Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

There's a reason we dont do this in combat, and prefer to grapple instead if we must use MHM
Let me know if you want the mechanics so I dig them up
Because swording has just about always been a option?

And yes the disconnect between just how much weight MHM can throw and how much damage it can do directly does cause cognitive dissonance.
 
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There's a reason we dont do this in combat, and prefer to grapple instead if we must use MHM
Let me know if you want the mechanics so I dig them up
We grapple so we can hold them down for to use our sword since it is faster. The same is true doubly so for Sandblast strike since anyone that can handle Molly MHM can also dodge around Sandblast strike easily. And for the area effect to counter mass mook spam MHM throwing rocks and Sandblast strike are equivalents.
 
Her natural initial upgrade paths are Psychoportation, Clairvoyance, and Mana Manipulation. Defensively it's Mana Manipulation and Mind Shields. Non combat, expression is likely her go to, as a student of arts. After that, expanding her chi pool. Stat upgrades are AP, not XP, but should reasonably be expected, yes.
Mana Manipulation makes sense, as does Mind Shields.
Clairvoyance kinda needs better mental defenses; there's things that break minds to see in the Dresden Files, and she doesnt have any organic defenses.

She cant expand her chi pool AFAIK; you need to upgrade her Jade Talisman.
Because swording has just about always been a option?
No. Because its slow, and rolls a small dice pool.

Picking up an object is a grapple. Unopposed, but still takes up your turn action.
You do this with the activation successes from your Intelligence + Occult roll at DC6 as your dice pool; thats an average of 5 dice. Then throwing it is another turn, rolled at not sure, but assume DC6 or higher.

So the process of throwing something takes two combat turns, and can still be dodged or parried.
Just grappling the person is 1 turn and 9 dice, same as a Melee roll, with the difference that the Melee roll is lethal, while the grapple is bashing.
 
espectfully? No it doesnt.
Thats in part why the Essence economy is so tightly gated, and why its so easy to run out of gas.
I meant splendor immunity. It's right there in the crafting rules, complete with interactions if you make yourself immune to multiple elements at the same time.


This is not true.

Sandstrike Blast does 8L single target, and 10L AoE. TA turns that to Agg.
SBS averages 2-3A against (high-Stamina)supernaturals.
MHM does bashing
PIO allows non-lethal, but rolls Firearms for most of its weapons.
You might not like it, but we have a specific ruling about this that shoots down TA giving Agg to charm effects like this. Continuing to claim it does is misleading.

That 10L also costs 1 mote per blast, so it's as expensive as a perfect for less certainty of impact.
There are 4 types: human, vampire, spirit, fae. Ghosts go under spirits in this classification.
I'm still skeptical on the utility of these for us. Most scenarios where this isn't already covered by existing abilities should be better covered by murdering the caster at range.
 
We grapple so we can hold them down for to use our sword since it is faster. The same is true doubly so for Sandblast strike since anyone that can handle Molly MHM can also dodge around Sandblast strike easily. And for the area effect to counter mass mook spam MHM throwing rocks and Sandblast strike are equivalents.
None of this is true.

Sandblast Strike rolls at a lower DC than Melee; its a Dexterity 4 + Athletics 2 roll at DC5, with a range of 60 yards .
MHM throwing shit rolls at DC6 or higher, with a smaller dice pool to boot, and less range; average dice pool of 5 (Intelligence + Occult at DC6 roll) translates to a Throwing range of 25 yards.

And no, MHM does not get to attack multiple times in a turn to simulate an AoE attack.

You make mechanical claims without checking your mechanics.
You really shouldnt.
 
I meant splendor immunity. It's right there in the crafting rules, complete with interactions if you make yourself immune to multiple elements at the same time.
Ah.
Its not the first thats been banned for breaking the system either. As applied to the PCs, this would.
At least in the Dresdenverse.

You might not like it, but we have a specific ruling about this that shoots down TA giving Agg to charm effects like this. Continuing to claim it does is misleading.
That 10L also costs 1 mote per blast, so it's as expensive as a perfect for less certainty of impact.
1) Respectfully disagree that pointing out RAW and RAI is misleading.


2) And at a 40 yard AoE for the 1m cost when used by an Essence 4 Exalt, unless you can reflexively move more than 40 yards in a combat turn, its gonna hit.
Besides, the AoE mode is supposed to remove multiple attackers. You generally dont use it on one person.

I mean, you could, but thats just showing off. :V
 
We grapple so we can hold them down for to use our sword since it is faster. The same is true doubly so for Sandblast strike since anyone that can handle Molly MHM can also dodge around Sandblast strike easily. And for the area effect to counter mass mook spam MHM throwing rocks and Sandblast strike are equivalents.
They aren't equivalents for mook spam:

sandstriKe Blast (••)
The Infernal summons forth a blast of flaying,
scouring winds packed with jagged metal and the red sand of the Hell of Being Skinned Alive. This becomes a weapon which she directs against her foes.
System: Reflexively spend 1 Essence to call forth the red wind of Hell for a scene. This is a weapon which may be directed with Dexterity + Athletics (diffi- culty 5) to aim the attack. The flaying wind has a dam- age rating of 8 (lethal) and a range of 60.
Alternately, the Infernal may use an action and spend 1 Essence to create a massive blast of scouring sands driven by supersonic winds, centered on a point anywhere within her line of sight. Everyone within (Es- sence rating x 5) yards of the blast's epicenter suffers 10 dice of lethal damage, including the Infernal herself if she sets the attack off too close.
Signature Effect: When the Infernal dons her Shintai form, it comes into the world accompanied by a blinding, choking sandstorm. Anyone caught in the storm without sufficient protection (such as motorcy-
cle leathers, a werewolf's thick fur, or some form of protective magic) suffers one level of bashing damage per minute, alongside a –2 penalty to all rolls.
AoE mode costs an entire mote each time you use it on something, it isn't included in the scene long effect.

It's dramatically less efficient and only really offers a threat in single target mode if you're targeting a mortal.
None of this is true.

Sandblast Strike rolls at a lower DC than Melee; its a Dexterity 4 + Athletics 2 roll at DC5, with a range of 60 yards .
MHM throwing shit rolls at DC6 or higher, with a smaller dice pool to boot, and less range; average dice pool of 5 (Intelligence + Occult at DC6 roll) translates to a Throwing range of 25 yards.

And no, MHM does not get to attack multiple times in a turn to simulate an AoE attack.

You make mechanical claims without checking your mechanics.
You really shouldnt.
MHM has infinite range and we've basically gotten to the point where it nearly matches out melee rolls dice wise if it's buffed. Even ignoring hitting people with things it's basically an infinite range pinpoint accuracy grenade launcher. We can just drag whatever payload we want right to to the target.
 
None of this is true.

Sandblast Strike rolls at a lower DC than Melee; its a Dexterity 4 + Athletics 2 roll at DC5, with a range of 60 yards .
MHM throwing shit rolls at DC6 or higher, with a smaller dice pool to boot, and less range; average dice pool of 5 (Intelligence + Occult at DC6 roll) translates to a Throwing range of 25 yards.

And no, MHM does not get to attack multiple times in a turn to simulate an AoE attack.

You make mechanical claims without checking your mechanics.
You really shouldnt.
None of this is true

MHM rolls Intelligence 4 + Occult 5 Doubled by Excellency = 18 Dice DC6 Average 8+ success. Can be used to pick up stuff and when picking up stuff to beat people with GM ruled it be buffed to deal Agg damage, with line of site range for all of this, so no range limits. And able to deal with groups by picking up massive boulders and whatnot to smash into an area for free

Sandblast strike rolls Dexterity 4 + Athletics 2 no Exellency = 6 dice DC5 = average 3+ success a trivial amount to dodge for any enemy. Limited to 60 yards ranged, and GM ruled cannot be boosted to Agg. And cost a mote per use of it AOE option.

You make mechanical claims without checking your mechanics.
You really shouldn't.
 
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Honestly, I think the Crafting Doc is clearly still a work in progress and I'd not take the extremes of it, if only to avoid adding too many automatic defenses or immunities that are normally limited by either XP or Essence-cost.

My plan also has Lore of Humanity 1; indeed, I was the one advocating for it.


What do you want Olivia to have?
My plan does have her prioritizing a Stamina upgrade from Lash for her. I just didnt want to fuck up her build, and by the time enough people had voted, I dont want to change anything significant there.


Whats your issue with the Clone charm, if I may ask?
-[X]Lash: 11xp
--[X]Investment: Fomor Power: Numbing 1: +3HL + wound penalty negation [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
--[X]Investment: Special Advantage 6: Regrowth: [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
--[X]Investment: Special Advantage 5: Soak Aggravated Damage [Lore of Flesh 5, permanent]
--[X]Lore of Light 2: Bend Light: 5 XP
--[X]Occult Aptitude: 3XP
--[X]Countermagic 1/4(Spirit): 3xp
Lash does not get the LoH in your plan though?

About Olivia, maybe Iron Mountain 2?
Every bit of it improves all other soak she gets, so it's great synergy with having Lash tune her up.
Suddenly she goes from nearly normal human squishiness to being tougher than Rocky in a pricefight.

As for the Clones, I'm not a fan of having more than one Molly around.
I'm not a fan of circumventing the inherent risks and weaknesses of the Charm by making the Clones Formor, or even granting them access to our passive Charms, they should be human (since them being human enough to Exalt and become their own person is a possible plotpoint of the original).
I'm not a fan of the fact that we are creating non-Exalted people who have to bear the risks of being Molly, and of being possibly killed when we die and replace one.
 
MHM has infinite range and we've basically gotten to the point where it nearly matches out melee rolls dice wise if it's buffed. Even ignoring hitting people with things it's basically an infinite range pinpoint accuracy grenade launcher. We can just drag whatever payload we want right to to the target.
It is only line of sight when used directly as a strike, and at that point it will only do Bashing.
When used to throw stuff, it uses the rules of throwing, and with 5 dice acting as both its dice pool and its strength rating, it has a range of 25 yards.
 
Ah.
Its not the first thats been banned for breaking the system either. As applied to the PCs, this would.
At least in the Dresdenverse
I don't agree. Crafting is difficult enough without nerfs raining from the sky at random and this has been extensively discussed prior to our use of it. This seems like you want to change the rules on us to enforce a role on crafting that wasn't really intended.


1) Respectfully disagree that pointing out RAW and RAI is misleading
I quoted DP killing that idea earlier. You can argue the point, but presenting it as a done deal when the current rule at play is the opposite is misleading.
2) And at a 40 yard AoE for the 1m cost when used by an Essence 4 Exalt, unless you can reflexively move more than 40 yards in a combat turn, its gonna hit.
Besides, the AoE mode is supposed to remove multiple attackers. You generally dont use it on one person.
Our mote budget is always tight and that AoE mode has a lot of practical limits on its application. I don't see why it wouldn't largely be soaked in the cases where we don't have to deal with friendlies in the strike zone.

This and the single target mode will hurt mortals, but whamps for example can walk off losing limbs to shotguns. This is going to do substantially less than that on average.
 
As for the Clones, I'm not a fan of having more than one Molly around.
I'm not a fan of circumventing the inherent risks and weaknesses of the Charm by making the Clones Formor, or even granting them access to our passive Charms, they should be human (since them being human enough to Exalt and become their own person is a possible plotpoint of the original).
I'm not a fan of the fact that we are creating non-Exalted people who have to bear the risks of being Molly, and of being possibly killed when we die and replace one.
As far as I remember the most popular Charm variant was the one that should eventually turn her "clones" into 3rd Circle Demons - Molly's Intimacies.
As in they won't be separate persons, more like parts of Molly's psyche externalised.
 
It is only line of sight when used directly as a strike, and at that point it will only do Bashing.
When used to throw stuff, it uses the rules of throwing, and with 5 dice acting as both its dice pool and its strength rating, it has a range of 25 yards.
It's line of sight to pick things up and move them around, throwing is a specific action to impart force like flipping a car.

mind-hand manipulation (••)
The Infernal combines conviction and Essence to
bend the world around her to her implacable will. A faint shimmer in the air marks the use of this power as she lifts and moves objects telekinetically.
System: After a moment spent in concentration, the Infernal spends 1 Essence and rolls her Intelli- gence + Occult against difficulty 6. This Charm re- mains active for the rest of the scene, and allows her to telekinetically lift and move objects within her line of sight. If she tries to wrest an object away from an- other character, or perform fine manipulations, her successes form her dice pool to do so. Otherwise, her successes on the activation roll determine her strength in lifting and moving objects:
The relevant part of the charm. Moving things within your line of sight doesn't say anything about a limit to how far you can move things.
 
Mana Manipulation makes sense, as does Mind Shields.
Clairvoyance kinda needs better mental defenses; there's things that break minds to see in the Dresden Files, and she doesnt have any organic defenses.

She cant expand her chi pool AFAIK; you need to upgrade her Jade Talisman.
Psychoportation is meant to work together with Clairvoyance to allow her to bypass line of sight, and infiltrate and move across the battlefield better.
I'm still skeptical on the utility of these for us. Most scenarios where this isn't already covered by existing abilities should be better covered by murdering the caster at range.
Counterspelling is energy free, which is useful. And it includes unweaving, which allows disassembly of existing effects.
 
Picking up an object is a grapple. Unopposed, but still takes up your turn action.
You do this with the activation successes from your Intelligence + Occult roll at DC6 as your dice pool; thats an average of 5 dice. Then throwing it is another turn, rolled at not sure, but assume DC6 or higher.

So the process of throwing something takes two combat turns, and can still be dodged or parried.
Just grappling the person is 1 turn and 9 dice, same as a Melee roll, with the difference that the Melee roll is lethal, while the grapple is bashing.
I don't know which rule book you're using but that is not how picking up objects works. It's not a grapple you just pick it up and you make a if not automatic action then reflexive roll to lift it. Considering MindHand Manipulation has a static strength that does not fluctuate past its activation look at the weight chart how many pounds that activation is capable of lifting automatically assume that if it's an object below that it can lift it if it's not it can't so no roll necessary.

Also Mind Hand manipulation doesn't rely on releasing an object it would be a roll to hit the person with the object considering large stones of his strength + 3 bashing damage and I'm going by Mage 20 here but objects greater than that per size category inflict plus one additional damage per Mass so things like everything from a dirt bike motorcycle to an ATV would do strength + 3 damage. Anything heavier from a Jeep to a police interceptor would do base strength + 4 anything larger from a limo to an 18-wheeler would do strength + 6.

So here we go from that we are looking at anywhere from large Rock to a SUV doing anywhere from strength + 3 to strength + 6 damage before extra successes from a pool that is capable of being buffed by an Excellency. Mind Hand manipulation does not have a pool of Five dice it has a pool of nine at base Dragon Paradox didn't feel the need to make us invest in Brawl just to use an additional ability when melee or Occult would do.

All at difficulty five such as a large Stone. This all also seems that we don't just grab something inherently lethal or just using additional action and The Willpower to TTC to flatten or twist an object like a light post into something lethal and swing it using mind hand manipulation.
 
Honestly, I think the Crafting Doc is clearly still a work in progress and I'd not take the extremes of it, if only to avoid adding too many automatic defenses or immunities that are normally limited by either XP or Essence-cost.
It's one thing to kill weird interactions, but this is a core part of a feature and one we've made extensive use of IC. Also worth noting that it's highly dependent on information control. The user is immune as long as they're only being acted on from one angle, a multi element attack is downgraded a damage type instead.

Which is very good, but on a practical combat level you can still incapacitate and effectively win by knock out that way. Which is itself pretty DF friendly. There are plenty of things that are basically god mode until you know their trick, at which point they're still a bitch to fight but are still beatable.


Counterspelling is energy free, which is useful. And it includes unweaving, which allows disassembly of existing effects
We have a potion for standing effects. If we just carry around our potions like alchemists are supposed to we'd be fine.
 
None of this is true

MHM rolls Intelligence 4 + Occult 5 Doubled by Excellency = 18 Dice DC6 Average 8+ success. Can be used to pick up stuff and when throwing GM ruled it be buffed to deal Agg damage, with line of site range for all of this, so no range limits. And able to deal with groups by picking up massive boulders and whatnot to smash into an area for free

Sandblast strike rolls Dexterity 4 + Athletics 2 no Exellency = 6 dice DC5 = average 3+ success a trivial amount to dodge for any enemy. Limited to 60 years, ranged, and GM ruled cannot be boosted to Agg. And cost a mote per use of it AOE option.

You make mechanical claims without checking your mechanics.
You really shouldn't.
MHM can be activated with an Excellency for 2m, which gives you an average pool of successes of 9 (18 dice rolled at DC6)
DC6 is the default attack roll, but I think its higher for an improvised weapon like a random object.
Thats still a range of, at best, 45 yards (Strength*5)

Sandstrike Blast rolls 4 successes. (Dex 4 + Athletics 2 at DC5 = 3.6 successes, rounded up)
For comparison, Dex 4 + Melee 5 at 6DC averages 5 successes ( 4.5 successes, rounded up)

Theres good reasons why we dont routinely use MHM as an offensive weapon since buying it.

It's line of sight to pick things up and move them around, throwing is a specific action to impart force like flipping a car.

The relevant part of the charm. Moving things within your line of sight doesn't say anything about a limit to how far you can move things.
Not for the M20/V20 line.
Throwing uses throwing rules, like range and lifting.
Relevant section in ExWoD:
System: After a moment spent in concentration, the Infernal spends 1 Essence and rolls her Intelli- gence + Occult against difficulty 6. This Charm re- mains active for the rest of the scene, and allows her to telekinetically lift and move objects within her line of sight. If she tries to wrest an object away from an- other character, or perform fine manipulations, her successes form her dice pool to do so. Otherwise, her successes on the activation roll determine her strength in lifting and moving objects:
Throwing range is Strength*5 for a throwing weapon.
That is affected by the weight of the weapon, mind, which is why a bloodbuffed Red cant simply chuck a motorcycle as a throwing weapon across a football field.

I'd have to open the M20/V20 books to see how that scales down for heavier objects, but its going to drastically drop it.
I'll get back to you on the details; I looked them up before.
 
MHM can be activated with an Excellency for 2m, which gives you an average pool of successes of 9 (18 dice rolled at DC6)
DC6 is the default attack roll, but I think its higher for an improvised weapon like a random object.
Thats still a range of, at best, 45 yards (Strength*5)

Sandstrike Blast rolls 4 successes. (Dex 4 + Athletics 2 at DC5 = 3.6 successes, rounded up)
For comparison, Dex 4 + Melee 5 at 6DC averages 5 successes ( 4.5 successes, rounded up)

Theres good reasons why we dont routinely use MHM as an offensive weapon since buying it.


Not for the M20/V20 line.
Throwing uses throwing rules, like range and lifting.
Relevant section in ExWoD:

Throwing range is Strength*5 for a throwing weapon.
That is affected by the weight of the weapon, mind, which is why a bloodbuffed Red cant simply chuck a motorcycle as a throwing weapon across a football field.

I'd have to open the M20/V20 books to see how that scales down for heavier objects, but its going to drastically drop it.
I'll get back to you on the details; I looked them up before.
That's not how the charm works though as far as I understand it.

It gives her an infinite length arm, moving things with it is picking them up, not throwing them. Throwing is an action we can take to send it out of our grip with force, like tossing it around a corner or something.

The charm doesn't say anything about it being a throw at range and none of the manipulation comments make sense in that context.
 
Theres good reasons why we dont routinely use MHM as an offensive weapon since buying it.
Reasons that generally apply to Sand strike blast. We have good almost free options. Sandstike blast is heavily hampered by being linked to a non-key skill that we are unlikely to ever buy up.
 
That's not how the charm works though as far as I understand it.

It gives her an infinite length arm, moving things with it is picking them up, not throwing them. Throwing is an action we can take to send it out of our grip with force, like tossing it around a corner or something.

The charm doesn't say anything about it being a throw at range and none of the manipulation comments make sense in that context.

You are correct, there is a reason the charm uses Brawl or for you guys Melee and not Athletics or Firearms.
 
Yeah. Sandstrike blast was the reason why. I switched.

Do not like Yogs vote but at least we get some use out of them.
 
Both plans have parts I don't like, but since they both have the clone charm I wanted and I don't have any truly strong feelings about it, I won't make any complaints. I just want to see the next update and make plans (I'm going to advocate hard to make the rumor mill and finish the Forge).

@DragonParadox don't forget those changes you said you would make to make our servants more useful.
The thing about AP is it represents what you can do, not what other people can do for you. I do get what you are saying and I'll see what we can do about providing more depth to your actions going forward.

More on this tomorrow, it's...*checks* 1 AM for me.
 
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Both plans have parts I don't like, but since they both have the clone charm I wanted and I don't have any truly strong feelings about it, I won't make any complaints. I just want to see the next update and make plans (I'm going to advocate hard to make the rumor mill and finish the Forge).

@DragonParadox don't forget those changes you said you would make to make our servants more useful.

I'll keep it in mind

BTW though if you guys choose SGI the next update will not be the plan, it will be explaining how Molly became twins to her parents :V
 
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