Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

As for the part above that, that would require very selective application of laws, something that is not really desirable in a law-based system, or possible to do with consistently good results.
No, it wouldn't. It would require "we don't have an extradition treaty with fae courts, and no jurisdiction to pursue criminals in their territory. We will pursue their criminals in our territory, but won't go to war against foreign nation states with nuke equivalents".

Mab and other high level "named" fae like Leanasidhe would probably be granted diplomatic immunity.
Working under the table leads to shit like Daedalus and its predecessors.
People with too little oversight and just enough true knowledge to be dangerous going out there and either making enemies they can't deal with or blowing themselves up badly enough to need a Knight of the Cross for cleanup.
While certainly a risk, it's better than ignoring the problem entirely and not using government resources where they can be used. Like finding minor talents, investigating, or at least identifying supernatural crimes, preventing rise of warlocks by means other than head chopping.
 
Such things would work, but not as any official goverment agency.

If the goverment were to acknowledge the existance of the various supernatural factions there would suddenly be major issues with crime and jurisdiction, territorial integrity and even monopoly of force as a basic principle for the state itself.

The goverment, any goverment, is much better off putting their hands on their ears and ignoring the supernatural, or they run into problems on a barely imaginable scale.

No, they are not better off ignoring the supernatural, it is frankly complete and utter stupidity to ignore them considering the fact that even right now, hundreds of thousands of people are being vanished by the supernatural. This is not something which can be ignored and will not be ignored by governments due to the immense death caused by them.
 
No, they are not better off ignoring the supernatural, it is frankly complete and utter stupidity to ignore them considering the fact that even right now, hundreds of thousands of people are being vanished by the supernatural. This is not something which can be ignored and will not be ignored by governments due to the immense death caused by them.
And that's the problem.

If a goverment really wanted to deal with that it would be much worse than the War on Terror ever got.

Edit: They would have to treat the Courts like countries sheltering terrorists, with all the consequences.

And they might also go after the easiest targets if they xan't hit the big ones, which are minor practicioners.
 
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If the goverment were to acknowledge the existance of the various supernatural factions there would suddenly be major issues with crime and jurisdiction, territorial integrity and even monopoly of force as a basic principle for the state itself.
State monopoly of force is a bad principle.
It is wrong about self-defense, wrong about restraining criminals caught red-handed until a professional lawman arrives, wrong about being able to forcibly expel troublemakers or trespassers, et cetera.
When confronted with this, monopolists tend to say something like "well but those private activities have the approval of the state and are therefore part of its monopoly" which is wrong as a matter of history, and unfalsifiable as a matter of philosophy.
 
Honestly, what worries me is that I think the supernatural becoming common knowledge might be inevitable, that the masquerade is going to shatter no matter what. There's enough hints in both the text of the quest and its themes, and OOC comments from the QM, that hint that the masquerade breaking is the coming Sixth Age, for better or worse, at least in this verse.

And as the world is now, like Artemis said, there's no way for that to happen without tragedy. So if I'm right about the oncoming breach of the masquerade looming over the setting like the coming of the apocalypse looms over vanilla ExvWoD, we're in trouble.

Of course, that doesn't really help us figure out what to do about all that, other than come up with contingency plans for magic becoming public knowledge with all that entails, but I'm not sure what that would even look like at this point.

Just my two cents on the debate.
 
State monopoly of force is a bad principle.
It is wrong about self-defense, wrong about restraining criminals caught red-handed until a professional lawman arrives, wrong about being able to forcibly expel troublemakers or trespassers, et cetera.
When confronted with this, monopolists tend to say something like "well but those private activities have the approval of the state and are therefore part of its monopoly" which is wrong as a matter of history, and unfalsifiable as a matter of philosophy.
Okay, but better a flawed monopoly than self-justice, in most cases at least?
 
Okay, but better a flawed monopoly than self-justice, in most cases at least?
:???: What?

I don't understand what you mean by that and I am a little concerned about getting too far off-topic, so let me circle back around to the matter of supernatural factions as it relates to the setting and the game.

If the Masquerade ends, normal human governments are going to have to face the fact that there's major organizations and populations that the government is effectively unable to impose its will on. In some cases, smaller human governments are already under the thumb of supernatural organizations like the Red Court.
The problem with this is not a philosophical objection about monopoly violation.
The problem with this is that the Red Court is evil and should be stopped.

The so-called "monopoly" on the use of force was bad in theory, and false in practice. Every time a private citizen defends himself against assault, that's non-monopoly force. Every time a bar bouncer drags a troublemaker outside, that's non-monopoly force. Almost everyone I know accepts these as legitimate uses of force, and the few who don't, I would disparage as "totalitarian". So if the White Council is also publicly recognized as performing some non-monopoly force, that's not necessarily a problem, any more than a bar bouncer is. Healthy state models already account for this sort of thing.

The bigger problem, IMO, is that the dominant theories of governance in the early 21st century rest on very strong assumptions of human homogeneity and interchangeability. These assumptions are already dubious, having overgeneralized from weaker 19th-20th century assumptions about the homogeneity of limited electorates. Breaking the Masquerade is going to show these assumptions to be blatantly false.

In shorter words: Average Joe believes in "democracy" because of two ideas, 1) the next voter isn't all that different from him, 2) mass voters are powerful. Once very, very different people show up to start voting or running for office, or being one-man-armies, democracy will start crumbling.
 
I don't see it that way.

Being able to punish supernatural criminals in the USA would inevitable have to involve a treaty with the Fey Courts, the Vampire Courts or the White Council made in equal standing.

This is basically impossible.

If Mab were willing or able to keep her people from hunting humans for fun, sport or nourishment she would have done so long ago.
What means does the goverment have to pursue a Fetch in Arctis Tor, or even a Red Vamp in Chichen Itza?
Any serious attempt at law-enforcement against supernatural powers will most likely end in open war between the goverment in question and several supernatural powers and have terrible consequences for the entire world.
I think that for the fey at least it's a mix of needing some level of human involvement for various species and simply not caring about the consequences outside of that.

If a deal could be reached they wouldn't be able to break faith though; just exploit the wording ruthlessly. The mortals being aware enough to fight back might be something that makes them care enough to make a deal. Especially if they negotiate on a country by country basis and have different deals with each based on their capacity to resist.

I do agree that with some powers it'd come down to war. The white court would probably dodge it since they're sunk pretty deep into the people with power in their territory already, but if the red court still exists at that point they're basically made to press people's monster hunting button.

I do think you're right about wars breaking out though. The US would go for that over surrendering any sovereignty, or even the appearance that it'd done so.

At that point I think we'd basically have to choose a side; this under the table contractor stuff wouldn't fly anymore. Which could be an opportunity for us if we're inclined to go that direction.

Go all in with the feds and sign on with an actually clean supernatural division, work out way to the top because an exalt should just be that good, and become a national level power player in shaping the new world.

I'd rather not do that while things are still secret personally.

Edit:

The so-called "monopoly" on the use of force was bad in theory, and false in practice.
You're kind of arguing against the basis of every governmental system in existence here, and playing silly purist games about the monopoly on force.

It's never a perfect monopoly, but for governments like the US it's unquestionable (from a mundane perspective) that they're the strongest force and that the lesser ones have to comply. Your capacity to maintain such a state within your own territory is a big part of what goes into measuring the legitimacy of a government. Not all of it, but on a functional level you aren't a real government anymore if you lose the ability to enforce your rulings.

The basis of your point here is at best debatable, and more relevantly isn't one subscribed to by people outside of anarchist communes. Mortal governments the world over are going to act to attempt to preserve their monopoly on and exclusive legitimate right to use force where they can.

Bouncers kicking people out of bars isn't the same as systematic enforcement of laws across a nation's territory. The comparison is ridiculous, and no one will treat it that way.


Your bit about democracy is also nonsense. Seeing strange outside forces makes people band together and put aside their differences. Vampires in the night will simply make people put aside their politics to pick up stakes. Or at least manufacture them for people who can pick them up.
 
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I think that for the fey at least it's a mix of needing some level of human involvement for various species and simply not caring about the consequences outside of that.

If a deal could be reached they wouldn't be able to break faith though; just exploit the wording ruthlessly. The mortals being aware enough to fight back might be something that makes them care enough to make a deal. Especially if they negotiate on a country by country basis and have different deals with each based on their capacity to resist.
I can't help but remember Viserys' attempt to negotiate with the Fey though, which had to be solved with a bit of genocide.

Different Queens, but same author...
 
I can't help but remember Viserys' attempt to negotiate with the Fey though, which had to be solved with a bit of genocide.

Different Queens, but same author...
They're fundamentally different beings though, for all they share a name.

These fey don't run on narrativium, and are already the preeminent supernatural power. They've also demonstrated the willingness and ability to make agreements and bind themselves to them even when it makes their own operations more complicated in some respects.

No one's problems on either side can actually be solved by state violence, so the question is if mortal resistance is worth cutting a deal to manage or if the fey courts would accept making everything into even more of a stealth mission than it already is while doing stuff in the mortal world.
 
Really, any kind of sharp state transition is going to go very bloodily and poorly for the common man and minor supernaturals.

A gradual increase in awareness and understanding how to manage the supernatural is a generational prerequisite to the Masquerade falling without mass civilian victims
 
Really, any kind of sharp state transition is going to go very bloodily and poorly for the common man and minor supernaturals.

A gradual increase in awareness and understanding how to manage the supernatural is a generational prerequisite to the Masquerade falling without mass civilian victims
9xp to buy 2 dots in Expression and the excellency. Would allow Molly to start pumping out legendary social attacks with CCC on. She could probably cause a United world government to form in just a year
 
Exalted social is no longer mindcontrol.

The old joke "I lean forward and begain seducing him.....but he is strait......I lean forward and begain seducing him." is no not true anymore.
 
You're kind of arguing against the basis of every governmental system in existence here, and playing silly purist games about the monopoly on force.

It's never a perfect monopoly, but for governments like the US it's unquestionable (from a mundane perspective) that they're the strongest force and that the lesser ones have to comply. Your capacity to maintain such a state within your own territory is a big part of what goes into measuring the legitimacy of a government. Not all of it, but on a functional level you aren't a real government anymore if you lose the ability to enforce your rulings.
Mortal governments the world over are going to act to attempt to preserve their monopoly on and exclusive legitimate right to use force where they can.
You say I'm playing silly purist games, well I say you're playing silly bait-and-switch games, where you change between the government being the only game in town and being the strongest game in town, and I find it rather aggravating. "Monopoly". "Exclusive". Those are purist words.

But if you want to insist, fine, the US Government can very easily maintain a "monopoly" on the use of force by declaring the White Council nationalized and incorporated as an official government organization. On paper. ;)

The basis of your point here is at best debatable, and more relevantly isn't one subscribed to by people outside of anarchist communes.
Funny you should say that, because I first heard this point argued from an authoritarian (in the political sense, not derogatory) community. :lol:

Your bit about democracy is also nonsense. Seeing strange outside forces makes people band together and put aside their differences. Vampires in the night will simply make people put aside their politics to pick up stakes. Or at least manufacture them for people who can pick them up.
For vampires specifically, sure, they're easily identifiable monsters and outside forces. For unlicensed vampire-hunters and mages who are still human, particularly ones who can endow or empower other humans, and are willing to team up with humans against vampires, I expect a lot of people will be interested in joining that team.
 
Exalted social is no longer mindcontrol.

The old joke "I lean forward and begain seducing him.....but he is strait......I lean forward and begain seducing him." is no not true anymore.
Infernal don't really get those charms, not that Exalted need them for mortals. Expression 2 + Charisma 3 = 10 dice mortal max, Thrown in CCC to reduce difficultly by -3. Being generous and say default 8 goes down to 5, average success = about 5 legendary level. When your weakest speech is "I Have a Dream" level you quickly get to spend willpower, or lose social combat. And Molly can do this every single day.
 
My point is rolling 10 sux will not allow you to mindcontrol people. If so them Mab would have isned us.
 
My point is rolling 10 sux will not allow you to mindcontrol people. If so them Mab would have isned us.
Course not, rolling 10 successes on average over a 100 times however. Mortals just do not have a counter to Exalted dice pools. When the Exalted can just everyday/week give a legendary speech to the masses, eventually it goes thou to everybody. Want to push people being ethical and moral people, give it a month or two and Molly can do that.
 
You say I'm playing silly purist games, well I say you're playing silly bait-and-switch games, where you change between the government being the only game in town and being the strongest game in town, and I find it rather aggravating. "Monopoly". "Exclusive". Those are purist words.

But if you want to insist, fine, the US Government can very easily maintain a "monopoly" on the use of force by declaring the White Council nationalized and incorporated as an official government organization. On paper. ;)
That's not the point. Monopoly on force comes in two parts. The first is being strong enough that no other player can oppose you in your territory, not literally being the only person who can exert it. The second is using that position to establish a rule system that empowers you as the entity in charge of dictating how force is used.

A more accurate phrase would be monopoly on legitimate use of force, but most of the time people get the point and don't quibble about the fact that governments can't make it impossible for people to get into fist fights.

As long as you can't oppose the strongest game in town and they dictate to you when, where, and how you may use force they are exerting control over it as an entity.

Legal fictions could have a place here, but large governments won't except conditions like that until they've tried everything else first.

Even when it's not a fiction major governments hate stuff like that. See how UN peacekeepers never show up on the job in the US.

Funny you should say that, because I first heard this point argued from an authoritarian (in the political sense, not derogatory) community. :lol:
I'm not a fascist, thanks for the implication though. We're literally talking about fundamental definitions of statehood here, sovereignty is universally understood.

Legitimacy was the wrong word to use. Personally I don't really thing a government is legitimate if it isn't democratic, but it doesn't have to be legitimate to be real and operating as a government.

If you can't govern you aren't a government, even if you have the legitimate right to be from something like an election.

That doesn't mean anyone is obligated to side with an existing government over the rightful one for the same territory in some hypothetical scenario, but it's acknowledging the physical reality of the situation.

For vampires specifically, sure, they're easily identifiable monsters and outside forces. For unlicensed vampire-hunters and mages who are still human, particularly ones who can endow or empower other humans, and are willing to team up with humans against vampires, I expect a lot of people will be interested in joining that team
People will reach for knowledge and weapons yeah, but I don't think it'll happen in a way that splinters the nation. That would effectively require all the people in the government to act like they do in comic books and movies; namely to get out of the way so others can step in.

It would be a bloody mess, but the familiar and trusted would be more accessible and familiar to most people. In the US I'd imagine there'd be riots, followed by the national guard and military units restoring order. Then it would turn into a bloody and complicated cross between a war and peacekeeping operation.
 
The problem being those disguised amongst us, and literal raiders from another dimension.

It'd be steppe nomads all over again - the best way to reduce raiding is diplomacy, but people are mad and want to take a swing, and it feels really satisfying when you connect on a couple but only further increase raiding for trying.
 
Really, any kind of sharp state transition is going to go very bloodily and poorly for the common man and minor supernaturals.

A gradual increase in awareness and understanding how to manage the supernatural is a generational prerequisite to the Masquerade falling without mass civilian victims

The problem is it's very hard for the system to fall without mass casualties because there are powers on both sides of the curtain interested in keeping it up. The only way it's going to fall slowly as far as Molly can tell is if it is already agreed upon and then arranged to do so for public consumption.

Anyway vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 25, 2022 at 9:08 AM, finished with 95 posts and 21 votes.
 
And that's the problem.

If a goverment really wanted to deal with that it would be much worse than the War on Terror ever got.

Edit: They would have to treat the Courts like countries sheltering terrorists, with all the consequences.

And they might also go after the easiest targets if they xan't hit the big ones, which are minor practicioners.

The situation currently is such that it fundamentally needs to be changed as this cannot continue as is for the people present in the state. Along with the fact that the more likely outcome when finding hordes of maneating monsters is to team up and recruit minor practitioners and others to deal with this current status quo and establish the rights of the country with far more ease in supernatural society than some Mob boss in Chicago.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 25, 2022 at 9:08 AM, finished with 95 posts and 21 votes.
 
Arc 3 Interlude 1: Cybernetic Infiltration Report Alpha
Cybernetic Infiltration Report Alpha

Target: Daedalus Project/National Security Branch/Federal Bureau of Investigations

Penetration Level: Light

Methodology
Making use of preexisting contact within the device of the mortal agent designated 'Wright' we quickly extracted the full complement of regularly used passwords {Minor aside: Contempt for Repetition/fallible human memory requiring it}. Extraction of the full report of the events at the Museum of Science and Industry and Security in Chicago on 22/07/2006 was followed by infiltration of the account of one of his less experienced colleagues, James Castle, who also took part in the observation of the Museum and the debrief afterwards.

Said lack of experience was instrumental in discovering introductory documents which he accessed repeatedly in addition to psychological welfare aid {query: reason for mental damage unclear?/source potentially compromised} . All information obtained from Castle was thus exposed to more through testing to account for his potential dissatisfaction with baseline material reality. No discrepancies were found, beyond expected baseline biases of his organization.

After Action Report
Confirmation of Class 9 Esper activity {See Terminology and General knowledge} and LLE hot spot as well as memetic dangers which pushed agents on site off the property during initial investigation. The agents on sight initially estimated a much lower threat rating due to their equipment remaining in good order though later analyses of the bodies as well as the anomalous flooding confirmed a breech into a para-terestrial realm. No samples of foreign matter could be recovered due to the dilution in water from the broken pipes as a result of what Doctor Richards called 'the principle of sympathy'. Both the ritualistic nature of the deaths and the symbolism used indicates a connection to Cluster C Beliefs {Note: Germanic and Celtic Pantheons/Frustration}.

Signs of defensive post mortem animation in many of the victims would indicate that the breach did not go to plan, either to to PTEs entering reality using said breach as a path or due to intervention by other interested agents within the city. Due to the pattern of camera failure in starting at 9:03 at the main entrance the latter seems more likely. Forensic data is still being gathered for processing, made more difficult by the fact that the large number of postmortem animations require the use of specialists with the highest level of clearance.

There is no sign of lingering LLE presence either during the day or at night, thermals have not detected any anomalous signs associated with the chamber that seems to have been the focus of the ritual. Signs of SAP {Note Spontaneous Anomalous Combustion/Extreme Frustration} are consistent with an High Threat Esper conflict. Lawmaker activity cannot be ruled out particularly given the fact that their agent Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden had been freed more than three hours earlier, giving him more than enough time to reach the scene in time to be the attacking agent. Pursuant on investigations from central no attempts were made to contact him again. All charges against him have been dropped.


Cooperation with local law enforcement has been uneven, on the one hand Chicago's Special Investigation Unit has proven very knowledgeable, even possessing certain 'tried and true methodologies of dealing with what goes bump in the night'. Given previous association of their Lieutenant with Dresden we suspect it is Lawmaker-sourced information. I suggest that Karin Murphy be assigned a Lawmaker Collaborator tag and flagged for later investigation. All information gained from Chicago SI has been attached for verification and potential use.

Terminology and General Knowledge

Esper - mortal capable of using magic. They are ranked in an exponential threat scale from 1 to 10. Seemingly biased towards blunt applications of sorcery. Daedalus assumes that those capable of channeling more power are also more flexible and skilled overall. There is some indirect indication that this perception is changing over time, though the insistence on exhaustive experimental data for hard conclusions makes initial biases hard to root out despite the fact that they are based on some of the most incomplete data. {Exasperation/Query Disassociation with reality?}

PTE [Para-Terrestrial Entity] - Colloquially used for any non human being that was created by or can manipulate magic, though it is most properly used for beings of the Spirit World. It is broadly assumes that all PTEs are hostile to human life and dangerous to approach. Field Agents are advised to not approach and contact central command if contacted
-LLE [Life-Like Entities] - Specters; ghosts and spirits. As the name indicates the field-guide indicates that they are not truly the people in whose image they form. Simile used: 'no more than the lure of an Anglerfish is a tasty worm'. Some of the terminology might lead to certain fey being catalogued as such
-ASG [Archetype Spirit Guides] - Animistic spirits which watch over mortal communities from some greater interest. Daedalus seems to recognize this, but they appear to believe that such beings are limited to the American South West. It is advised that these 'PTAs' do not present a memetic threat if contacted

ACE [Anomalous Catalogued Entity] - the proper designation of non-human beings of the material world which have been catalogued and for which some response is designated.
-PMA [Postmortem Animate] - zombie; seem as flesh puppets of a deranged esper 'Kill' on sight' order. Would likely include vampires of the Black Court
-Hemophages - Vampires of the Red Cort - one of the most well catalogued entities, means of holding them at bay, weakening them by draining their blood reserves as well as killing at range are effective and professional, though awareness of their wider organization seems lacking. This may be due to the source of the information being meant for junior agents
-NHH [Non-Human Hominids] - Mortals which do not precisely fit the Daedalus definition of 'human'. small populations of them are said to exist in remote regions of North and South America and Asia. They have remained hidden with the aid of 'Esper-Like Abilities'

AUE [Anomalous Uncatalogued Entity] - the proper designation of non-human beings of the material world which have been catalogued and for which no standard response is yet designated. General procedure is to break contact unless the being presents an immediate threat to human life in which case the agent is authorized to intervene, though with emphasis on preserving the mortal in question not eliminating the threat. No-standard expression used: 'Don't be a cowboy' {Querry what is the significance of herding cows?}


OOC: This is about as High as you could roll for information on Light infiltration. The Soul's Rest info will be in the next proper update as that flows more easily into the investigation proper.
 
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