Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Location
- washington
because they don't even have souls by dresden files canon anymore their no longer mortal we explicitly are mortal there's a big difference. Mab was fucking mortal too and is no longer mortal. Well mollys at least in the process of losing her soul in canon.
Also I said mortal rules should apply not that they don't clearly have many ceveats and sub rules. We should still count as mortal.
Edit: Also exalting isn't even a mantle and mantles can be used by mortals mind you depending on the mantle. Anyways don't use lily or maeve as an example as their explicitly no longer human at all.
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- Location
- Germany
Hey, that's the first time you didn't say that out abduction was not just Fetches being Fetches but part of Mab's schemes.
I would blame her either way, regardless of the actions of Fetches are part of her plans or merely a part of their nature that she never managed to bind or change in roughly 800 years of rulership.
A monarch is responsible for the deeds of her subjects to a degree at least.
Part of your own quote by the way.
As I read it Mab can't be harmed by Fey-on-Fey attacks, at least as long as she is Queen and has authority over the proposed attackers.
A mortal has better odds.
A mortal with the power to emulate the Primordials of ancient times could eventually grow strong enough to go from non-zero chance into a decent chance.
1)Do you think the Archive does not have a soul? Susan does not have a soul? Thomas does not have a soul?
Denarians do not have souls?
That Molly's soul vanished when she became Winter Lady in canon?
2)Fae dont have human souls. Not the same thing.
Winter Lady Molly apparently explictly states her soul is intermingled with the Winter Mantle in Peace Talks,which is why she doesnt trigger soulgazes. The primary PoV of DF is Dresden, whose knowledge is incomplete and sometimes wrong.
3)In Dresdenverse terms, an Exaltation shard IS a Mantle.
Hard or impossible to destroy, independent existence, is inherited by other people who meet the criteria if the current holder dies.
Molly's kidnapping in Proven Guilty canon and here is a scheme.
We know Nemesis has subverted elements of the Winter Court at this point, so we cant be sure who. And its apparently stated as a rule in Summer Knight that the Winter Queen and Winter Lady cannot interfere with each other.
So if Maeve set it up, Mab wouldnt be able to stop it.
But we know that in canon Mab was there when Dresden and the others were leaving. She was one of the statues, the one that winked.
And then, just as I was leaving, only for an instant, I thought I saw one more thing. The triangle of statues of Sidhe noblewomen caught a stray beam of moonlight, while thin clouds made it jump and shift. In that uncertain light, I saw one of the statues move. It turned its head toward me as I left, and the white marble of its eyes was suddenly suffused with emerald green the same color as Mab's eyes.
Not just the same color.
Mab's eyes.
The statue winked at me.
The sounds of the approaching fae grew even louder, reminding me that I had no time to investigate. So I shivered and hurried down the stairs beside Thomas, leaving the parapet and its prisoners and-perhaps-its mistress behind me. I had to focus on getting us back to Lily's rift in one piece, so I forced all such questions from my mind for the time being.
Not just the same color.
Mab's eyes.
The statue winked at me.
The sounds of the approaching fae grew even louder, reminding me that I had no time to investigate. So I shivered and hurried down the stairs beside Thomas, leaving the parapet and its prisoners and-perhaps-its mistress behind me. I had to focus on getting us back to Lily's rift in one piece, so I forced all such questions from my mind for the time being.
Or poison in time delay.
Ergo our survival, at least, is one of her schemes.
There remains no evidence that our kidnapping was at Mab's direction.
Just that she permitted our escape.
You misunderstand it.
Fey on Fey attacks can hurt Mab just fine. IF they have sufficient power. That's literally the job of the Summer Queen.
Titania's job supposed to stop Mab as necessary, up to and including killing her if she can.
And we see Winter Knight Harry threaten her in Cold Days, so Court allegiance is no protection.
The quote is that all of those people combined do not represent enough power to seriously inconvenience her.
The Erl King, who is King of Summer, with the backing of multiple Denarians and Outsiders, and Mab would take them all on solo and splatter them without taking a scratch.
But highlevel Fae in their right mind do not attack each other outside of carefully managed situations like around the Stone Table.
Its not in their nature. So it doesnt matter how powerful Fae get, if they wont attack.
Usually they play proxy games
However humans can and do, even with no chance of success.
So they have a marginally higher chance of achieving something compared to those who can but wont.
Its not a power thing.
- Location
- washington
I said them not the others. no shit the others have souls and fairly sure mantles are relatively 'newer' like their not forged by autochthon they obviously are different. given mantles could of been made in exalted image there is zero way they are the same though.
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On the subject of knocking Harry out - how does it actually help the situation, even if it works? Harry would still be obligated to call Mab after finding Ankou. And even if Ankou escapes with Lydia, Harry would still be obligated to search for him.
And if we somehow transfer the mantle without Harry's help, it only weakens Ankou's position. Right now he has something Mab wants - the mantle. He also has Kemmler's knowledge of mortality, with Mab would either want gone, so it can't be given to her other subjects, or to be given to her, so she could use it as a tool to produce free-er agents. And he has himself, upon whom Mab, for entirely pragmatic reasons, wants and needs to take revenge. By transferring a mantle to others, Ankou's position weakens, not strengthens. Mab would still want revenge and would still need Kemmler's knowledge to be contained / destroyed.
And if we somehow transfer the mantle without Harry's help, it only weakens Ankou's position. Right now he has something Mab wants - the mantle. He also has Kemmler's knowledge of mortality, with Mab would either want gone, so it can't be given to her other subjects, or to be given to her, so she could use it as a tool to produce free-er agents. And he has himself, upon whom Mab, for entirely pragmatic reasons, wants and needs to take revenge. By transferring a mantle to others, Ankou's position weakens, not strengthens. Mab would still want revenge and would still need Kemmler's knowledge to be contained / destroyed.
Similar, but very much not the same. Like mortal magical power and essence, in a way. Like a star and a nuclear bomb.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly, in the crossover universe, I think the original Mantles were created as pale imitations of Exaltations. Imitations that allowed their creators to have control over the holder of the Mantle, specifically. They're nowhere near as good, because they weren't made by The Great Maker as his masterpiece but by someone trying to crib off of his work, but there's enough similarities that they're obviously inspired by Exaltations, even if to the degree of a small child with a crayon trying to copy a renaissance master.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
Tch. I don't like it, but with time to reflect on it I have been convinced to flip my vote.
[X] Focus on finishing off that sub
I still worry that this may result in Harry or Lydia getting hurt in a way that could have been avoided, but I guess I can accept that it's too dangerous to do now and a solution by other means may still be found. I kind of wish we could have planned this better out in advance. With our crown and power I would like to go into a confrontation already knowing all the moving parts and having planned an exact solution, but I guess we had to get to the fight sometime.
[X] Focus on finishing off that sub
I still worry that this may result in Harry or Lydia getting hurt in a way that could have been avoided, but I guess I can accept that it's too dangerous to do now and a solution by other means may still be found. I kind of wish we could have planned this better out in advance. With our crown and power I would like to go into a confrontation already knowing all the moving parts and having planned an exact solution, but I guess we had to get to the fight sometime.
My point is simply this:
The current Archive is a mortal girl. Mortal enough for the Denarians to attempt to give her a Fallen coin. Also by showing at least as powerful as the Winter or Summer Lady. Dresden says more powerful.
The Archive is not Fae or aligned to a fae court, and is neutral.
Yet we see hobs stage an attack on her train at the Chicago train station. This suggests that mortal heritage does not provide mortal protections above a threshold of power
Not all Exaltations are created equal. There's tiers of power.
Similarly, not all Mantles are created equal either.
In my opinion anyway.
I would not be surprised if you were right, and someone basically took an Exaltation shard's design and used the basic concept to create the Mantles we see. Just with a lot more restrictions in the design, because noone wants a bunch of autonomous godkiller shards running around.
Dresdenverse Earth is a death world, but its nowhere as bad as Creation.
- Location
- Germany
There are some fundamental differences between Exaltations and Mantles though.
The primary one is free will.
An Exaltation will never bind the mortal it is attached to. It might change their nature somewhat, through the Great Curse or in case of Infernals with some Charms altering their mindset, but fundamentally Exaltations are meant to make you more of what you are, not something different.
That's obviously not true for Mantles.
The second is in compatibility.
A mantle can be attached to a full Wizard who remains a Wizard with extras (see Dresden or Molly), or it can be given to a God who remains a God with extras (see Odin or Arawn).
So mechanically its more like a template that can be added to an existing character, rather than the very base of their powerset. Besides it changes the part that Exaltations were meant for humans only, since those were the only being not bound not to act against the Primordials.
That doesn't make Mantles better or worse than Exaltations, but sufficiently different that I don't think they are really related besides maybe one inspiring the other.
- Location
- my house
I don't think that's true. He is obligated to gind Ankou, then inform Mab if the location as soon as he can. Nowhere is it stated that he is required to keep Ankou there long enough for Mab to arrive, or track Ankou down again if Mab can't get there fast enough to catch him. Given "knock him out to prevent this" is a plan the QM provided to us, I'm inclined to believe it would work
- Location
- Earth
We know the wording of what Mab ordered Harry to do.
He has just found Arawn and now has to do the second part: Summon Mab as soon as he is able.
We knock him out and "as soon as he is able" will be when he wakes. When Arawn and Lydia are long gone.
He'll have fulfilled what Mab ordered.
He won't be obligated to look for them again.
Mantles are different in the following:
1) They are destructible. Each and every one of them is. Exaltations aren't. Full stop. Uriel, perhaps (likely) even White God at their full power wouldn't be able to desrtoy them. Bind them, hold them, change them, yes. Destroy them? No.
2) They bind their users. Exaltations don't. This is a very specific design issue made so Primordials couldn't win the war exaltations were made for. Mantles compel their holders to work under specific laws.
3) Most importantly, mantles are static. They don't allow for unlimited (or nearly so) growth. An exalt will, with time, equal the greatest of immortals. The Devil Tigers' roars will shake the universe in their Triumph. The shining of golden kings will be brighter than that of the Sun himself. Mantle bearers will remain mantle bearers.
Mantles are probably inspired by Exaltations. They likely were created when the memories of the time of glories still existed. But they are not the same at all, when you start digging. They are not meant to shake the world order. They are meant to preserve it.
He can't just tell Mab "this is where Ankou was X hours ago". If he could, then he could have given Mab Lydia's home address. The order he's working under is very much intended as "bring Mab and Ankou into the same room". If at the time of summoning Harry doesn't know where Ankou is, he isn't fulfilling the "find him" part of the deal. He can't give Mab directions to Ankou.
- Location
- Earth
He damn well can and does.
Fae orders work by letter not intent.
This is after all what they use to get the better on you, it's only fair to turn it around on them.
- Location
- Germany
Minor note, could you differentiate between Permanent and temporary willpower here?
It looks kinda weird this way, like Molly has a lot less will than she's supposed to have.
I guess the risk that everyone forgets her permanent score is 9 is rather low, but still.
Sure I'll add in a temp rating.
Ok, it looks like after considerable conversation we are going for the sub, not preventative wizard punching.
Mab can teleport to a summoner if she so chooses.
The issue, as I've pointed out, is that none of that is a solution to the problem of Lydia and Arawn.
You cant keep running around the globe if the Winter Queen changes policy and seriously wants you dead or captured.
Morgan barely survived a manhunt by the White Council by going to Dresden, and that was just the wizards.
If your primary concern is Lydia, you'd try to get a negotiated settlement before Mab loses patience and just puts a price on his head to return his Mantle to her custody.
If you dont care, just call Mab and wash your hands off it.
You really do not want to play legal games with the queen of air and darkness.
Mab has played pretty straight with Dresden so far.
She hasnt fucked with him like she could, she's given him jobs and gotten out of the way, she's even provided information in Lea's place when his godmother was unavailable.
Dresden really does not want to give any reason for that to change, and both Bob and Lash would warn him against your suggested course of action.
Just color it. Like this:
Willpower 5/9: ●●●●●●●●●
Winning Vote
Arc 2 Post 52: Grand Theft Submarine
Grand Theft Submarine
22st of July 2006 A.D.
It would be so easy, the thought passes through your mind at the speed of a lightning flash, run over to Harry knock him out then deal with the Uboat and Harry does not have to choose to break his word to Mab, but then your heart catches up with your mind. Is that what Harry would want, to have the choice taken from him? The answer is as obvious as the stubborn set of his jaw as he contemplates the rogue death god. He does not say anything.
"We shall have to burn that bridge when we come to it," you hear Usum say with an edge of dark amusement as you pivot towards the sub .
The the water rises aver higher around you, the searchlights blinding as they glare upon you, a behemoth of steel and malice looking down upon an ant so you jump.
Alas it is not near as graceful as it had been in your head, between the bad footing, not being used to your new strength and how hard it is to judge distances in this light you almost smash against the side of the ship, needing to clamber up painfully, at least until you hear the thump of someone managing to jump on the deck and a hand stretches up.
"Here," Lydia helps you up. "You know that's really cool, it's almost like a magi..."
"Don't say it." The laughter bubbling up in your chest, wild and fierce rather undercuts the warning.
"I'm gonna think it anyway," she quips, though the moment's levity does not last long as the sub heaves underfoot with a groan of steel shifting, the screech of sliding on concrete.
Faster and faster the water gurgles in... and now to your horror you realize from where, not any earthly realm, but the Nevernever. The spirit is trying to get away with the whole submarine.
"Lydia!" you shout as the girl is already smashing into the last remaining gun, silver-shrouded flesh against ectoplasmatic armament. "It's trying to..."
Diving
The single word in a voice at once familiar and strange echoes through the wide hall, a threat and a challenge all at once. You know now what is animating the submarine, Bob's darker self is here and contrary to what the spirit had said he does not seem to be inclined to subtlety.
"I can get us back out of the spirit world, we can take it!" Lydia shouts back
Somehow you do not think her father would approve. Looking down at the battle you cannot see the shade form of the Capricorpus anymore, but both Harry and Arawn seem to be looking for something under the now waist high water while Gard is drawing runes upon the air, many more of them than you had seen from her before
You have Three (3) turns before the Uboat maakes the transition to some otherwrold sea
What do you do?
[] Enter the possessed sub in order to break enough of it to expel the dark spirit
[] Jump back off, he does not have any guns left and is just trying to run, you do not want to get on Evil Bob's Nevernever Ride
[] Write in
OOC: Really short update, but given the nature of Evil Bob's escape plan I need a vote here.
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[X] Enter the possessed sub in order to break enough of it to expel the dark spirit
If we remove Lydia from the equation, Mab can't blackmail her with her father's life. By taking Lydia with us into NeverNever, we remove her from the scene. This is the ideal solution. Harry can take it from there.
If we remove Lydia from the equation, Mab can't blackmail her with her father's life. By taking Lydia with us into NeverNever, we remove her from the scene. This is the ideal solution. Harry can take it from there.
- Location
- Germany
What exactly did you roll here?
Ours looks like DEX + Athletics, which is huge due to the Shintai, but she has just as many dice and a lower DC?
[X] Enter the possessed sub in order to break enough of it to expel the dark spirit
I'd really rather not deal with a reverse white whale.
I'd really rather not deal with a reverse white whale.