the gills on both sides of their necks, so that they could pass as mortals. They weren't, or at least they weren't anymore. The Fomor had changed them, making them stronger, faster, and all but immune to pain. I'd never managed to set up a successful ambush before, and now one had fallen right into my lap. I absolutely ached to avenge the blood I'd washed from my body early that very day.

But the servitors had weird minds, and they kept getting weirder. It was damned difficult to get into their heads the way I would need to do, and if that first attack failed in close quarters like these, that crew would tear Andi and me apart.

So I ground my teeth. I put my hand on Andi's neck and squeezed slightly as I crouched down beside her, focusing on the veil. I had to tamp down on the introspection suggestion: Listen had nearly killed me a few months before, when he noticed a similar enchantment altering the course of his thoughts. That had been damned scary, but I'd worked on it since then. I closed my eyes and spun the lightest, finest cobwebs of suggestion that my gifts could manage while simultaneously drawing the veil even tighter around us. The light in the hallway shrunk to almost nothing, and the air just over my skin became noticeably cooler.

They came closer, Listen clearly in the lead, walking with swift and silent purpose. The son of a bitch passed within two feet of me. I could have reached out and touched him with my hand.

None of them stopped.

They went down the hall to room 8, and Listen pushed a key into a door. He opened it, and he and his buddies began to enter the room.

This was an opportunity I couldn't pass up. For all the horror the Fomor had brought to the world since the extinction of the Red Court, we still didn't know why they did what they did. We didn't know what they wanted, or how they thought their current actions would get it for them.

So I moved in all the silence the past year had taught me the hard way, and stalked up to the line of servitors passing into the chamber. After a startled second, Andi joined me just as quietly. We barely slipped through the door before it shut.

No one looked back at us as we passed into a palatial suite, furnished as lavishly as the rest of the building. In addition to the half dozen turtlenecks in Listen's party, another five were standing around the room in a guard position, backs straight, their arms clasped behind them.

"Where is he?" Listen asked a guard standing beside a door. The guard was the biggest turtleneck there, with a neck like a fireplug.

"Inside," the guard said.

"It is nearly time," Listen said. "Inform him."

"He left orders that he was not to be disturbed."


Listen seemed to consider that for a moment. Then he said, "A lack of punctuality will invalidate the treaty and make our mission impossible. Inform him."

The guard scowled. "The lord left orders that—"

Listen's upper body surged in a sudden motion, so fast that I could only see it as motion. The big guard let out a sudden hiss and a grunt, and blood abruptly fountained from his throat. He staggered a step, turned to Listen, and raised a hand.

Then he shuddered and collapsed on the floor, blood pumping rapidly from a huge and jagged wound in his neck.

Listen dropped a chunk of meat the size of a baseball from his bare, bloody fingers, and bent over to wipe them clean on the dead turtleneck's sweater. The blood didn't show against the black. He straightened up again and then knocked on the door.


"My lord. It is nearly midnight."

He did it again exactly sixty seconds later.

And he repeated it three more times before a slurred voice answered, "I left orders that I was not to be disturbed."

"Forgive me, my lord, but the time is upon us. If we do not act, our efforts are for nothing."

"
It is not for you to presume what orders may or may not be ignored," said the voice. "Execute the fool who allowed my sleep to be disturbed."

"It is already done, my lord."

There was a somewhat mollified grunt from the far side of the door, and a moment later it opened, and for the first time I saw one of the lords of the Fomor.

He was a tall, extremely gaunt being, yet somehow not thin. His hands and feet were too large, and his stomach bulged as if it contained a basketball. His jowls were oversized as well, his jaws swollen as if he had the mumps. His lips were too wide, too thick, and too rubbery-looking. His hair was too flattened, too limp, like strands of seaweed just washed up onto shore, and on the whole he looked like some kind of gangling, poisonous frog. He was dressed only in a blanket draped across his shoulders. Ew.

There were three women in the room behind him, naked and scattered and dead. Each had livid purple bruises around her throat and glassy, staring eyes.

The turtlenecks all dropped to the floor in supplication as the Fomor entered, though Listen only genuflected upon one knee.

"He is here?" asked the Fomor.
That was the escort of a cantrev-lord at a diplomatic function.

For a look at the actual forces of one of those sorcerers when they dont have to worry about diplomacy, read Even Hand.
No numbers, but sufficient war beasts that those that made it through Marcone's outer defenses were so many that an ambush in a corridor piled them high enough that the dead bodies obscured the remaining living.

Worth remembering: Nicodemus Archleone gets his mutated guard beasts on consignment from the Fomor.
They are allegedly very good at bioengineering and programming.
The idea that the Cultists instantly get away after they've won is very unlikely.
They would have already fled if they wanted/could do it.

As for the Reds, if they tried to enter the Nevernever they would have to enter Formor-aligned territory after killing their minions, which is a terrible idea.

And the XP-argument is completly pointless, we will grow as we go along and there's no sense in trying to cram as many XP per Arc as possible. That only means that the difficulty gets adjusted sooner to account for the stronger Molly.

Let's keep it simple, let our enemies kill each other and then finish the rest.
1) Not cultists. Fomor sorcerer and his retinue. The cultists run the above water operation; the sorcerer gives orders and takes delivery of the product. The Reds are unlikely to have dragged their feet on storming this base if all they had to worry about were mostly human cultists. The Eebs stormed the FBI Chicago building with a single team of Rampires and an Ick.

2)Pretty sure that's not Formor territory on the flipside.
If that was literally the backside of Fomor territory, they wouldnt even need a base.
All we can reasonably surmise is that crossing over into the NeverNever there would give you access to a Way to Fomor territory

3)The XP argument is entirely relevant.
I can't wait till we have fomori and keui jin troops of our own, its going be so hype when our type of vampires enter the verse. Keui jin are fucking strong and not limited by age or bloodlines but philosophical principles in how strong they are, we can stress train them and get them up to elder vampire levels fairly well.
Kuei jin are unlikely to be on the table.
We have zero use for cannibals.
 
This is almost certainly the local seat of power of the project head, a Fomor sorcerer-lord overseeing the cultists doing the human-facing part of the operation on land. He will have his own staff, and they wont be human.
Not anymore anyway.
Your projection of ~100 people down there makes this installation about an order of magnitude larger than the Soul's Rest, which was the primary facility in the region. Because we have zero evidence for any other fomor-associated activity in the Cleveland area. So, you essentially have, in your analogy, a manager with 10 secretaries and 1 worker. That's not efficient or logical organizational structure, no matter how one looks at it.
 
I can't wait till we have fomori and keui jin troops of our own, its going be so hype when our type of vampires enter the verse. Keui jin are fucking strong and not limited by age or bloodlines but philosophical principles in how strong they are, we can stress train them and get them up to elder vampire levels fairly well.

The Wan Kuei can't advance to transhuman abilities until they're a century old.

Also, we can't make them , they have to be sinners we've thrown into our hell who then escape.

And there's also the issue of dharmic teaching. We'd probably need something like the custom charms I proposed earlier in the thread to do something like this.
 
Kuei jin are unlikely to be on the table.
We have zero use for cannibals.
Pereumably we can use the charm that we can use to reduce creatures need on our creations as well, so they won't be cannibals, just need to teach them higher thought again.
The Wan Kuei can't advance to transhuman abilities until they're a century old.

Also, we can't make them , they have to be sinners we've thrown into our hell who then escape.

And there's also the issue of dharmic teaching. We'd probably need something like the custom charms I proposed earlier in the thread to do something like this.
I don't remember that bit, do you mean the bit where they are animal level intellect for a while or is it something else.
 
I don't remember that bit, do you mean the bit where they are animal level intellect for a while or is it something else.

There are two things.

First, in order to rise above being a Chin Mei, basically a monster with animal level intelligence and an unending hunger for human flesh, most Wan Kuei need to have the basics of a dharma magically imposed on them, although a small minority with a very strong wills can pull themselves together based on their old humanity. Even that isn't sustainable, virtually all Wan Kuei need the tried and tested teachings of a dharma to avoid regressing to the Chin Mei state. A very few of those who manage to retain their sanity can intuit a very basic dharma based on part of their new nature (Yin and Yang, Hun and Po), but that's unstable and a dead end. It's very hard to make a dharma, most seem to have been invented by the fallen Wan Xian building on their prior knowledge and intellect, and then diversified and improved by millennia of study by bodhissatva and arhats.

Secondly, only those Wan Kuei that have experienced more than a long human lifespan (a century) in that state can develop transhuman, I.E. more than five dot, traits.
 
Your projection of ~100 people down there makes this installation about an order of magnitude larger than the Soul's Rest, which was the primary facility in the region. Because we have zero evidence for any other fomor-associated activity in the Cleveland area. So, you essentially have, in your analogy, a manager with 10 secretaries and 1 worker. That's not efficient or logical organizational structure, no matter how one looks at it.
No it doesnt.
Souls Rest is a nursing home; medium sized it would have more than a hundred residents.
And Soul's Rest is a wee bit more than medium sized just by fluff.

Furthermore, the facilities for human seniors who are paying good money to live in a nursing home?
Is not the same as the dormitories for slaves and servitors serving a slavemaster.
Only the boss is gonna have anything remotely up to spec here. I wouldnt be surprised if hotbunking is a thing for the menials.

Or we could just go by confirmed numbers.

There are 87 confirmed Pathfinders according to the Crown of Eyes, not all of them here.
We captured 5 mooks, crippled a guard, killed one sorcerer, frightened a nurse into unconsciousness. Thats 8 left at Soul's Rest in various forms of incapacitation.

WoG is that there's another 10-20 heading here. We'd have 18-28 Pathfinders in Cleveland.
Thats just Pathfinders, mind; cultists.
Fomor and fomor servitors and war beasts are not included in that number.

It's a stealth op, making yourself easier to find for the sake of luxury would be stupid. If the fomor lords couldn't contain themselves the smart play would be to only stop by for inspections, or to send a less important subordinate that they can order to rough it.
I think you're about to be disappointed.

Because the fomor certainly do luxury of that sort; their servitors might not, but they do. Cantrev-lords are the sort of people who intercept and kidnap diplomatic representatives returning to the White Court from their own capital because they like their looks. Who imperil treaty negotiations by ordering their retainers not to disturb their sleep.

I would recommend taking another look at the short stories Even Hand and Bombshells.
If you have the time.
 
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There are two things.

First, in order to rise above being a Chin Mei, basically a monster with animal level intelligence and an unending hunger for human flesh, most Wan Kuei need to have the basics of a dharma magically imposed on them, although a small minority with a very strong wills can pull themselves together based on their old humanity. Even that isn't sustainable, virtually all Wan Kuei need the tried and tested teachings of a dharma to avoid regressing to the Chin Mei state. A very few of those who manage to retain their sanity can intuit a very basic dharma based on part of their new nature (Yin and Yang, Hun and Po), but that's unstable and a dead end. It's very hard to make a dharma, most seem to have been invented by the fallen Wan Xian building on their prior knowledge and intellect, and then diversified and improved by millennia of study by bodhissatva and arhats.

Secondly, only those Wan Kuei that have experienced more than a long human lifespan (a century) in that state can develop transhuman, I.E. more than five dot, traits.
Presumably we can use our denying weakness charm thing to take care of that or maybe just make our own dharma

The second bit should be fixable if a exalted is training them.
 
No it doesnt.
Souls Rest is a nursing home; medium sized it would have more than a hundred residents.
And Soul's Rest is a wee bit more than medium sized just by fluff.

Furthermore, the facilities for human seniors who are paying good money to live in a nursing home?
Is not the same as the dormitories for slaves and servitors serving a slavemaster.
Only the boss is gonna have anything remotely up to spec here. I wouldnt be surprised if hotbunking is a thing for the menials.

Or we could just go by confirmed numbers.

There are 87 confirmed Pathfinders according to the Crown of Eyes, not all of them here.
We captured 5 mooks, crippled a guard, killed one sorcerer, frightened a nurse into unconsciousness. Thats 8 left at Soul's Rest in various forms of incapacitation.

WoG is that there's another 10-20 heading here. We'd have 18-28 Pathfinders in Cleveland.
Thats just Pathfinders, mind; cultists.
Fomor and fomor servitors and war beasts are not included in that number.
You are not listening. Leaving close to a hundred valuable personnel overseeing at most 30 less valuable personnel is terrible resource management. They are not productive here. They can't intervene if something goes wrong. They are strictly "direct from afar". The same can be done via (magical) teleconference.

I highly doubt we'll find many, if any, non-cultist personnel there. Maybe someone hastily summoned.
 
I think you're about to be disappointed.

Because the fomor certainly do luxury of that sort; their servitors might not, but they do. Cantrev-lords are the sort of people who intercept and kidnap diplomatic representatives returning to the White Court from their own capital because they like their looks. Who imperil treaty negotiations by ordering their retainers not to disturb their sleep.

I would recommend taking another look at the short stories Even Hand and Bombshells.
If you have the time.
If they can't exercise some level of impulse control, or at minimum send subordinates who they can force to do so and trust to work somewhat independently, then I struggle to see how they ever made any progress.

Increasing the logistics footprint of your secret facility by a third to a half for no operational benefit is really dumb. Especially when it's far from your center of power.

If gossamer is important enough for Cantrev lords to be involved then it should be important for them to put some actual thought into their harvesting operation.
 
@uju32
My issue with the whole thing is that any more forces than the local cultists are entirely your conjecture.

Just because they have an underwater-bolthole does not mean that their operation here is suddenly 5 times bigger than we know, IC and OOC so far.

You made up the hypothetical sorcerer and thralls based on a general idea of how Formor work, which might have nothing to do with the cult we are actually dealing with.

They were noted to be extremly fractious though and we have absolutly no reason to think they are following the procedure of the Formor from the books.

Edit: Also for Michael the job is over, which also supports the idea that we are just cleaning up here, not diving into the much bigger bonus-dungeon.
 
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I would like to repeat the idea that I stated ages ago: if we are going to pull forces with rampires, we have to eliminate all witnesses, because their agents in the White Council will use the fact against us and Harry. Do you really think that Michael will allow to kill them all after operation? If they are clever, they will not strike against us now, they will use this in the long game.


[X] Let the vampires go first, you will clean up the winner afterwards
-[X] Take over the Vampire-ship while they are busy to avoid any getting away.
 
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