Can I ask why and even with that request to know why ask please no I get it they're powerful but it is a soul eating monster no hyperbole necessary or intended.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Oh... he is definitely strong enough to do so, but I am assuming you want him to do it on the regular and for what Molly would consider a reasonable price? That would take some negotiating because technically while you can ask him to start offering sponsored magic and even ask for some conditions, each instance of sponsoring is between him and the Talent.
Or you can ask him to give say Harry a magical boon free and clear, that is valid as well, but if you want more people see above.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
We did vote to make a plan for the Denarians. Seems like adding Embermane to it would be a good idea. Could have him shutdown NeverNever travel for the ambush. Someone on his level willing to fight the Fallen are rare and he already owes us a favor for it.
We can get Gossamer just by killing things. Rather than use him as a regent dispenser which will require some effort on our part to farm ethically id rather have the rare asset for the Fallen ambush.
[X] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail
We can get Gossamer just by killing things. Rather than use him as a regent dispenser which will require some effort on our part to farm ethically id rather have the rare asset for the Fallen ambush.
[X] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail
Last edited:
MIght I ask what for? We already have a lot of outstanding splendor projects, and many more potential ones. We have a number of allies to equip. Resources are our bottleneck that prevents us from truly grand projects. If we solve it, then, couple with the forge, we should be able to make a leap in power and facilitate many other actions.
[X] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail
- Location
- Germany
Would Harrowmont be a valid example of a strong spirit sponsoring a single person?
Cause his power certainly went up by a lot through the deal.
Cause his power certainly went up by a lot through the deal.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Seriously though the Fallen/Denarians are going to be a constant issue for us due to Molly's relationship with the church, a Sword of the Cross, Heaven in general, and best Circle girl Tiffany. Embermane's ire towards them is never going to fade. We get his help with the Fallen faction and it'll pay off dividends in the long run.
Big hitters like him actually willing to assist you with no additional cost are extremely rare. Unlike the Outsider faction the default stance towards the Fallen isn't a willingness to fight them.
If your planning on ambushing someone and have the option to shut down their teleportation escape route (NeverNever travel) you take it.
Big hitters like him actually willing to assist you with no additional cost are extremely rare. Unlike the Outsider faction the default stance towards the Fallen isn't a willingness to fight them.
If your planning on ambushing someone and have the option to shut down their teleportation escape route (NeverNever travel) you take it.
Last edited:
Embermane isn't a Naagoloshi, his nature doesn't have to be inherently objectionable. He's probably not all rainbows and sunshine, but it's in principle possible to make something work.
Also worth noting that the guy still has to eat regardless of what we do. A long term deal like this one or the Gossamer one would remove the need for feeding in an objectionable way. Maybe he would regardless, but in that case we're going to have a problem either way.
Okay, that makes sense.
Some deal with good conditions was what I was thinking, or maybe a single ritual we prepay for. Just to flesh it out more:
His nature is destructive, to the point that we could feed him with a splendor that he could trigger by exploding things, right? So my assumption is that a splendor feeding funnel would also get triggered if he put his power towards blowing something up through a client. He'd still be acting to destroy things after all.
If that worked then any client he supported would basically be self supporting. Unless he feeds them all the power he's capable of holding at once he'd always get out more than he put in. His primary incentive would only really be for them to invoke him as much as possible. The details of what they do with his support wouldn't affect him at all.
The deal I'm thinking of would be the feeding funnel and favor in exchange for only sponsoring magic while using the splendor for people we both agree on* and forgoing any spiritual claim or mental influence on the clients.
* potentially with a reasonable population range so he can't reject everyone and we can't attempt to hook him up to everyone with a pulse.
This is actually a fairly cheap and quick build as these things go, we did the same thing on the spot in Vegas.
Assuming the stuff I outline earlier in this post works the point would be to trade sponsorship to the council. They're leery of that sort of thing because the terms tend to be biased against the mortal and can have unpleasant consequences when the debt piles up.
What we could offer that's special would be a deal who's spiritual cost is subsidized and terms rebalanced by someone who can think like a mortal but negotiate with powerful spirits like one of their own. Being able to pay us in material things is way better than having parts of your soul on the hook.
So if they take it then the wizards get killier in while fighting the red court, we get clout for helping them to leverage when the Peabody mess goes off, and we get paid for it.
More splendor juice is nice, but this would be hard to replicate with them and the world isn't going to wait on us. We need to make some moves to set up for our upcoming actions before the opportunity passes us by.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Alright so what is your arguments for why Spawning Pit Sanctification (••••) shouldn't be purchased?
You just said you had some so let's read them if you are comfortable posting them.
Crafting is not our greatest asset.
Our greatest asset has been our ability to negotiate, change minds and recruit people big and small.
We may be the only Exalted crafter, but we are also the only Exalted diplomancer, and the only Exalted tank, and the only Exalted Ancient Sorcerer.
All of which have been way more plot critical thus far.
And no, we do not have many other face punchers in our orbit that can get in the same ring as Denarians.
Very few people are capable or willing to do this, especially given as Denarians can fall back on Lucifer's backing, which is why Embermane's willingness to do so is so much of a big deal for us, and this situation.
Crafting reagents are fungible. Embermane-class combatants are not.
PS
Also worth keeping in mind that crafted items can be stolen, when necessary by killing the holder first.
So there is limited utility in crafting items that draw aggro to the wielder that they cant handle.
=====
Oh. Well, Harry's not wrong. Neither is Lydia. They're just talking about different things.
Wizards refer to magic as a contiguous field across the entire planet, and we see that Harry is correct about this when the Denarians block it out in Small Favor, forcing the Archive to fight at reduced power.
However, its not the only source of power for casting in the Dresdenverse, just the only one usually available to mortals.
Harry himself has used Hellfire onscreen multiple times, both as an offensive magic, and in defence when Corpsetaker was mindraping him in Dead Beat. We've seen him use Soulfire in canon. We've also seen Outsider bullshit, and that while magic is not mortal magic, and does not draw from mortal sources either. Not to mention Faith magic.
None of this is available to most mortal magic users, and for good reason.
And while Rampires can use leylines to cast ritual magic, they cannot do so quickly or easily.
When they cast magic, they draw from a distinctly different source to Dresden's senses. Pay attention to the White Council; they worry about skills transferring over, not that a turned wizard is the same as a mortal wizard.
=====
Point of correction:
Naagloshii helped teach Native Americans, but it has never been stated in Dresdenverse that they taught magic.
The skills carry over, which is why Odin can teach the original Merlin, and the Leanansidhe can teach Molly, and River Shoulders can teach Listens to Wind(and in the future Dresden himself). But that doesnt mean they can necessarily use the same power sources; being mortal, being human puts you under different rules than others.
===
No it doesnt.
We have seen two Rampire casters up close in canon; Bianca back in Grave Peril, and Arianna Ortega in Changes. And we've also seen other vampire casters at a distance; the Lords of Outer Night at Chitchen Itza, and Drakul's posse in Battle Grounds.
They dont cast from the same sources Dresden and other wizards do.
The closest they have come is trying to tap leylines to use rituals.
===
Priority targets? No more than wizards are, and they are much less squishy than wizards are.
Your standard wizard gets to live several hundred years despite being susceptible to disease, poison, accidents and getting their throat ripped out.
Give vampires, who already have supernatural resilience, wizard-tier magic, and wizards become obsolete.
I mean, the Senior Council wizards McCoy and Langtry are 300ish years old as of canon.
Lara Raith is at least their age; we know she was old enough to spend most of the 1700s in Japan, back when the Home Islands were closed to foreigners.
Arianna Ortega was betwen 2x-10x their age, given as she was around when the Spanish started showing up.
Consider what would have happened if she was born a wizard, with wizard-class casting, more than twice their experience, and all the physical resilience of Rampires to boot.
The White Council would not be a factor.
PS
And yes, we know the Red Court is at least 1500 years old in the books because of Chitchen Itza, and predates the birth of Christ in the RPG. Not sure about the Black Court; Black Court vampires are ancient as a species, but as a geopolitical power the Black Court was relatively new before they got mobbed.
Last edited:
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
[X] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[X] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail
You're getting excessively defensive about this. I don't want the charm because feeding people alive to maggots to force them to bend to our will is horrifyingly awful and it's doesn't even offer unique capability that is somehow important enough to justify it.
Which is fairly aligned to one of your points and not an angle I argued with you about.
It's unreasonable to expect that if you post a set of arguments on a position that people are going to engage with all of them and not read through till they see something they think is right and ignore everything else.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Everyone who voted for the Fallen ambush plan should consider voting to have Embermane help us out with it. I don't think people realize how unlikely it is that we'll find and secure the help of another powerhouse of his caliber to fight the Fallen without a significant cost to us.
We can get regents just by killing things and we kill things all the time, securing regents as a bonus even when they aren't our main goal. Soon we'll have the Forge to reduce crafting cost across the board too. Embermane will not supplement our material cost for crafting singlehandedly. Why use him for regent farming when we have other options for sourcing regents?
This is a phenomenally rare opportunity let's not squander it for crafting regents please.
Edit: For example- We could arrange a deal with the White Council in which they give us some of the Rampire corpses they are undoubtedly making due to their war with the Reds. They give us corpses to use as regents and in exchange we give them magitech guns and ammunition from Sanctuary which they can use to make more corpses.
We can get regents just by killing things and we kill things all the time, securing regents as a bonus even when they aren't our main goal. Soon we'll have the Forge to reduce crafting cost across the board too. Embermane will not supplement our material cost for crafting singlehandedly. Why use him for regent farming when we have other options for sourcing regents?
This is a phenomenally rare opportunity let's not squander it for crafting regents please.
Edit: For example- We could arrange a deal with the White Council in which they give us some of the Rampire corpses they are undoubtedly making due to their war with the Reds. They give us corpses to use as regents and in exchange we give them magitech guns and ammunition from Sanctuary which they can use to make more corpses.
Last edited:
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Uh...you might want to check what you wrote in the post I replied to:
I wasn't getting defensive. I was and am asking you to list those other options for minion upgrades that are a rebuttal for the argument of using SPS. I'm genuinely curious what other charms or combination of charms you think we can use instead of Manchurian Agents. I'm arguing against SPS and I want more arrows in my quiver for that.
"It's unreasonable to expect that if you post a set of arguments on a position that people are going to engage with all of them and not read through till they see something they think is right and ignore everything else." Yes. I agree. What does this argument have to do with the argument we've been having so far???
You did the opposite. You read trough my arguments until you found something you thought was wrong, argued that it was wrong and ignored everything else. Which again fair enough I think that is a valid way to make an argument, but now you just have me confused as to what is the point you are making with that last paragraph in your newest reply.
[X] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail
You yourself repeatedly insisted that we are not, in fact, a diplomancer, that we lack many of the required charms for such a build. Yes, we used diplomacy and are good at it, but we use craft much more, including as a foundational tool for out diplomacy, where we trade promises to make things for favors. There are other beings good at diplomacy, including those allied or at least aligned with us. We are the only crafter of such caliber around. That's much more valuable to "our side". Everyone can do politics. We are the only one who can swing the hammer.
Crafting reagents are very much not fungible. Gossamer can power at least a three dot splendor, possibly a 4 dot one. In order to obtain a similar reagent, we would need to kill a greater akuma, or a lord of an outer night - something that would take at least an AP to do. By setting up a steady supply of gossamer, we save at least one AP per turn, possibly more, and avoid a lot of political issues and dangers, both political and physical.
It's also important to note that gossamer production is in perpetuity (as long as we can setup feeding). Thinking long-term, that's much more valuable than anything else I can think of.
Citation needed. You are inventing things again. Harry is just wrong and very biased.
1) We see Broken Seeker teach people magic basically on screen in this quest - his cultists were taught shapeshifting by him.
2) Direct quote from Turn Coat, chapter 29:
Naagloshii taught magic to mortals.
Yes, exactly, which is why splendor juice is essential. To get one splendor reagent takes at least one AP. Assuming 1 gossamer per month, we save 12 AP per year. That's huge. Much more than helping the knights is. This is the setup. Take the option to make other actions available. The synergy with the Forge we set up is too insane not to go for this.
A quick reminder - a one-use auto-resurrection splendor is only 3 dots normally, 2 dots for us. Equipping everyone with splendor-grade armor is made possible with this. Making a squad and later a full corps of green lanterns is made possible by this. Setting up the manse so we can start pumping out 5 dot arcana spirits not once per month but once per week (at most) is made possible by this. Making everyone relevant perfectly immune to Nemesis possession is made possible by this. Mass-producing dragonblooded is made possible by this. All manner of things are made possible that are otherwise just aren't because we don't have time.
- Location
- Germany
[X] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail
Yep, enough destruction by fire would count as a sacrifice made in his name, he would even be able to set it up so that he consumes the animating force of say Black Court Vampires when they are burned, though that is something the talent would have to learn. Spirit Killing is hard for mortals to achieve even when they cheat.
Last edited:
- Location
- Germany
I support options that make Harry burn things conceptually in addition to physically!
See, this is an understatement, and a gross one. We won't just be killing things. We'll be finding and killing ancient and powerful horrors. While that doesn't, on the face of it, sound objectionable, it is very much a destabilizing factor, and, also, it's an AP hog. Because we'll need to find them, set up killing, etc. Oh, and many, if not all of them, are going to be sapient. Killing them primarily for their bodies/souls sets up a very bad precedent.
An ethically sustainable source of gossamer is very much a thing we can't normally replicate.
@DragonParadox are there any natural sources of Splendor fuel other than Dragon nests like volcanic pearls that you have to find in the center of volcanoes, Essences of pure water you have to find in the deepest oceans, frozen lightning that you have to find in cold places that have lightning storms anything like that or is it only Dragon nests, Murder and magic sapients?
So far we've had things like our Circle mates because they are highly magical along with ourselves we can generate reagents occasionally the tears of the summer maiden but that's more needing to harvest living people for Magical materials again so I'm just wondering.
So far we've had things like our Circle mates because they are highly magical along with ourselves we can generate reagents occasionally the tears of the summer maiden but that's more needing to harvest living people for Magical materials again so I'm just wondering.
Not inherently due to the Veil parting the world in two. If you could somehow merge the material world and the nevernever that would allow you to power Splendors with geomancy from elemental forces... which is how it worked in Creation.
So, it comes back to Manses. The catch is, of course, that we'll need a lot of resources to do this in the first place.