Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[OctarineShrike]

well yes cause we're probably gonna encounter one eventually and its nice to establish canon. Also if your wrong or possibly wrong I'm gonna note it even if its not very important for the conversation now. If I'm wrong about something point it out to me I don't want to prorogate incorrect information that stuff can stick. Sorry thats its annoying you extrapolating something from something else with no real basis and I'm making note of it.

Click to shrink...

Sure/Fair enough. I dug up the exact words since the wiki's wording made me think it was Shagnasty specifically.

Intellectus

Intellectus refers to a mode of existence which allows instant knowledge of anything by merely thinking about it. Having Intellectus is a feature of a small number of powerful supernatural beings.[1] It first appears in Turn Coat. Intellectus allows an immortal being to gain access to any...

dresdenfiles.fandom.com

the Skinwalker that Dresden faced in Turn Coat has a limited form of Intellectus that focuses on how best to torture its victim.

Click to shrink...

I don't see how this can be generalized to all skinwalkers without further information.

WoJ on Other bad guys, beyond the Outer Gates, + Demonreach – The Word of Jim

Q: How and why did the skinwalker take Thomas?

A: Thomas was distracted by Binder's minions and the skinwalker saw the opportunity. It knew that Thomas is important to Harry, but not necessarily that Thomas is Harry's brother. The skinwalker exists in more than one dimension at a time and it has its own kind of intellectus when it comes to evil – it knows what will hurt you and scare you, even though it may not really know why. It took Thomas because he knew it would hurt and scare Harry. How it tortured Thomas wasn't part of any direction it was given to turn Thomas back into a monster, it was done because the skinwalker knew what would hurt Thomas and torment him, more than just physically.

Click to shrink...

The exact words leave more room for interpretation. Butcher could have meant "Shagnasty" everytime he said "The Skinwalker" in this context but I can see him talking about all skinwalkers when he mentions intellectus too.

In the end though my position is that acting in a cavalier fashion with broad spectrum intellectus will eventually expose it/reduce it's value/attract enemies who threaten people around us. Therefore, we should make a habit of acting in fashions that launder Crown knowledge where possible.

 

[firefrog600]

We spent an Excellency on getting the girl to talk.

We rolled 7 successes on a dice pool of 12, in geting her to give us her life story.
Thats supernatural levels of persuasiveness for us, with supernatural levels of success.
And in all that talk she has raised no obvious red flags. Thats enough.

There's reasonable caution, and there's paranoid intrusion. Going more is pretty clearly the second, and is wildly out of character.

This is Molly.
She didnt ask Daniel about this girl even when she suspected he had a girlfried, because she didnt want to pry.
It took him sleeping over and then getting grilled by Charity for her to decide it was permissible to ask.

As for all this talk of names and stuff? This is a game.
OOC, we arent going to win it by spamming Crown of Eyes actions, even if just for Doylist reasons.

Click to shrink...

I mean there were plenty of red flags that shes supernatural in some degree just you know checking that doesn't seem that bad. We are at worse accelerating learning some names we aren't asking her greatest secrets.

 

[firefrog600]

Sure/Fair enough. I dug up the exact words since the wiki's wording made me think it was Shagnasty specifically.

Intellectus

Intellectus refers to a mode of existence which allows instant knowledge of anything by merely thinking about it. Having Intellectus is a feature of a small number of powerful supernatural beings.[1] It first appears in Turn Coat. Intellectus allows an immortal being to gain access to any...

dresdenfiles.fandom.com

I don't see how this can be generalized to all skinwalkers without further information.

WoJ on Other bad guys, beyond the Outer Gates, + Demonreach – The Word of Jim

The exact words leave more room for interpretation. Butcher could have meant "Shagnasty" everytime he said "The Skinwalker" in this context but I can see him talking about all skinwalkers when he mentions intellectus too.

In the end though my position is that acting in a cavalier fashion with broad spectrum intellectus will eventually expose it/reduce it's value/attract enemies who threaten people around us. Therefore, we should make a habit of acting in fashions that launder Crown knowledge where possible.

Click to shrink...

No reason it can't be all skinwalkers either (I'd note shagnasty hasn't shown to be in any way special when compared to other skinwalkers so I don't see why it would be unique to him and all skinwalkers love torture) really its a niche intellectus anyways. Now many beings have intellectus who have been around for thousands of years which others I assume don't know the details. Though in fairness to you many of those said beings are limited in what they can do and so limited in what others can learn from them we are not so much limited in that case in which case others can learn what we've done cause we can act unlike said beings.

 

[uju32]

true though in fairness harry was busy being poor and abused and an orphan for a lot of that time. Presumably hes better at star wars knowledge cause he could watch outside from a distance and well movies don't take that long. Not saying he couldn't play anything harry and disclosable income is not a thing harrys ever had though.

Click to shrink...

Harry was an orphan for 4 years.
His father died at 6, he disappeared into the foster system, triggered at 10 and was adopted by DuMorne soon afterwards.
There was a period when he was poor and abused, and it left its mark, but he wasnt deprived for his six years with DuMorne.

Pentex runoff is super deadly, like that is the company that sells how to murder your parents dolls. They are what caption planet bad guys wish they where. And raw bleach is super deadly if you immerse yourself in it for any length of time. You not going to find a human that can survive being submerged in bleach for a few hours. Assume it has to fatal withing minutes to trigger the charm.

Click to shrink...

The fact that we have both Pentex runoff and bleach
You add bleach into drinking water. You use it to sanitize swimming pools.
You dont do that with soap. Or shampoo. Or conditioner. Or bath oils.

And to be fair, that Pentex stuff is pretty obviously exaggerated.
I was looking at a W20 sourcebook and the language was so overwrought it went past parody into farce.
There's only so much possible for a functioning company, even an evil one.

She gave off loads and loads of red flags that she's up to her neck in the supernatural even if she doesn't realise it

Click to shrink...

Those are not red flags.

There's pretty clear signs that her father is a supernatural, or deeply involved in the supernatural.
There are no signs that she is deeply involved in the supernatural, or that she is a danger to Daniel, and we rolled very well on getting her to talk. More poking is not justified by what we got.

Her father might be of interest to Molly.
She is not.
And the fact that Daniel is involved with her means that Molly is not going to pry into her without further reason.

I mean there were plenty of red flags that shes supernatural in some degree just you know checking that doesn't seem that bad. We are at worse accelerating learning some names we aren't asking her greatest secrets.

Click to shrink...

I mean, its worth remembering that Daniel Carpenter's father is involved in the supernatural, because he's a Knight of Cross.
That doesnt mean Daniel is involved in the supernatural.
Or that you'd now be justified to pry into his ancestry, or indeed that said ancestry would tell you anything useful.

 

[firefrog600]

Harry was an orphan for 4 years.
His father died at 6, he disappeared into the foster system, triggered at 10 and was adopted by DuMorne soon afterwards.
There was a period when he was poor and abused, and it left its mark, but he wasnt deprived for his six years with DuMorne.


The fact that we have both Pentex runoff and bleach
You add bleach into drinking water. You use it to sanitize swimming pools.
You dont do that with soap. Or shampoo. Or conditioner. Or bath oils.

And to be fair, that Pentex stuff is pretty obviously exaggerated.
I was looking at a W20 sourcebook and the language was so overwrought it went past parody into farce.
There's only so much possible for a functioning company, even an evil one.


Those are not red flags.

There's pretty clear signs that her father is a supernatural, or deeply involved in the supernatural.
There are no signs that she is deeply involved in the supernatural, or that she is a danger to Daniel, and we rolled very well on getting her to talk. More poking is not justified by what we got.

Her father might be of interest to Molly.
She is not.
And the fact that Daniel is involved with her means that Molly is not going to pry into her without further reason.


I mean, its worth remembering that Daniel Carpenter's father is involved in the supernatural, because he's a Knight of Cross.
That doesnt mean Daniel is involved in the supernatural.
Or that you'd now be justified to pry into his ancestry, or indeed that said ancestry would tell you anything useful.

Click to shrink...

I mean I'm quite aware and a large part of me just wants the ball rolling and to be prepared like this is not that personal a question we can't really extrapolate almost any personal information from it other than possible future powers for her. It lets us prepare though and lets us inform our brother later. I am not here to judge her I am to be prepared instead of just waiting until it is a problem why not just ask and know what the potential problem and if there's no problem we just learned the name of a rich dude and possibly her mother. Thats it!

If we don't do it now I fully expect nothing to happen next update, we get nothing other than a slightly relaxing time, then we move on and have this conversation again like a week later or when someones actually in trouble.

 

[uju32]

For those who missed it:

"If she is of fey blood it is likely of the Winter Court," Usum notes clinically. "Else knowing or unknowing she would have been repelled by the chill of your presence Crown of the World's Wisdom."

Crown... that reminds you. I could look, know for certain what she is hiding, what is being hidden from her even, but should I? This is the first time you have considered turning the power of the Crown on someone who is not an enemy like Gorfel, who might even be a friend. On the other hand she is close to Daniel... what if she does know, what if she has some plan for him? Even if she is unknowing a changeling might put your brother in danger just being that she is, involved in that world.

Click to shrink...

If you check the rolls, we rolled 6 successes on an 18 dice Int+ Occult roll to figure this out. Thats exceptional success.

We already have a good idea of what she is: changeling.
We know that her relationship with Daniel predated any of our encounter with the Winter Court.
The rest is just idle curiosity in my opinion.

 

[firefrog600]

For those who missed it:

If you check the rolls, we rolled 6 successes on an 18 dice Int+ Occult roll to figure this out. Thats exceptional success.

We already have a good idea of what she is: changeling.
We know that her relationship with Daniel predated any of our encounter with the Winter Court.
The rest is just idle curiosity in my opinion.

Click to shrink...

yeah and its just a guess on our part nothing we can tell our brother. He you know deserves to know and again can you tell me how knowing a couple names is so personal that its invading their privacy? We don't learn anything very personal its stuff we're likely to just learn and is no worse than the passive perception stuff we are likely to get someday.

 

[DragonParadox]

yeah and its just a guess on our part nothing we can tell our brother. He you know deserves to know and again can you tell me how knowing a couple names is so personal that its invading their privacy? We don't learn anything very personal its stuff we're likely to just learn and is no worse than the passive perception stuff we are likely to get someday.

Click to shrink...

Does he deserve to know? It should be noted that Lydia herself might not know, that too was something that was speculated and well if she does not know she is a changeling and you find out that is deeply personal. Hard to get anymore personal than 'What am I?'

Not to say if you should ask or no, just pointing out these are not light matters.

 

[uju32]

yeah and its just a guess on our part nothing we can tell our brother. He you know deserves to know and again can you tell me how knowing a couple names is so personal that its invading their privacy? We don't learn anything very personal its stuff we're likely to just learn and is no worse than the passive perception stuff we are likely to get someday.

Click to shrink...

No he does not deserve to know her family secrets, any more than Molly's boyfriends deserved to know that her father is a paladin, or that her mother was a cult member and almost eaten by a dragon.

We dont judge mortal people on their ancestry, and she herself might not even know how far her ancestry goes; most changelings dont know details. If they're dating for any period of time and it is serious, then it might be relevant.
Until then, its none of his business.

And as far as we can currently tell, she neither means him harm nor poses unintentional harm.
That is where our responsibility stops.
Or should stop.

Again, there is only so much prying that is justified.
Just because you can doesnt mean you should.

 

[firefrog600]

No he does not deserve to know her family secrets, any more than Molly's boyfriends deserved to know that her father was a paladin, or that her mother was almost eaten by a dragon.

We dont judge people on their ancestry, and she herself might not even know.
If they're dating for any period of time and it is serious, then it might be relevant.
Until then, its none of his business.

And as far as we can currently tell, she neither means him harm nor poses unintentional harm.
That is where our responsibility stops.
Or should stop.

Again, there is only so much prying that is justified.
Just because you can doesnt mean you should.

Click to shrink...

okay omg like it might be somewhat personal if shes not a supernatural being this doesn't give us any real secrets aside from a few names. Knowing this stuff doesn't mean we are judging her I've said this so many times it lets us know what we're working with. We aren't going to know any time soon if we don't ask now until its actually an issue either for her or for us if we choose not to ask now it won't be known until its actually an issue. Also with this kind of logic are we not gonna purchase passive perception powers eventually just cause it could harm someones privacy somewhat the stuff that lets us spot creatures of darkness, the stuff that lets us see energy signatures, etc etc, or are we going to just not buy those cause actively asking and passively learning aren't very different as far as I'm concerned?

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

It better to know then not know. But I disagree it is not worth wasting a question on her, she is at worse a unwitting cats-paw.

 

[uju32]

okay omg like it might be somewhat personal if shes not a supernatural being this doesn't give us any real secrets aside from a few names. Knowing this stuff doesn't mean we are judging her I've said this so many times it lets us know what we're working with. We aren't going to know any time soon if we don't ask now until its actually an issue either for her or for us if we choose not to ask now it won't be known until its actually an issue. Also with this kind of logic are we not gonna purchase passive perception powers eventually just cause it could harm someones privacy somewhat the stuff that lets us spot creatures of darkness, the stuff that lets us see energy signatures, etc etc, or are we going to just not buy those cause actively asking and passively learning aren't very different as far as I'm concerned?

Click to shrink...

1)Just because you are doing it with magic doesnt make it better.
If we went rifling through her purse for information it would be beyond the pale without more reason than exists.

If Molly herself was in Lydia's position, and the sister of a cute boy she was making eyes at used magic to perform Divination on her own history? She would feel violated in her place.
This is the same basic principle. Golden Rule. Live it.

You should need better than just idle curiosity as a justification for doing the information security equivalent of an anal probe on your brother's date. We already talked her into giving us her life history.


2) And yes, we will be well advised to exercise restraint with some of our sensory powers at random people.
Both because its the ethical thing to do, and because there are people who can and will take offence if you pry without sufficient justification. Making enemies because you are needlessly nosy would suck.

Enemies may not have an expectation of privacy, but neutrals often do; you dont see Dresden using the Sight on every bloody person out there. Might should not make right.


3) Also worth noting that people are assuming that our using Crown of Eyes on a person or subject goes undetected.
This might not necessarily be true, depending on who it is, how powerful they are, and who they are linked to.
Keep that in mind.

 

[firefrog600]

1)Just because you are doing it with magic doesnt make it better.
If we went rifling through her purse for information it would be beyond the pale without more reason than exists.

If Molly herself was in Lydia's position, and the sister of a cute boy she was making eyes at used magic to perform Divination on her own history? She would feel violated in her place.
This is the same basic principle. Golden Rule. Live it.

You should need better than just idle curiosity as a justification for doing the information security equivalent of an anal probe on your brother's date. We already talked her into giving us her life history.


2) And yes, we will be well advised to exercise restraint with some of our sensory powers at random people.
Both because its the ethical thing to do, and because there are people who can and will take offence if you pry without sufficient justification. Making enemies because you are needlessly nosy would suck.

Enemies may not have an expectation of privacy, but neutrals often do; you dont see Dresden using the Sight on every bloody person out there. Might should not make right.


3) Also worth noting that people are assuming that our using Crown of Eyes on a person or subject goes undetected.
This might not necessarily be true, depending on who it is, how powerful they are, and who they are linked to.
Keep that in mind.

Click to shrink...

few things why would we get said passive powers at all if we'd have to restrain them somehow? two its not idle curiosity depending on who their related said relations can be a threat and we can prepare. For the third thing no assumption should be made that people can't detect the crown I figure anything less than some form of intellectus wouldn't notice though (barring exceptions) since passive perception powers are very very rare in dresden files. Also Dresden and many don't use the sight because that shit gets burned into your mind permanently and can very very easily cause insanity.

Edit: Also honestly its barely even her own history its more her relatives species not even history. Also I'm unsure how much molly would care if someone looked at what she is? Like if they looked for her hopes and dreams and fears sure. What she is? I doubt she'd care.

 

[uju32]

few things why would we get said passive powers at all if we'd have to restrain them somehow? two its not idle curiosity depending on who their related said relations can be a threat and we can prepare. For the third thing no assumption should be made that people can't detect the crown I figure anything less than some form of intellectus would notice though since passive perception powers are very very rare in dresden files. Also Dresden and many don't use the sight because that shit gets burned into your mind permanently and can very very easily cause insanity.

Click to shrink...

1)For the same reason we bought a demon sword and only use it for fighting, not for everything from cutting vegetables to paring nails. There is always a time and place.
And there is a difference between overhearing a conversation and using notIntellectus on a persons history.

2)No, its idle curiosity.
She's a changeling. We know it with a high degree of confidence. She means our brother no harm; we know that with a high degree of confidence. We have no reason to look for more.

Everything else you're suggesting is a fishing expedition with no proximate initiator.

Frankly, from Molly's PoV, Lydia should be the one to worry.
Daniel's father is the wielder of Amoracchius, which means his family's enemies include Denarians. Noone is suggesting that we volunteer that, or that we're an Infernal who just picked a fight with the Thule Society, or who has enemies in the Winter Court.

Or even that Daniel's elder sister is a sometime work colleague and associate of Harry "Blast Radius" Dresden.
Harry "Summer Lady Killer" Dresden. Harry "Dinosaur Rider" Dresden.
Harry"Queen Mab Wants Him"Dresden.

Golden Rule. Live it.

3)Its especially important for someone destined to wield as much power as Molly Carpenter is to internalize the idea that other people have rights, and that she exercise restraint, instead of defaulting to violating everyone less powerful or less knowledgeable than she is as her first impulse.

4)You're talking magical information gathering here.
Dresden could put magic spies outside the house of all his neighbors if he wanted. Pay the Za Guard to spy on all of them for any changes and justify it as security. He doesnt.

He could spend time using magic to gather information on Rudolph and Greene to ruin their careers; Rudolph is dirty as of Changes. He doesnt.
Because you can does not mean you should.

 

[DragonParadox]

Dresden could put magic spies outside the house of all his neighbors if he wanted. Pay the Za Guard to spy on all of them for any changes and justify it as security. He doesnt.

He could spend time using magic to gather information on Rudolph and Greene to ruin their careers; Rudolph is dirty as of Changes He doesnt.
Because you can does not mean you should.

Click to shrink...

Most wizards avoid the moral quandary of having to put spies on their neighbors to watch for enemies by being rich enough not to have neighbors close by. Dresden seems to have not gotten the memo about money being useful .

 

[firefrog600]

Most wizards avoid the morel quandary of having to put spies on their neighbors to watch for enemies by being rich enough not to have neighbors close by. Dresden seems to have not gotten the memo about money being useful .

Click to shrink...

dresden actually has abilities to make money that aren't too sketchy just in a lot of ways magic is harrys religion he loves it and thinks that it should be used for good things. Hes not too judging much unless people do actively bad things with it he holds himself to a higher ideal though.

1)For the same reason we bought a demon sword and only use it for fighting, not for everything from cutting vegetables to paring nails. There is always a time and place.
And there is a difference between overhearing a conversation and using notIntellectus on a persons history.

2)No, its idle curiosity.
She's a changeling. We know it with a high degree of confidence. She means our brother no harm; we know that with a high degree of confidence. We have no reason to look for more.

Everything else you're suggesting is a fishing expedition with no proximate initiator.

Frankly, from Molly's PoV, Lydia should be the one to worry.
Daniel's father is the wielder of Amoracchius, which means his family's enemies include Denarians. Noone is suggesting that we volunteer that, or that we're an Infernal who just picked a fight with the Thule Society, or who has enemies in the Winter Court.

Golden Rule. Live it.

3)Its especially important for someone destined to wield as much power as Molly Carpenter is to internalize the idea that other people have rights, and that she exercise restraint, instead of defaulting to violating everyone less powerful or less knowledgeable than she is as her first impulse.

4)You're talking magical information gathering here.
Dresden could put magic spies outside the house of all his neighbors if he wanted. Pay the Za Guard to spy on all of them for any changes and justify it as security. He doesnt.

He could spend time using magic to gather information on Rudolph and Greene to ruin their careers; Rudolph is dirty as of Changes He doesnt.
Because you can does not mean you should.

Click to shrink...

I agree with all of this though when I meant passive powers I didn't mean spies I meant the powers that tell you the species your talking too, the powers that tell you the energy signature your dealing with, etc etc.

Edit: Though being honest in real life I don't think people really have inherent rights we just want them not that it should stop us from doing what we consider good. This is more a philosophy thing though.

 

[bengalqueen]

Wait, I have an idea for a good question!

[X] Ask a question of your Crown
-[X] "As things currently stand, in what way/ways is Lydia's relationship with my brother a potential danger to him or my other loved ones?"

That's what we really care about, right? Whether she's a threat? Either by existing, because of something with her family, or even hostile intentions? @DragonParadox, how would this work as a question?

 

[firefrog600]

Wait, I have an idea for a good question!

[X] Ask a question of your Crown
-[X] "As things currently stand, in what way/ways is Lydia's relationship with my brother a potential danger to him or my other loved ones?"

That's what we really care about, right? Whether she's a threat? Either by existing, because of something with her family, or even hostile intentions? @DragonParadox, how would this work as a question?

Click to shrink...

waaaaaaay too late for this honestly a new vote isn't winning.

 

[bengalqueen]

waaaaaaay too late for this honestly a new vote isn't winning.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I figured, but honestly I just woke up recently and figured I'd give it a shot.

 

[firefrog600]

Yeah, I figured, but honestly I just woke up recently and figured I'd give it a shot.

Click to shrink...

I appreciate the enthusiasm just know your efforts are useless.

 

[the DragonBard]

My thoughts on our upcoming XP expenditures.
First is definitely Essence 2
Afterwards...
Awareness/Alertness/Investigation 1
Appearance 2
Sapphire Sphere Banishment
Dexterity 5
Stamina 4
Perception 3
Athletics 2
WP 10
Some perfect defense
Craft 4
Brawl 1
Computer 1
Intelligence 5
Essence Dissecting Stare
Mind Hand Manipulation
Academics 2
Excellencies for Brawl, Athletics, Investigation

I know that's a lot, but should be helpful. Also help cover gaps in Molly's present abilities.

Also need a ranged attack method of some sort.

 

[Valkhir]

Brawl 1

Click to shrink...

Mind Hand Manipulation

Click to shrink...

Excellencies for Brawl,

Click to shrink...

For what reason?

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

The thing that is most vital to get is VED. That solves basically all our problems.

 

[Artemis1992]

The thing that is most vital to get is VED. That solves basically all our problems.

Click to shrink...

No, it skips over a lot of problems we can solve conventionally or don't have to solve yet.

In exchange it catapults us forward to much bigger problems as even supernatural powers will be very interested in getting a real genie.

 

[Nemomagnus]

[X] Just go out and have fun
-[X] Take Lydia to an arcade where she can play some video games, against people and machines. And Daniel can try to win her a prize.
-[X] Stunt: Steer the group to machines and games which could surreptitiously reveal whether or not Lydia possesses unusual or even superhuman physical skills and attributes such as speed, strength, dexterity, etc.