Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Yeah but Daniel can get all of that as well. He is slated for that, yet he is getting the Xander Harris treatment for some reason.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
You mean all of that insane risk in all of those situations with near minimum reward with a ton of necessity those decisions that I just mentioned and a lot of others in this Quest. But we can't take a decision with very low risk some reward in the form of gratitude from both our sister and his girlfriend who is also our Circle mate and of I will say little necessity but still a nice thing to do anyway. There is little to no risk and a good enough reward for at least a word in his favor.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
What are you talking about? There is no PG in the NN that's not what he would've went in there looking for. He wanted power and the NN has beings of power in it. You do the math.
Your exaggerating. You've no actual logical reason to believe that. He isn't finished with his training we didn't give him the sword yet that's why I'm not in a rush to bring him along. Doesn't matter how safe it looks we didn't expect combat when we went to Boston. It ended with us nuking Hell.
- Location
- Brazil
But did we end up having a girls' weekend in Boston? Of course the situation got out of control but that was the original purpose of taking Lydia and Olivia with us.
Not being interested in fighting with Caridade is a completely valid reason (That woman is still a terrible opponent even for an Infernal in E4). But Caridade was only flexible because we spent months fighting her with our power and she saw that she couldn't stop us. If you remember we both had a fight before because at the beginning of the quest she was being terribly controlling with Molly and affecting us, you spent several pages being patient with her and acknowledging the problem but arguing that she will change for the better. Charity was not flexible with anyone, we were the ones who bend her (with a lot of effort).
But I always thought you moved the goalposts when it came to Daniel.
At first you fought tooth and nail against anything that involved him in the supernatural, after being defeated in the vote, you still argued to give a thousand demands to help our brother. And by the way, I'll correct a few things:
a) Our agreement was not that he finish the training course for Red City soldiers, it was that he train for a few more months in the martial style that is most compatible with him and a sword, until he becomes more proficient (and he and Olivia they started at the same time).
b) He will explicitly want to participate in our adventures just as we are taking Olivia, that was the reason he wanted power in the first place, so saying that we won't take him on adventures is just a lie to others, as that would only be true if We had arrested him and with all our buffs, exhausted all his willpower until he accepted our will, from the beginning.
c) Your biggest arguments against Daniel, besides the expressed desire for him to stay completely out of the supernatural, was the lack of powers or advantages inherent to the supernatural, that he was always at a disadvantage and it was shown with Olivia that the IDU can greatly compensate for this. The downside of influence is just people blowing things out of proportion, again, just like they did during the whole plague maggos debate, which is much worse and it was ultimately decided that even then people wouldn't just agree with everything Molly, would just make her more persuasive and yet they could easily expend willpower to completely deny Molly.
Daniel will inherently be under Molly's orders as we will be the ones telling him what to do during screen time just like we do with Olivia, off screen where we see things we won't restrict him just as we don't restrict her.
He respects us, knows our power and knows that we fight against very dangerous things. The likelihood of this worst-case scenario that you fear is almost certain to happen if we continue to deny his wishes to "keep him safe." This is not a teenager thing, it is a human thing to rebel if their will continues to be trampled on for reasons they cannot accept.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
No Daniel cannot get a divine bloodline. If your looking at it from a combat perspective he will always be overshadowed by a troop we can pull from the Five Courts, especially if given the same investments(reforged sword). What you guys are saying and what's written are two different things. He just started training and we haven't even given him the sword yet or anything else. Boston turned into a shit show and we have no idea what to expect from the angel dogs. Saying that it's supposed to be a nonviolent outing isn't saying much really.
It is not a quest to beg it is too find, it is a seeking of purpose of strength to Define your own destiny and you cannot do that if you fucking sell your soul to some random schmuck."Remember how I said you can't do this quickly?" Daniel's girlfriend, no Lydia Rhys, princess of a bleak kingdom ever-lost, said. "That is not actually true, there are faster ways to knowledge, to power, but if you are not paying the price someone, something else has to. That is sacrificial magic."
She meant that. It was like a bucket of cold water dumped on his head. If he just said the word Lydia would unlock the padded case in the study, take out the gleaming brass athame and start killing things until he said stop, until he was sacrificed with whatever gifts had been ripped out of them.
"There are vampires Red and Black court, shapeshifters in town, there's shapeshifters that eat man-flesh..."
It was terrifying, exhilarating, disgusting, flattering and it felt like his stomach had fallen though the floor and decided to walk home. If he had any amount of good sense he would probably follow it. Instead, voice sounding a lot more certain than he felt Daniel Carpenter managed. "I don't want that."
"Three paths twined and three paths parted, wisdom earned, blood taken and glory everlasting lived..." Lydia murmured something under her breath. Before Daniel could ask her what she meant she rushed to one of the bookshelves and pried from it a tome wrapped in crumbling leaf of gold. Flipping to it quickly she came to whichever page she wanted and pressed it flat. Upon that pager there rode a knight all in red, from his clothes to his shield, his caparison and and the pennant atop his lance
"What..." Daniel started, but she was already answering. "This is the third way, the Otherworld, what wizards call the Nevernever, it runs on stories, it is stories. Invoke a quest the right way for the treasure you seek, be if purity, wealth wisdom or power and a path will open before you that you may walk."
"What's the catch?" Daniel asked, leaning in to read the Latin text. It wasn't the kind he was used to, but after so long along Lydia's books he had gotten the hang of 'Church Latin' even though he was quite sure this wasn't a church-approved book.
"The catch is you could die, you could lose yourself for decades, centuries, forever, you could find the thing you seek and discover it is as ashes in your mouth." Lydia raised a finger to his lips when he was about to speak. "I still think option two is better if you are tired of books, but you would have more luck than most who rode upon that path. People like me and Molly can tip the scales along the way where most others cannot."
The choice of 'keep slogging through books that tell me how insignificant I am' or 'break up with my girlfriend' had just gotten a whole lot more complicated.
The bombing of hell when it's a completely purposeful thing that we did of our own volition doesn't really count as a emergent situation.
I am absolutely opposed to IDU, because it bars him from getting the exaltation. And yes, I firmly think he has a chance.
Well, we could work on arranging a solar exaltation for him. That's one of the ways for him to be a peer power.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
You mean the same way a Shih can be overshadowed?
Qiao allowed Mortals to challenge the Vampires of the Jade Court and win. So I am not seeing how he is always destined to be overshadowed.
I mean, the more I think about it, the more you are treating him like how Buffy treated Xander at the middle of the show.
- Location
- Brazil
People should stop rise up Boston because the only reason the situation ended up escalating to the stage of invading hell was because we continued to push, getting to the point that when we were building the plague that Yog, one of the biggest supporters of robbing Joe, admitted that the situation got completely out of hand. The situation could have stopped after defeating Mikaboshi's attack teams, but we voted to increase it on purpose.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
This is such a hail Mary that I do not think it is even worth considering as an option.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
Obviously I meant someone from the Five Courts with the same style of training he's getting but with centuries more experience. Like those who are teaching him. Daniel would need a lot more than what he's been getting now for that not to be the case.
Your arguing over schematics here. Notice what Lydia says in your quote when Daniel ask what the catch is. She points out what I've been saying.
I'm not against the concept. I just think that DP has a character written up for it and your going to be disappointed when it gets released but I wouldn't be against trying for it.
- Location
- Brazil
I must agree with him Yog, although I'm not totally against it, this is based on so many hypotheses and so many situations working out for us that it's not worth putting trust in. Even in addition to the fact that this would delay even more months to make Daniel useful in supernatural combat for a remote possibility, first you would have to go through a huge wall: convincing the topic to release the solar exaltation.
I would like to remember that your plan lost votes because a lot of people, including me, thought you were going to let off the exaltation and not protect it.
Okay, she does indeed point out what you're saying I'm never saying it's without risk but to be honest he's going to do it anyway at the place we're going we're dragging his girl to Hell the only reason he's wanting to go this path anyway if he can't come with a trip to get her a dog and we offer training instead of actual Powers I'm actually at a loss on how we expect to retain him in a role because we know Lydia will just help him she sees nothing wrong with that.
At this point we've put it off a couple months and now we say you can't even come on a trip to catch or talk to a dog that's in the service of a saint. He's already feeling the burn enough to consider doing that we caught him last time but you can't come on a trip to get a dog holy shit I don't know if a saint an actual literal canonical Saint could put up with that level of bullshit. I'm a squishy mortal person and I don't think I could take that if my significant other was in so much danger regularly that a trip to get a dog would facilitate me staying home because I don't have Supernatural Powers holy shit I'm going on a Vision Quest the next day obviously the situation has decayed enough that Supernatural powers are the answer.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Let me remind you that the first one to actually wound or meaningfully threaten Molly was a sniper using mortal dice pool (As far as I know).
Because by your logic, Mortals should cower in the shadows and let the big boys and girls protect them as they clearly are NPC, Need Protection Classes and should be good little boys and girls and stay out of the way of big sister Molly and Co, who knows better.
I know the above is not at all what you are saying, but that is how I am seeing it. That...
1. Mortals do not matter.
2. Mortals need protection and cannot protect themselves.
3. Mortals just get in the way.
4, Mortals cannot contribute
5. Mortals cannot be dangerous
6. Etc, etc.
The core issue is that, when Daniel was all set to go on his "vision quest", Molly stopped him, offering him an alternative. Something safer for him to grow in power, so that he can stand side by side with his girlfriend.
Which, once again, is the core issue. Your proposing we make a token attempt and lock him up so that he will be safe. I mean you are proposing to do with him what Charity is doing, never mind that it will break the promise made to him, by defeating the very purpose why he wants power in the first place.
Secondly, this is such a blue milk run, if you are not even willing to allow him to come on this trip, to the White Counsel's backyard, where the MERLIN is walking around, then I am convinced that you genuinely want to put Daniel in a box and forget about him.
I do not know about you, but I for one an invested in Molly actually keeping her word to him, not offer distractions and platitudes to "Keep him safe"
So what will you do if he goes on his vision trip anyway? When Molly, due to votes, fails to keep her word? How will that be any safer than when Molly is around?
At least with her around, if things actually get dangerous, she can protect him, as opposed to him, being a thinking human being, loosing his patience, goes off on his quest.
Why? We know where an exaltation is. We can learn what the targeting parameters are. Why is it a hail Mary? As far as I can see, the situation is primed for this to work.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
We haven't been 'puting it off' we've been waiting so he can build his skill and power with the training he's been getting. The responsible thing to do before bringing him into possible combat scenarios.
We don't know if it's going to involve combat or not and since literally every time we've left Chicago that's what happened I don't have my hopes up. The notion that your squad can only move as fast as your weakest link is very much true. I wouldn't be against bringing him along low stakes missions (not Vegas not the Hell nuking I wouldn't want Olivia there either with her low long lasting will build) when he has more than a handful of months training as long as he doesn't ruin his relationship with his mother over it.
I am not suggesting that. See above.
I expect his perspective on power and his original intent to run off to fairy land to shift and mature somewhat as he trains under the tutelage of a very experienced magic man surrounded by magictech culture. Knowing intellectually how bad that could've went and actually seeing more of the supernatural first hand with everything that implies are two different things.
I'm not even going to try to address the rest of your post. Your stawmaning the fuck out of me to make a point and I can't say I care for it. That sort of thing heavily discourages interaction from me.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We likely could have even avoided the attack arctic battle. We didn't even let the minions try and talk to us. It's very possible that we could have scared them off we didn't have to escalate as far as possible. But we hate Mikaboshi and are offended by the wicked city's existence.
The way I am reading this is that you expect him to get scared off and settle for not mattering / not being able to be a peer for his girlfriend and sister. What if he doesn't?
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
Mikaboshi was experimenting with making people like Molly, attacked the U.S. economy and wanted the Proving Grounds. We had a bit more motive than that to do what we did.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
I do not mind it at all if it works but, that also releases the Abyssal.
The odds of it working are also slim to none, if the Primordials in the dawn of time could not pull it off, or the Solars in the First age could not.
I mean both groups also "knew" the selection criteria but failed to do so.
Third, is that we potentially do not know the selection criteris. I mean 3E has a very different take on it as opposed to 1/2E and we do not know which edition rules are being used.
Finally, Molly does not know the exact rules OOC we know but not IC.
OFC: Maybe I am mistaking something here so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
I outright stated that it was not what you were saying but how I was reading it. MY opinion, not what you were saying.
You say that "We haven't been 'puting it off' we've been waiting so he can build his skill and power with the training he's been getting. The responsible thing to do before bringing him into possible combat scenarios."
But then you say this.
So what are we supposed to think?
You outright dismissed him, saying it is too dangerous. When we pointed out he is getting empowered or that he matters and can help, you say that we can get better help.
So forgive me for reading too much into what you posted, because that is genuinely how it came across to me.
- Location
- Brazil
Probably. That's why we shouldn't use Boston as examples of a situation increasing beyond our control, Vegas yes, but Boston was where we were deliberately increasing things.
And Molly fifth wheeling, and Molly sixth wheeling, and Molly seventh wheeling, and Molly eigth wheeling.
[X] Try to rescue your brother's hopes of a weekend with his girlfriend in Wales
Reminder that Daniel is in an equivalent or better position to take care of problems than Murphy, which is allowed to matter against the supernatural.
Because the very mechanics of obtaining a solar exaltation is a hail mary in and on itself.