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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
Dresden casts in pig-Latin despite Latin being the official lingua franca of the White Council.
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o_O
Pig-Latin has no connection to Latin beyond the name, unless you're using it on a word from a romance language.
It's just a weird way of speaking English, so I'm not seeing a connection between Harry being able to speak Latin, and using Pig-Latin as his spell casting language.
uju32 said:
Outer Gods stuff. Not Outsider stuff.

They are not the same thing, at all; for one thing we know at least some of the Outer Gods are within the walls of reality
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According to the wiki, Outer Gods are the masters of the Outsiders.
Why some weren't banished 'Outside' with the rest is never explained, but I would consider an Outer God/Old One an Outsider for most intents and purposes as far as Ventori, Archive, and Oblivion War are concerned.
 
uju32 said:
2)The Venators dont even know that their ultimate boss is the Archive.
She sets corporate policy.
There's no way they attempted to cut off the Fae from the human world without it being her idea.
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Hey, that means there's another powerful being with generally decent motives who is interested in reducing the influence of the Fey Courts on reality.

Something to keep in mind.
 
Well, we can't completely get rid of the Fey without something to replace them at the Outer Gates… Hey, that used to be something the Exalted did, right? Do you think releasing the Celestial Exaltations and re-creating the Exalted Host for the purpose of defending the Outer Gates would cause more or less problems than letting the Fey keep the job?

(Not a serious suggestion, meant as a joke, don't yell at me)
 
bengalqueen said:
Well, we can't completely get rid of the Fey without something to replace them at the Outer Gates… Hey, that used to be something the Exalted did, right? Do you think releasing the Celestial Exaltations and re-creating the Exalted Host for the purpose of defending the Outer Gates would cause more or less problems than letting the Fey keep the job?

(Not a serious suggestion, meant as a joke, don't yell at me)
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I don't really want to get rid of them, just keep them out of the real world and inside their parts of the NeverNever.
 
uju32 said:
To be fair to Alratan, there is a Broken Winged Crane in Ex2.
It just doesnt seem to be the same book.
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It's never the same book. The book doesn't exist (yet). It's yet to be truly written. Basically, my point is that we might want to generally be prepared for it to be encountered, possibly with progressively more powerful / complete versions appearing as we become more powerful.

bengalqueen said:
Well, we can't completely get rid of the Fey without something to replace them at the Outer Gates… Hey, that used to be something the Exalted did, right? Do you think releasing the Celestial Exaltations and re-creating the Exalted Host for the purpose of defending the Outer Gates would cause more or less problems than letting the Fey keep the job?

(Not a serious suggestion, meant as a joke, don't yell at me)
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There's no Great Curse, so benevolent eternal Golden Deliberative is absolutely possible. And exalted did more than defend Creation against Wyld. They aggressively expanded and creation-formed the outer chaos.

So, yes, releasing the exalted host after making sure our side is prepared to snag the new exalts and unite them around our banner is absolutely a win condition for the world.
 
firefrog600 said:
I doubt the archive was that stupid at the time though also I mean outsider infections easily could have caused it. Not like they have instant communication or not have pockets within the organization.
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1)The Archive is neither perfect nor allknowing. Its a magical library/librarian and hardcoded AI embodied in the body of a woman.
We are talking about the same entity that spent several decades, if not centuries, playing the part of various prophets snd soothsayers for some reason, using old knowledge to make predictive models of the future.

While allegedly mad.

I have no trouble believing that one of her ancestors might have tried something like this.
We dont know how the mental status of the host would have affected the functioning of the greater Archive entity.
Especially back in the old days when written records were nowhere as widespread as they are now.


2)The true Venators are organized in cells.
Its literally impossible for them to attempt to execute any type of widespread policy without the Archive's direction and coordination because they dont know who most of the other Venators are.

If Outsiders corrupted a cell, it would have zero impact on the greater organization's policy because thats set by the Archive, who would just cut that cell off and point the White Council or some other heavy hitters at them.

the DragonBard said:
o_O
Pig-Latin has no connection to Latin beyond the name, unless you're using it on a word from a romance language.
It's just a weird way of speaking English, so I'm not seeing a connection between Harry being able to speak Latin, and using Pig-Latin as his spell casting language.

According to the wiki, Outer Gods are the masters of the Outsiders.
Why some weren't banished 'Outside' with the rest is never explained, but I would consider an Outer God/Old One an Outsider for most intents and purposes as far as Ventori, Archive, and Oblivion War are concerned.
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1)Because I mispoke.

Its not pig Latin, or at least not just pig Latin, because flickum bicus is definitely pig Latin.
Its also dog Latin, and plain Latin. He also uses Italian and Spanish for a thorough mishmash of source languages
Spells Used by Dresden:

Aparturum: opens a way to the Never Never
Appare: summons demons
Aquilevatus: creates a curtain of water
Arctis: freezing/ice
Assantius: Erupts with kinetic force
Defendarius: Produces a sphere shaped shield of blue energy
Disperdorius: Disperses, fractures dangerous energy
Dispertius: Creates a crack/hole in the ground
Dormius, Dorme: used to put someone into a dreamless sleep
Duo Et Unum: tracking spell
Feniculus Sonitus: eavesdropping spell
Flickum Bicus: small fires -- lighting candles, and other small scale fires.
Flammamurus: super-heats the ground below, and causes magma to burst forth from the ground
Fortius: Fortified Harry with renewed strength and energy when touching silver buckle
Forzare: creates a push of force
Fuego: destructive fire attack
Fulminos/Fulminas: generates or redirects a bolt of lightning
Galvinius: Used with copper chain focus as a kind of taser
Geodas: Creates a sinkhole
Gravitus: Concentrates gravity
Hexus: A minor damaging of electrical equipment
Ignus, Infusiarus: Ignites a small floating ball of flame like a tiny sun
Illumina Magnus: Highlighted a message written in magic-tainted water by sending copper filings to attach to it
Infriga; Infriga Forzare: Sucks fire/heat away from a given area, creating ice
Interessari, Interressarium: Tracking spell, with blood and a compass
Laqueus: Cord of pure force with soulfire, glitters and flashes: a supernatural garote
Lumen, Camerus, Factum: Creates a holomantic illusion of anybody; illusions are mostly opaque
Malivaso: Destroys a piece of technology
Memoratum, Defendre Memorarius: A memory charm for defense
Noctus Ex Illuminus: Illusions
Obscurata: Veil
Pulitas: Cleaning spell using a piece of straw from the broom, creates sweeping brooms
Pyro Fuego: Larger destructive fire attack; dense bar of blue-white fire, so dense almost solid like a spear
Reperios, Invenios: Chant used in tracking spell
Resarcius: Seals holes in the ground
Rexus Mundus: Creates a ship-attacking iceberg in the water
Riflettum: Creates a general shield
Segui Votro Testatum: Tracking spell, combining an element of the trackee with an element of the caster's sense
Solvos: Destroys a ward
Stregallum Finitas: Dismisses the sending of another caster
Tornarius: Reflects the momentum of another back to it
Ubriacha, Ubrius, Ubrium: Links a voodoo doll, as it were, to its intended real-life counterpart
Veni Che: A sort of wind-based levitation
Venteferro: Used to manipulate metal magnetically
Ventas Cyclis: Creates a cyclone of winds that can pick up objects hurling them at opponents
Ventas Fulmino: Funnels lightning through the caster to a target
Ventas Reductas: Small scale wind, like an electric blow-dryer
Ventas/Vento Servitas: generates wind
Ventas Veloche, Ubrium, Ubrium: Transforms liquid into fog
Vento Giostrus: generates a miniature cyclone
Vento Riflittum: reflects a projectile attack
Voce, Voco, Vocius: allows long distance communication when used with a special obsidian stone and a circle


Source:

Spells | harry-dresden

wntrknghtdresden.wixsite.com wntrknghtdresden.wixsite.com
List with book citations
So my apologies for the confusion.


2)I looked up their supporting citation; its the Cold Case short story, in a convo between Ramirez and Molly.
There doesnt seem to be any further citations one way or the other.
So I'll concede unless I can find some clarification from the author.
Artemis1992 said:
Hey, that means there's another powerful being with generally decent motives who is interested in reducing the influence of the Fey Courts on reality. Something to keep in mind.
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Worth recalling the Archive was allegedly mad for a long time.
I quote:
Her expression went still as the whole of her attention focused on me. "Is it?"
"Yes. She's a kid. She's alone. She's not some computer database, and it's inhuman to treat her like one."
"Yes," Luccio said bluntly. "It is. And it's also the safest way to deal with her."
"Safest for who?" I demanded.
Luccio took a sip of tea. "For everyone."
I frowned down at my cup. "Tell me."
She nodded. "The Archive…has been around for a long time. Always passed down in a family line, mother to daughter. Usually the Archive is inherited by a woman when she's in her early to mid-thirties, when her mother dies, and after she's given birth to her own daughter. Accidents are rare. Part of the Archive's nature is a drive to protect itself, a need to avoid exposing the person hosting it to risk. And given the extensive knowledge available to it, the Archive is very good at avoiding risky situations in the first place. And, should they arise, the power available to the Archive generally ensures its survival. It is extremely rare for the host of an Archive to die young."
I grunted. "Go on."
"When the Archive is passed…Harry, try to imagine living your life, with all of its triumphs and tragedies-and suddenly you find yourself with a second set of memories, every bit as real to you as your own. A second set of heartaches, loves, triumphs, losses. All of them just as real-and then a third. And a fourth. And a fifth. And more and more and more. The perfect memory, the absolute recall of every Archive that came before you. Five thousand years of them."
I blinked at that. "Hell's bells. That would…"
"Drive one insane," Luccio said. "Yes. And it generally does. There is a reason that the historical record for many soothsayers and oracles presents them as being madwomen. The Pythia, and many, many others, were simply the Archive, using her vast knowledge of the past to build models to predict the most probable future. She was a madwoman-but she was also the Archive.
"As a defense, the Archives began to distance themselves from other human beings, emotionally. They reasoned that if they could stop adding the weight of continuing lifetimes of experience and grief to the already immense burden of carrying so much knowledge, it might better enable them to function. And it did. The Archive keeps its host emotionally remote for a reason-because otherwise the passions and prejudices and hatreds and jealousies of thousands of lifetimes have the potential to distill themselves into a single being.
"Normally, an Archive would have her own lifetime of experience to insulate her against all these other emotions and memories, a baseline to contrast against them."
I suddenly got it. "But Ivy doesn't."
"Ivy doesn't," Luccio agreed. "Her grandmother was killed in a freak accident, an automobile crash, I believe. Her mother was a seventeen-year-old girl who was in love, and pregnant. She hated her mother for dying and cursing her to carry the Archive when she wanted to have her own life-and she hated the child for having a lifetime of freedom ahead of her. Ivy's mother killed herself rather than carry the Archive."
I started feeling a little sick. "And Ivy knows it."
"She does. Knows it, feels it. She was born knowing exactly what her mother thought and felt about her."
"How could you know this about her…" I frowned, thinking. Then said, "Kincaid. The girl was in love with Kincaid."
"No," Luccio said. "But Kincaid was working for Ivy's grandmother at the time, and the girl confided in him."
"Man, that's screwed up," I said.
"Ivy has remained distant her whole life," Luccio said. "If she begins to involve her own emotions in her duties as the Archive, or in her life generally, she runs the serious risk of being overwhelmed with emotions and passions which she simply is not-and cannot be-psychologically equipped to handle."
"You're afraid that she could go out of control."
"The Archive was created to be a neutral force. A repository of knowledge. But what if Ivy's unique circumstance allowed her to ignore those limitations? Imagine the results of the anger and bitterness and desire for revenge of all those lifetimes, combined with the power of the Archive and the restraint of a twelve-year-old child."
"I'd rather not," I said quietly.
There are good reasons why I would not assume the competence of her forbears to make judgements outside of the directives that were hardcoded into the Archive then to fight the Oblivion War.

Yog said:
It's never the same book. The book doesn't exist (yet). It's yet to be truly written. Basically, my point is that we might want to generally be prepared for it to be encountered, possibly with progressively more powerful / complete versions appearing as we become more powerful.
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In Kindred of the East lore, BWC is basically a honeytrap for subverting vampires and the like, and the Yama Kings get to act with mostly impunity because there isnt anyone to gainsay them.

Dresden cosmology does not really support those kinds of shenanigans.
The Yama Kings are really, really not the big dogs in this setting; Usum's personal recollection is of an ambitious Yama King's forces getting bodied by the Winter Fae.

And Heaven is not empty here.

There definitely is a big G in heaven with activist angels and archangels, and He is very big on Free Will, and has the power and will to force everyone else to care about it too.
I have my doubts about something like BWC being allowed to exist. Even the Denarian coins are hedged around with restrictions.

And the White Council handled the Necronomicon iirc.

Yog said:
There's no Great Curse, so benevolent eternal Golden Deliberative is absolutely possible. And exalted did more than defend Creation against Wyld. They aggressively expanded and creation-formed the outer chaos.

So, yes, releasing the exalted host after making sure our side is prepared to snag the new exalts and unite them around our banner is absolutely a win condition for the world.
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What @Yzarc said.
Exaltations do not care about moral character, and humans are quite capable of evil on their own just fine.
 
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uju32 said:
What @Yzarc said.
Exaltations do not care about moral character, and humans are quite capable of evil on their own just fine.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Even setting that aside; looking at the ExWoD fluff for abyssals, it seems like they are also in the black vault.

So opening it would probably end in the outsiders getting exalt support to match the new solars, creating a chaotic mess no one is prepared for.
 
uju32 said:
1)The Archive is neither perfect nor allknowing. Its a magical library/librarian and hardcoded AI embodied in the body of a woman.
We are talking about the same entity that spent several decades, if not centuries, playing the part of various prophets snd soothsayers for some reason, using old knowledge to make predictive models of the future.

While allegedly mad.

I have no trouble believing that one of her ancestors might have tried something like this.
We dont know how the mental status of the host would have affected the functioning of the greater Archive entity.
Especially back in the old days when written records were nowhere as widespread as they are now.


2)The true Venators are organized in cells.
Its literally impossible for them to attempt to execute any type of widespread policy without the Archive's direction and coordination because they dont know who most of the other Venators are.

If Outsiders corrupted a cell, it would have zero impact on the greater organization's policy because thats set by the Archive, who would just cut that cell off and point the White Council or some other heavy hitters at them.


1)Because I mispoke.

Its not pig Latin, or at least not just pig Latin, because flickum bicus is definitely pig Latin.
Its also dog Latin, and plain Latin. He also uses Italian and Spanish for a thorough mishmash of source languages
Spells Used by Dresden:

Aparturum: opens a way to the Never Never
Appare: summons demons
Aquilevatus: creates a curtain of water
Arctis: freezing/ice
Assantius: Erupts with kinetic force
Defendarius: Produces a sphere shaped shield of blue energy
Disperdorius: Disperses, fractures dangerous energy
Dispertius: Creates a crack/hole in the ground
Dormius, Dorme: used to put someone into a dreamless sleep
Duo Et Unum: tracking spell
Feniculus Sonitus: eavesdropping spell
Flickum Bicus: small fires -- lighting candles, and other small scale fires.
Flammamurus: super-heats the ground below, and causes magma to burst forth from the ground
Fortius: Fortified Harry with renewed strength and energy when touching silver buckle
Forzare: creates a push of force
Fuego: destructive fire attack
Fulminos/Fulminas: generates or redirects a bolt of lightning
Galvinius: Used with copper chain focus as a kind of taser
Geodas: Creates a sinkhole
Gravitus: Concentrates gravity
Hexus: A minor damaging of electrical equipment
Ignus, Infusiarus: Ignites a small floating ball of flame like a tiny sun
Illumina Magnus: Highlighted a message written in magic-tainted water by sending copper filings to attach to it
Infriga; Infriga Forzare: Sucks fire/heat away from a given area, creating ice
Interessari, Interressarium: Tracking spell, with blood and a compass
Laqueus: Cord of pure force with soulfire, glitters and flashes: a supernatural garote
Lumen, Camerus, Factum: Creates a holomantic illusion of anybody; illusions are mostly opaque
Malivaso: Destroys a piece of technology
Memoratum, Defendre Memorarius: A memory charm for defense
Noctus Ex Illuminus: Illusions
Obscurata: Veil
Pulitas: Cleaning spell using a piece of straw from the broom, creates sweeping brooms
Pyro Fuego: Larger destructive fire attack; dense bar of blue-white fire, so dense almost solid like a spear
Reperios, Invenios: Chant used in tracking spell
Resarcius: Seals holes in the ground
Rexus Mundus: Creates a ship-attacking iceberg in the water
Riflettum: Creates a general shield
Segui Votro Testatum: Tracking spell, combining an element of the trackee with an element of the caster's sense
Solvos: Destroys a ward
Stregallum Finitas: Dismisses the sending of another caster
Tornarius: Reflects the momentum of another back to it
Ubriacha, Ubrius, Ubrium: Links a voodoo doll, as it were, to its intended real-life counterpart
Veni Che: A sort of wind-based levitation
Venteferro: Used to manipulate metal magnetically
Ventas Cyclis: Creates a cyclone of winds that can pick up objects hurling them at opponents
Ventas Fulmino: Funnels lightning through the caster to a target
Ventas Reductas: Small scale wind, like an electric blow-dryer
Ventas/Vento Servitas: generates wind
Ventas Veloche, Ubrium, Ubrium: Transforms liquid into fog
Vento Giostrus: generates a miniature cyclone
Vento Riflittum: reflects a projectile attack
Voce, Voco, Vocius: allows long distance communication when used with a special obsidian stone and a circle


Source:

Spells | harry-dresden

wntrknghtdresden.wixsite.com wntrknghtdresden.wixsite.com
List with book citations
So my apologies for the confusion.


2)I looked up their supporting citation; its the Cold Case short story, in a convo between Ramirez and Molly.
There doesnt seem to be any further citations one way or the other.
So I'll concede unless I can find some clarification from the author.

Worth recalling the Archive was allegedly mad for a long time.
I quote:
Her expression went still as the whole of her attention focused on me. "Is it?"
"Yes. She's a kid. She's alone. She's not some computer database, and it's inhuman to treat her like one."
"Yes," Luccio said bluntly. "It is. And it's also the safest way to deal with her."
"Safest for who?" I demanded.
Luccio took a sip of tea. "For everyone."
I frowned down at my cup. "Tell me."
She nodded. "The Archive…has been around for a long time. Always passed down in a family line, mother to daughter. Usually the Archive is inherited by a woman when she's in her early to mid-thirties, when her mother dies, and after she's given birth to her own daughter. Accidents are rare. Part of the Archive's nature is a drive to protect itself, a need to avoid exposing the person hosting it to risk. And given the extensive knowledge available to it, the Archive is very good at avoiding risky situations in the first place. And, should they arise, the power available to the Archive generally ensures its survival. It is extremely rare for the host of an Archive to die young."
I grunted. "Go on."
"When the Archive is passed…Harry, try to imagine living your life, with all of its triumphs and tragedies-and suddenly you find yourself with a second set of memories, every bit as real to you as your own. A second set of heartaches, loves, triumphs, losses. All of them just as real-and then a third. And a fourth. And a fifth. And more and more and more. The perfect memory, the absolute recall of every Archive that came before you. Five thousand years of them."
I blinked at that. "Hell's bells. That would…"
"Drive one insane," Luccio said. "Yes. And it generally does. There is a reason that the historical record for many soothsayers and oracles presents them as being madwomen. The Pythia, and many, many others, were simply the Archive, using her vast knowledge of the past to build models to predict the most probable future. She was a madwoman-but she was also the Archive.
"As a defense, the Archives began to distance themselves from other human beings, emotionally. They reasoned that if they could stop adding the weight of continuing lifetimes of experience and grief to the already immense burden of carrying so much knowledge, it might better enable them to function. And it did. The Archive keeps its host emotionally remote for a reason-because otherwise the passions and prejudices and hatreds and jealousies of thousands of lifetimes have the potential to distill themselves into a single being.
"Normally, an Archive would have her own lifetime of experience to insulate her against all these other emotions and memories, a baseline to contrast against them."
I suddenly got it. "But Ivy doesn't."
"Ivy doesn't," Luccio agreed. "Her grandmother was killed in a freak accident, an automobile crash, I believe. Her mother was a seventeen-year-old girl who was in love, and pregnant. She hated her mother for dying and cursing her to carry the Archive when she wanted to have her own life-and she hated the child for having a lifetime of freedom ahead of her. Ivy's mother killed herself rather than carry the Archive."
I started feeling a little sick. "And Ivy knows it."
"She does. Knows it, feels it. She was born knowing exactly what her mother thought and felt about her."
"How could you know this about her…" I frowned, thinking. Then said, "Kincaid. The girl was in love with Kincaid."
"No," Luccio said. "But Kincaid was working for Ivy's grandmother at the time, and the girl confided in him."
"Man, that's screwed up," I said.
"Ivy has remained distant her whole life," Luccio said. "If she begins to involve her own emotions in her duties as the Archive, or in her life generally, she runs the serious risk of being overwhelmed with emotions and passions which she simply is not-and cannot be-psychologically equipped to handle."
"You're afraid that she could go out of control."
"The Archive was created to be a neutral force. A repository of knowledge. But what if Ivy's unique circumstance allowed her to ignore those limitations? Imagine the results of the anger and bitterness and desire for revenge of all those lifetimes, combined with the power of the Archive and the restraint of a twelve-year-old child."
"I'd rather not," I said quietly.
There are good reasons why I would not assume the competence of her forbears to make judgements outside of the directives that were hardcoded into the Archive then to fight the Oblivion War.


In Kindred of the East lore, BWC is basically a honeytrap for subverting vampires and the like, and the Yama Kings get to act with mostly impunity because there isnt anyone to gainsay them.

Dresden cosmology does not really support those kinds of shenanigans.
The Yama Kings are really, really not the big dogs in this setting; Usum's personal recollection is of an ambitious Yama King's forces getting bodied by the Winter Fae.

And Heaven is not empty here.

There definitely is a big G in heaven with activist angels and archangels, and He is very big on Free Will, and has the power and will to force everyone else to care about it too.
I have my doubts about something like BWC being allowed to exist. Even the Denarian coins are hedged around with restrictions.

And the White Council handled the Necronomicon iirc.


What @Yzarc said.
Exaltations do not care about moral character, and humans are quite capable of evil on their own just fine.
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Gatekeeper handled the necrinomicon or at least its creator. Though gatekeepers fuck old even by white council standards.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Even setting that aside; looking at the ExWoD fluff for abyssals, it seems like they are also in the black vault.

So opening it would probably end in the outsiders getting exalt support to match the new solars, creating a chaotic mess no one is prepared for.
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Click to shrink...
Abyssals do not need to support Outsiders. A classical type of an abyssal character is "protector of the wronged dead". And the golden glory is much closer to the surface of an abyssal exaltation than it is for infernal ones. It's even mechanically indicated.
uju32 said:
What @Yzarc said.
Exaltations do not care about moral character, and humans are quite capable of evil on their own just fine.
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Click to shrink...
And on the balance, especially with preparations, I choose to believe that this will be a huge net benefit, and that human society can work, and that superhumans, being human but more, will be a net benefit for the world.

EDIT: Also, at least solar exaltations in ExvsWoD explicitly come with the command / request / motivation of "find others. Save the world". It's in the book.
 
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Yog said:
Abyssals do not need to support Outsiders. A classical type of an abyssal character is "protector of the wronged dead". And the golden glory is much closer to the surface of an abyssal exaltation than it is for infernal ones. It's even mechanically indicated.
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They can rebel, but that's not what they are on a fundamental level.

Here's the very first thing said about them in their section of the book:
Abyssal Exaltation is nothing more and nothing less than a bullet fired at the heart of the cosmos thou- sands years ago. Since the opening of the Black Vault, it is once more in motion, finding individuals of great potential cut tragically short and transforming them into agents of extinction.
In the Time of Legends the Abyssal Exalted were the students and slaves of powers older, darker, and mightier still, but those hoary ghosts are long since lost to Oblivion. Now annihilation's children bow be- fore their new-crowned kings, heaping adoration upon them and urging them to take up their historical man- tle and end the world.
The Red Star looks down from the heavens like the baleful eye of God... and trembles at what it sees unleashed upon the World of Darkness.
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Rebelling it hard, and carries a lot of painful struggle with it. The people picked by Abyssal exaltations aren't exactly inclined to compassion either.

The redemption archetype exists so players can engage if they don't want to larp as omnicidal maniacs, but the core group is supposed to work like that. Risen Abyssals are basically the Drizzt of exalted in that way.

My bet would be that releasing them would result in a vast majority being traditional Abyssals and not the kinder sort.
 
BronzeTongue said:
They can rebel, but that's not what they are on a fundamental level.

Here's the very first thing said about them in their section of the book:

Rebelling it hard, and carries a lot of painful struggle with it. The people picked by Abyssal exaltations aren't exactly inclined to compassion either.

The redemption archetype exists so players can engage if they don't want to larp as omnicidal maniacs, but the core group is supposed to work like that. Risen Abyssals are basically the Drizzt of exalted in that way.

My bet would be that releasing them would result in a vast majority being traditional Abyssals and not the kinder sort.
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There's not really the same push towards doing evil as there was back in creation.

Just like our Exaltation has also lost most means of driving us to the Yozi's goals.
There's no Torment and far fewer Charms with mental influence on the Exalted in our current set than back in Creation.

It's really easy for Abyssals today to be decent, though kinda edgy people.
No Neverborn to whisper, no Deathlords to push you into service and much less curse/resonance.
 
BronzeTongue said:
They can rebel, but that's not what they are on a fundamental level.

Here's the very first thing said about them in their section of the book:

Rebelling it hard, and carries a lot of painful struggle with it. The people picked by Abyssal exaltations aren't exactly inclined to compassion either.

The redemption archetype exists so players can engage if they don't want to larp as omnicidal maniacs, but the core group is supposed to work like that. Risen Abyssals are basically the Drizzt of exalted in that way.

My bet would be that releasing them would result in a vast majority being traditional Abyssals and not the kinder sort.
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And yet, canon example of an ExvsWoD abyssal is Skull Girl, who is working together with a Solar under direction of a Sidereal, on the side of angels as it was. And let's see who gets to be an abyssal:
Deathknights and warrior-poets who long ago led
and championed the armies of the dead. Dusks are
drawn from the ranks of those with blood on their
hands, and were often soldiers, underground fighters,
legbreakers, or others who hurt and killed others to
survive before their Exaltation.
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Soldier is a perfectly respectable profession, if they are a part of a respectable army.
Deadspeakers, death cultists, and dark messiahs
who long ago built ancestor cults and promoted the
rulership of the dead over the living. Midnights often
come from the ranks of nihilistic philosophers, anarchists,
protestors, and those otherwise focused on the
downfall of prevailing societies.
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Revolutions happen. A rebel against an oppressive regime might well be someone fighting for the better world.
Necromancers and dread savants who raised the
dead to march against the living. Daybreaks are drawn
from the ranks of twisted geniuses, mad scientists, delvers
into forbidden wisdom, profilers of serial killers, and
others whose do not fear what they find in the dark.
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Yeah, ok. Cole is definitely going to become one if they are released before he's been dealt with. That's an issue. But in general, see "profilers of serial killers". "Those who do not fear what they find in the dark" - I am betting at least some venatori are going to exalt.
Infiltrators, spies, and saboteurs who walked
among the living to deliver them into the arms of the
dead. Days are drawn from the ranks of those who live
outside the acceptable bounds of society.
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Yeah, ok, I'll give you this one.
Diplomats and advocates for those who lack the
breath to speak for themselves, they forged kingdoms
and customs to connect the living and the dead. Moonshadows
are drawn from the ranks of poets and power-
brokers: artists, analysts, lawyers, CEOs, and the like.
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This one redeems the previous one. It's basically a positive archetype.
And then there's Unconquered Hero's Faith.

What I am saying is that if we make preparations. If we, and ideally no one else know that it's going to be opened, and are positioned to take advantage of it, then opening the Black Vault is going to be a net positive. And even if we are not, then Solars, Lunars and Sidereals working with the help of Heavens should bring more good to the world than Abyssals and Infernals evil.
 
Ok, let's have a go at this.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 6, 2022 at 9:40 AM, finished with 120 posts and 23 votes.
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Artemis1992 said:
Hey, that means there's another powerful being with generally decent motives who is interested in reducing the influence of the Fey Courts on reality.

Something to keep in mind.
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It's long past the point where that would be even remotely viable to attempt.

I mean, imagine trying to delete all depictions of fey from the internet. Then add all depictions of Fey in book, movies, and art.
In fact, you might as well go the extra mile and try eliminating the word "fairy" from existence.

You'd need to be able to casually censor the planet. And you'd have to be able to do it for a couple generations.
It's not really viable in the likely span of this quest.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 6, 2022 at 9:40 AM, finished with 120 posts and 23 votes.
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Arc 2 Post 51: Hell Hath No Fury
  • Threadmarks
    • Hell Hath No Fury ​

    22st of July 2006 A.D.

    One gun had been silenced, the other sings again like thunder underground. lucky for you spite makes for poor aim, gouging concrete shattering glass, but the worst you get is a face full of grit. It's gonna take hours to wash this out of my hair, you think petty rage piling atop the great, you strike with malice and you strike with mastery... and you are met with both.

    Katrina Sigfridsdaughter fights with an arming sword in her left hand and it is no less deadly for it, oily black like a serpent is slides though the air meeting your own blade with quenching darkness, blow and counter, blow and counter. The world narrows to the point and the edge of that blade. Even as Gard and Capricorpus rage around you you can barely hear them, can hardly feel the touch of death's cold wind on your flesh.

    Blow and... a there, a fraction of a second out of time, her guard a bit too high for her own good, you feint low pulling the sword too far down and to the left forcing the error to widen and then you slash, your full weight behind the blow, and more than your weight. As you had done against the fetch you awaken the fire in the blade and like some all devouring parasite you pass it into the wound. There is kindles.

    Veins of primordial fire race from the wound, coiling through flesh, seen even through the armor. The look on the fallen warrior's face is not rage, it is not even pain, just vast and all-encompassing surprise.

    "No"

    "No"

    "No"

    Her denial booms louder than the roar of the canons not in the ear but in the mind "I have seen my death and this is not the way!"

    A white hot rune explodes in the center of her chest, like the symbol of infinity carved in splintered edges, a mark you know without knowing means 'day', the bright time, the coming of the sun and you feel sheer fury to see it so defiled, knitting back together that which you had broken, giving a traitor back her wretched life to work more evil upon the world, more children screaming, more hapless bystanders hung by their entrails like macabre puppets and all for what.... for what?

    Because she had been promised by some evil even greater than her? Because fate?

    "Be damned all fates!" you think it, you say it... something at the core of your power, something old and vicious, something sublime and perfect answers.

    The world feels light and fluttering, as though all were made of gossamer and you the only solid thing as you whisper under your breath:"Shin.Tai."

    Your heart beats faster and faster like some brass engine of extinction pumping out not blood but all consuming flame within as it is without. In blazing brass and pitch-black basalt you are garbed, upon your brow a crown of Ruin and Glory, in semblance and in mockery both of a thousand profane idols.


    To your right Gard duels the Capricorpus, rune carved axe trying to prune the every fecund ectoplasmic form writhing and shifting screaming curses and whispering blandishments from a thousand mouths, to your left Harry's fire almost sputters in in his hands in sheer shock at what you had done? What I've become?

    "What you are,"     Usum helpfully informs you

    Matthews you notice had crawled towards the exit, when you dropped him, trying to get out of everyone's way. Only Lydia is both looking towards the fight and not the least troubled by what she sees, trying to take advantage of Katrina's distraction to sneak in another punch, alas time moves against her and so the foe manages to move out of the way.

    Time moves against you as well....but it does her little good. If you had been fast before than now you are the vengeful wind howling out of some nightmare realm. Hel, that is what they called the realm of the dishonored dead in the north even before the missionaries had come.

    "Time's up," you proclaim in a voice colder than the depths of space.

    Her right hand rises on instinct to parry a blow too fast for her sword to reach.... only to be sliced off cleanly at the wrist.

    "Hel comes for you."

    A traitor and a monster she may be, but Katrina is not a coward. She lunges one last time to press the stump of her hand against you as you feel the warp and weft of time trying to snare you, like a fly in amber.

    Too little... too late, your sword falls in one final arc, splitting her head from her shoulders.

    Yet even as it falls you see the submarine fire again, this time not at you or Lydia but at Harry. Even as he raises a hand shield bracelet shinning blue you know it will not be enough, that it cannot be enough. You open your mouth to call a vain warning when...

    The space between Harry and the Uboat ripples like a pond in a high wind and the shell vanishes.. A gate made into a shield, you realize with wonder.

    There is a man standing where the stone altar had been, silver of hair and heard, though you can still see traces of black in it. He is wearing an old fashioned suit and round gold-rimmed glasses that obscure the exact color of his eyes. You know who he is even before you hear Lydia gasp: "Papa!"


    "Lydia... what are you...?" He cuts himself off and turns towards Capricorpus, who seems to have taken the moment to choose the better part of valor again.

    Lost 2 Essence and 2 Willpower (+2 Essence gained from various secrets discovered)

    What do you do next?

    [] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now

    [] Focus on finishing off that sub

    [] Write in

    OOC: I put the expenses at the end because I did not want to break up the flow of the narrative at your first use of Shintai, hope you guys enjoy.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • [X] Write in
    - [X] Use the Crown of Eyes to learn the Capricorpus' mortal name, and whatever else it can tell you besides.
    - [X] Then Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now

    This is really, really important. With that name we can can use Iron Shades Binding to call them up and bind them. Extracting the details about their knowledge of the Black Council and the secrets of necromancy would be very useful.
     
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    DragonParadox said:
    "I promised to find him than summon Mab as soon as I am able with the news,"
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    [X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now

    [X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
    -[X][Stunt]     With speed you knew not you had you sprint across the ruins of the display cases, glass cracking under your feet.
    -[X][Stunt] "And so he found the Ankou and will call the Cold Queen as soon as he is able," your voice calls out coldly standing over his battered body, "fulfilling the letters of his bargain."
     
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    Alratan said:
    [X] Write in
    - [X] Use the Crown of Eyes to learn the Capricorpus' mortal name, and whatever else it can tell you besides.
    - [X] Then Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now

    This is really, really important. With that name we can can use Iron Shades Binding to call them up and bind them. Extracting the details about their knowledge of the Black Council and the secrets of necromancy would be very useful.
    Click to expand...
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    Do we have that.
     
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