Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Isn't crafting demons into objects the typical Infernal craft?
I didn't really read much about e2 crafting though.

Regardless, I still prefer Fetishes.
Convincing or beating spirits to craft is definitly within our abilities and we can do it for a 10 XP spell from Ancient Sorcery, rather than a 16 or 20 XP Charm.
Certainly one of them. But that was more along the lines of transformation; the demon generally wasnt actually dead.
Abyssals otoh kill shit and then forge their souls into tools. Which is essentially what the new pdf is saying that every Craft project of 3 dots and above should involve.

That seems, at best, questionable. Even for an Infernal, let alone Molly.

Molly is at a diplomatic malus to negotiating with non-wicked spirits.
Is not going to be willing to stomach brutalizing spirits until they agree to embody a fetish, both for ethical reasons and to avoid possible issues with betrayal.

And is unlikely to be willing to spend AP to pay spirits for each fetish she makes. Pennywise pound foolish IMO.
For that matter, doesn't Usum, who sees through our eyes, have perfect memory outside of ages-long magically enforced slumber and possibly surviving through multiple collapses of reality?
I dont actually know.

@DragonParadox
QUESTION
1)Does Usum have perfect memory of what Molly does? Or is he limited to only as much as Molly can remember?
2)Can Usum speak Old Realm?
 
Mostly because of the observers. We want to investigate the language, but we're already firing on all cylinders in terms of freaking people out. Obviously taking records won't help there, and may bring us trouble later.

I also have a minor and paranoid concern about keeping around any sort of physical record of a neverborn's name. I can't prove that it's a bad idea, so I'm trying to ignore the thought that we might end up dealing with some sort of bullshit happening as a result, but I haven't been entirely successful.

All of this came from inside Molly's head when she didn't even know what she was asking for, so I don't ultimately see a more targeted investigation being too big an ask.
Worse case we just need to write down one character to ask the crown for knowledge on the language.
Im not really seeing that as a concern.

Like I said, that price has already been paid.
We produced the ritual circle and its inscriptions off the cuff without looking at any notes. As far as anyone else here besides Dresden is aware, we can reproduce it again. Because none of them besides Dresden knows about the Crown and its mechanics.

Taking a photo does not raise our threat level any further.

And while I previously shared your concern about the Neverborn, the comment about the resonance with Black Court vampires settled it. I have no evidence, but I get the impression a lot of things are less deeply buried than you'd think.
We cant afford ignorance, playing at the level we intend to be.
 
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Is not going to be willing to stomach brutalizing spirits until they agree to embody a fetish, both for ethical reasons and to avoid possible issues with betrayal.
Couldn't we just get non-sentient spirits from the nevernever?

Killing spiritual bacteria and using them for parts isn't a big deal. Sufficiently clean kills on animal tier spirits wouldn't be any worse than using leather either.

We'd "just" need to go hunting in the nevernever instead of using our opponents, and likely give up on the high tier stuff you only get from major entities.
Im not really seeing that as a concern.

Like I said, that price has already been paid.
We produced the ritual circle and its inscriptions off the cuff without looking at any notes. As far as anyone else here besides Dresden is aware, we can reproduce it again. Because none of them besides Dresden knows about the Crown and its mechanics.

Taking a photo does not raise our threat level any further.

And while I previously shared your concern about the Neverborn, the comment about the resonance with Black Court vampires settled it. I have no evidence, but I get the impression a lot of things are less deeply buried than you'd think.
We cant afford ignorance, playing at the level we intend to be.
Maybe. Depends on how the picture is parsed. We should be able to do this again since we needed to know how to try in the first place, but this was only partially our knowledge.

A knowledgeable observer would probably be able to tell that we contributed the most to the success of the ritual, but we didn't create all of the framework.

The concern would probably mostly be what if the work from a few high tier necromancers and a death god we'd like to preserve for later.

Edit: fixed error
 
Couldn't we just get non-sentient spirits from the nevernever?

Killing spiritual bacteria and using them for parts isn't a big deal. Sufficiently clean kills on animal tier spirits wouldn't be any worse than using leather either.

We'd "just" need to go hunting in the nevernever instead of using our opponents, and likely give up on the high tier stuff you only get from major entities.

Maybe. Depends on how the picture is parsed. We should be able to do this again since we needed to know how to try in the first place, but this was only partially our knowledge.

A knowledgeable observer would probably be able to tell that we contributed the most to the success of the ritual, but we didn't create all of the framework.

The concern would probably mostly be what if the work from a few high tier necromancers and a death god we'd like to preserve for later.

Edit: fixed error
We just need to find something nasty enough that Molly considers torturing it into a fetish is the best way to ensure it doesn't prey on more innocent people like Molly was once herself. If a fetch found itself at Molly's mercy, do you think her unable to do what it takes to ensure it never threatens anyone again?

We are not innocent. We just now killed a necromancer with our swords.
 
We just need to find something nasty enough that Molly considers torturing it into a fetish is the best way to ensure it doesn't prey on more innocent people like Molly was once herself. If a fetch found itself at Molly's mercy, do you think her unable to do what it takes to ensure it never threatens anyone again?

We are not innocent. We just now killed a necromancer with our swords.
Torturing stuff for our benefit and killing necromancers who've done and are actively doing awful things aren't the same. Equivocating like that is ridiculous.

Let's not play the slippery slope game from the other direction here.

Molly's thing with fetches is basically fantasy racism; they're dangerous monsters, but Molly's hatred isn't based on any rational analysis. I don't think we should be feeding it.
 
By the way, who are Neverborn in this setting?
Dead yozi. The Yozi created... well, the material universe, some ages past (it changed a lot meanwhile), by literally creating 'little gods' (and some big ones) to stabilize it from a milder version of the warp (from wh40k) as well as some other servant races for various gardening and farming purposes. They were 'never born', ie, they just appeared from the idea of a set of concepts from that chaos.

In doing this they realized their weak and pitiful slave gods and races could get too damaged to function, and it would be nice if they could recycle. They created death and reincarnation as a cycle you go through to get a +1 (without any advantages, such as keeping memory or abilities, just pure soul recycling).

Then some bonehead had the idea 'what if we could make something that is more perfect than perfect'. Here comes Sol Invictus. This dude didn't like being a slave, and after some conspiracy and help used one of the slave races (humans) to graft a weapon made of part of his power (exaltations) that could do the impossible (whatever the consequences).

They used this weapon to kill (some of) the Yozi (they were named primordials back then, yozi is the 'alive but mutilated' version).

This was a mistake, because the cycle of reincarnation was never designed to recycle a yozi so they sort of broke it down a little, for them and those 'metaphysically near' them. So they're stuck in very non-active undeath, hating everything and everyone, especially the alive. Their name 'neverborn' is a bit more ironic now that that's the process they're failing at repeatably, not just a fact.

Ideally someone else repaired reincarnation long ago, but considering the problem the dresdenfiles setting has with necromancers, that's unlikely.
 
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And if you want to make those things with mortal magic you are free to do so, this is not mortal magic. This is kicking reality in the teeth until it agrees with you that Fight Club Creation rules should apply and then doing things that that should be impossible. That is going to take some heavy lifting and have narrative costs, the ones given in the doc are exclusively killing beings and using their life force in the process, but I could see stealing the flowers off Titania's bedroom shelf being worth as much. The point is you cannot just sit in a room and pump out worlds-shattering marvels all the time as an exalted

As for the use limitations, those have to do with the universe being magic starved again. Molly is standing in the middle of a storm of magic that fuels her Exaltation. This has the happy side effect that the exaltation can also reflexively reach out and share some of its powers with any creations immediately at hand. Otherwise that needs to be built in and costs points.
I have no trouble with hunting down(cost AP or sidequest), paying for(Resources) or making(cost AP) high tier or rare components for crafting high tier magic stuff. Not a big issue. My objection was to the concept that you need to kill something for everything you make, which sounded like it went against the thematics of at least two of the three settings in this AU.

Dont knock mortal magic.
See Demonreach, which would be worthy of the work of a Solar crafter from the Age of Legends.
And because Dresden is a homebody, we havent seen most of the rest of the world.

@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Is there anything preventing us making mortal magic items with the Exalted crafting charm?

Can we make Alchemy or Enchantment Path potions/items with the Infernal Crafting charm?
For example, buy the first dot to unlock the Path, and then subsequently just pay for the recipe/ritual, and make stuff, instead of buying additional dots of rank as a prerequisite? How do they interact?

Asking for a friend.
 
@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Is there anything preventing us making mortal magic items with the Exalted crafting charm?

Can we make Alchemy or Enchantment Path potions/items with the Infernal Crafting charm?
For example, buy the first dot to unlock the Path, and then subsequently just pay for the recipe/ritual, and make stuff, instead of buying additional dots of rank as a prerequisite? How do they interact?

Asking for a friend.

That would not work unfortunately, different skillets that approach magic in drastically different ways.
 
We just need to find something nasty enough that Molly considers torturing it into a fetish is the best way to ensure it doesn't prey on more innocent people like Molly was once herself. If a fetch found itself at Molly's mercy, do you think her unable to do what it takes to ensure it never threatens anyone again?

We are not innocent. We just now killed a necromancer with our swords.
Killing a person in combat is not equivalent to being willing to torture them.
Torturing stuff for our benefit and killing necromancers who've done and are actively doing awful things aren't the same. Equivocating like that is ridiculous.

Let's not play the slippery slope game from the other direction here.
Molly's thing with fetches is basically fantasy racism; they're dangerous monsters, but Molly's hatred isn't based on any rational analysis. I don't think we should be feeding it.
Also worth noting that we're using W20 Fetish background, and I quote:
Fetishes
Gaia's Chosen may use the Rite of the Fetish (see p.
213) to bind spirits into appropriately crafted and conse-
crated vessels. Such wondrous items are known as fetishes.
The owner of a fetish can call upon the spirit within to
perform specific tasks, depending on the nature of the
vessel and the spirit.
Given the multitude ofspirits within
the Tellurian and the ingenuity of the Garou, fetishes of
almost any type imaginable may be created.

Werewolves hold great reverence toward fetishes,
treating them as honored allies rather than mere tools.
Such is the nature of the pact that binds spirits into fe-
tishes; they are obligated to serve the Garou only as long
as they are respected in return. It is possible to bind a spirit
against its will, but these fetishes tend to be rebellious,
and most Garou consider them cursed.

Of course, the servants of the Wyrm bind Banes into
horrifying fetishes of their own...

The majority of fetishes are crafted from natural
materials (wood, hide, bone, clay), although this is more
a preference of most spirits than a hard rule Glass
Walkers, in particular, tend to bind spirits that prefer
more modern, technological housing. Few fetishes are
nondescript; Garou adorn them with carved river stones,
feathers, beads, and other markings to honor and appease
the spirit within.

To use a fetish, the Garou must first attune herself
to it by making a Gnosis roll. The difficulty for this roll
is the fetish's Gnosis rating. Attunement establishes a
spiritual bond between fetish and user, enabling the
Garou to take the fetish anywhere in the Tellurian
and providing instinctive understanding of the fetish's
powers. Only a single success is required to attune to
the fetish; failure indicates that the fetish has rejected
the character. Another roll may not be attempted until
the werewolf has somehow reached accord with the
resident spirit
. Attunement also effectively "dedicates"
a fetish to its wielder, as though the Rite of Talisman
Dedication had been performed on it. Since fetishes
have their own Gnosis, an attuned fetish doesn't count
against the maximum number of objects a werewolf can
have dedicated to him.

Each time the wielder wishes to use one of the fetish's
powers, the player must make a Gnosis roll (difficulty
equal to the fetish's Gnosis rating) to "activate" the power.
Alternatively, she may simply spend a Gnosis point to
activate the power automatically. Rage may not be spent
during the same turn in which a fetish is activated.
Imagine using a fetch, or something else you coerced, as a fetish and waiting for it to betray you at the worst possible time.

Fetishes and magic items/wonders are very much not equivalent.
And spirits are not interchangeable. You cant use a spirit of peace in a weapon and expect to get a better gun for killing shit; you need to track down the right spirit type(s).

We dont have to worry about the feelings or loyalties of magic items.
 
That would not work unfortunately, different skillets that approach magic in drastically different ways.
*raises eyebrow*
I thought the thematic were that Exalted dont have to worry about approach because they're essentially working in assembly code instead of Javascript. That drastically reduces the attractiveness of investing in a 5-dot Crafting charm.

Thanks for the answers.
 
Uh, what is The Archive gonna think of Mollys scribbles here?

This sounds very much like something she is supposed to clean up. Terminally.

Making a photo means its digitally recorded. It counts as written.

And that is also something The Archive will notice.

OTOH, Molly is outside Fate, so that may hide her.
 
Just burn it after memorizing it.
Take a small object from the scene that we can later use to ask later to get a mental picture of the array we drew. Much more subtle than grabbing a picture and impossible for anyone other than us to use, ensuring information security.

Or just leave knowing we can come back later when the museum is open and ask the floor tiles what the array was.
 
Uh, what is The Archive gonna think of Mollys scribbles here?

This sounds very much like something she is supposed to clean up. Terminally.

Making a photo means its digitally recorded. It counts as written.

And that is also something The Archive will notice.

OTOH, Molly is outside Fate, so that may hide her.
It's written on the floor. The secrecy ship has sailed, and Ivy is already a passenger.
 
Uh, what is The Archive gonna think of Mollys scribbles here?
This sounds very much like something she is supposed to clean up.
Terminally.

Making a photo means its digitally recorded. It counts as written.
And that is also something The Archive will notice.
OTOH, Molly is outside Fate, so that may hide her.
Ivy knew about it the minute it was inscribed on the ground. Thats how her power works.
No helping that.
On the other hand, the Archive does not pick fights it does not have to.

Lets not go borrowing trouble.
 
Uh, what is The Archive gonna think of Mollys scribbles here?

This sounds very much like something she is supposed to clean up. Terminally.

Making a photo means its digitally recorded. It counts as written.

And that is also something The Archive will notice.

OTOH, Molly is outside Fate, so that may hide her.

Also it depends on how human does Molly count due to the extreme metaphysical and physical changes she which has undertaken due to the presence of the infernal exaltation along with the presence of Usun as part of her soul. So Ivy could know or she may not, depends on if Molly fits criteria which the archive has.
 
Also it depends on how human does Molly count due to the extreme metaphysical and physical changes she which has undertaken due to the presence of the infernal exaltation along with the presence of Usun as part of her soul. So Ivy could know or she may not, depends on if Molly fits criteria which the archive has.

Well she definitely counts as human because the Exaltation can only attach to a human soul, that is why it flies off when you go Devil Tiger. On the other hand she is certainly not mortal by any metric so really it depends on how the Archive measures humanity in its internal programing.
 
Well she definitely counts as human because the Exaltation can only attach to a human soul, that is why it flies off when you go Devil Tiger. On the other hand she is certainly not mortal by any metric so really it depends on how the Archive measures humanity in its internal programing.

That is true, an exaltation can only attach a human soul which is why it flies as you noted during the tiger stage. The thing that makes it tricky is that as you noted much of the metrics which are used to measure mortals are something which Molly does not match at all which is complicated further by the unknown criteria for humanity from the Archive, especially since much of the traits Molly has are more in common with supernatural creatures then with humans.
 
Well she definitely counts as human because the Exaltation can only attach to a human soul, that is why it flies off when you go Devil Tiger. On the other hand she is certainly not mortal by any metric so really it depends on how the Archive measures humanity in its internal programing.
It does not leave when you go Devil-Tiger.
At some point towards becoming a new or old Primordial it does leave, but not with the Triumphant Howl.

Edit: There are post-DT Charms that alter your Exaltation so it keeps the changes you made to yourself instead of staying a regular Slayer/Defiler/etc Exaltation.
 
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