Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1) assuming the charm effects persist and that they're interested in paying attention.

2) Nobody has managed to reliably game this algorithm if it's anything so simple as that. Literally the guy who made it couldn't pick who got them once they were loose by design.

This is one of those functionally impossible things that can't be forced with any degree of certainty unless you remake the exaltations entirely. Which has only been done with the aid of the creators of the universe.
I feel differently. What can't be done is changing the selection criteria. That's by design. What can be done is manipulating the candidate pool in order to maximize the chances of a specific viable candidate receiving the exaltation. This here is where I believe both the disagreement and misunderstanding of what I am proposing are coming from. I am not proposing we try to alter the exaltation, or mess with it. What I am proposing is that we study it (via the crown and other means) and arrange the situation so a person we approve of is the best possible candidate.

If we take a throwaway passage in the Fair Folk book as gospel, something like this has been done to the very first Chosen:
At first, the raksha did not know why the gods of Creation
did this. They watched as scores of the most powerful gods
and elemental beings selected and separated out a fraction of
humanity based on bizarre criteria. More raksha gathered as
those gods pulled off one piece of each human's soul, changed
it intrinsically in some unfathomable way and put it back in
place. The gods gave their chosen and altered humans gifts
that interacted with Creation's Essence flows. They trained
their chosen in how to utilize those gifts, always preparing
for… some momentous event that the raksha could not
guess at. The watchers wondered for years what that event
might be before the answer came. For no reason the raksha
could name, every member of the Primordial Host (save two)
poured suddenly into their Creation. When the Primordials
arrived, the humans whom the gods had altered made war
against them.
Yes but i am comparing their biggest act, creation of Creation, to the mages universe. Narratively it is exactly right for its story.
If you want to go that way, in Graceful Wicked Masques - The Fair Folk book, the length of Creation's border is described as "an infinitely long fiber of solid reality", so there's an argument that Creation was initially infinite (a subset of the infinity that is the Wyld, which makes sense). Also, there's this part of description from the same book:
The raksha
watched, rapt, as more Primordials fell and others were
enslaved. They cheered again as one of the most fanatical
Primordials sacrificed a portion of itself in an attempt to
destroy Creation rather than cede it to humanity and the
gods. The chancre contracted to a size many thousands of
times smaller than its original as concepts and constructs
were eradicated, and the raksha dragged the Wyld back

into the emptiness left in its wake. When the fighting was
over, Creation was much diminished, and all but a mere
handful of the Primordials were either dead or sealed away
in a place the raksha did not know. And none of it would
have been possible without the strange, compelling power
conferred upon humanity.
It was also impossible to physically travel from Creation to the Wyld before Three Spheres Cataclysm, which implies spatial looping, or infinite size or some other manner of prevention:
Those raksha with longer attention spans stayed close
around Creation, studying the new form it had taken. They
found its center to be denser and more structurally stable,
but many of the protective layers that had once confounded
raksha intrusion had been stripped away or changed such

that they now served different purposes. Taking hold of the
shinma Nirvikalpa, which defines the principle of commu-
nication, the raksha could now attract the attention of the
human beings within Creation and lure them out toward
the fringes. So much had Creation changed that humans
who were brave or determined enough could now walk out

of Creation altogether and enter the Wyld. Their passage
carried them outward through Nirakara and undermined
the stability of their forms, which revealed to the astonished
raksha the glorious beauty of the essential nature and will
of humanity.
We also know that Autchtonia by itself is vastly larger than modern Creation (Exalted 2E - Compass of Celestial Directions Vol. 6 -Autochthonia):
The inhabitants of the Great Maker's body call their
world Autochthonia, and themselves Autochthonians.
Autochthonia is a rough spheroid of unknown dimen-
sions; no Autochthonian has ever pierced the outer shell
of their world to attempt to measure it. The Machine
God's interior is much larger than his armored hull, in
any case; his anatomy incorporates space-folding magic
beyond the ken of any but the most erudite First Age
savants. It's enough to say that Autochthonia is vast be-
yond imagining, that entire Directions of Creation could
disappear into it without difficulty.
It stands to reason that original Creation was vaster than what Autochton made of himself and by himself.
Its scattered bits Things like dreams of the first Age and thr malfeas book.
I am not seeing the description of the War in Dreams of the First Age or Compass of Celestial Directions Vol. 5 - Malfeas. Dreams of the First Age starts at the end of the War, and Malfeas book has this to say about it:
After the gods tired of their enslavement and cre-
ated the Exalted to battle their Primordial masters, a
war unlike any other began. Countless mortals died,
and the race of the Dragon Kings was all but wiped
out. The King of the Primordials led his kind against
the gods' Chosen in battles that shook Heaven and
Earth. In the end, several Primordials lay dead. The
Black Boar That Twists the Skies—Isidoros, who had
never known defeat—now lay half dead, his blood
drowning the armies of his conquerors. Oramus,
indefinable and terrible, now was held fast, bound
in his own wings. The fetich souls of Adrián and
the Primordials' king were killed in battle or soon
after, thus changing their very natures. The other
surviving Primordials looked at their devastated
armies and the terrible wounds they had been dealt
and surrendered. Along with the Primordials, vari-
ous behemoths and those things that would become
demons were rounded up. Many were slaughtered by
the Exalted, but others were kept prisoner—their final
fate to be decided when the gods passed judgment
on their masters. And so, with the curses of the slain
Primordials still echoing in their ears, the Chosen
ended the war victorious.
 
Apart from, say, the person who built an artifact that uploaded the wearer's personality into a Celestial Exaltation when they die and so it would then bodyjack the next person to earn the Exaltation?
Cite please?
I do not recall this in Exalted 2E. There is, I think, something of the sort for Terrestrial Exaltations associated with some sort of lake, but not for Celestial Exaltations.

Or the living Primordials who learned how to change the targeting mechanism and attach them to a demon who could act as a guidance and gatekeeping system, or the Neverborn who could make Abyssals with a similar gate.
They still dont get to decide for the Exaltation.
They managed to tweak a couple variables on the selection criteria, It does out and it makes its own decisions, and both the Neverborn and Yozi are stuck with who the Exaltation chooses.

Do you not think it they had as much control as you say, that they would pick Yozi cultists, or death cultists, instead of randos?



They don't. That's not how it works at all. There was some fluff for Black Wind which erroneously implied it did, but it was clarified in the Companion book. Demon Chi regenerates once a day, rolling the P'o rating against a base difficulty of 6 and recovering a number of points equal to successes.

That's the only way a Dhampyr can recover Demon Chi. A rogue not!akuma who has somehow managed to get P'o 3 and so Black Wind 3 can take four actions in a turn and then will be out of Demon Chi until that evening, and it probably takes a couple of days to refill the tank until they can do it again.
1)Can I please get a citation?
Because I have KOTE Core, and thats what it says.

2) Not dhampyr, more not!akuma.
Thats what happens when a not!Hell Queen sticks a shard of its power inside you and uses it to awaken your Po.


No, wrong.
All mortals are mages, they just don't know how to do magic as an active thing.
No, thats not true.
Sleepers, by definition, are not Mages. They can be if they Awaken, but they are not.


Just needed entropy 9 like the artifact made it.
He is Arete 9, not Entropy 9, and the Pasupatta Astra did not make him Entropy 9
He tricked and vored the Yama Queen Tou Mu, and used her stolen divinity to claim the weapon-focus, which allegedly belonged to Shiva. As far as I know he didnt gain any Spheres or Arete from doing so.

I can make baseless assertions too. The primordials war wouldn't have wrecked everyone's shit if your assertion of primordials supremacy was true.
It doesn't make both our statements true.
The Primordials surrendered. They didnt fight to the death.
And the war required the active help of two Primordials and millions of troops, in addition to the hundreds of respawning Celestial Exaltations who got reaped like wheat. There's a reason no Exalt who saw the war start saw its end.

By comparison? There were entire Horizon Realms that got wrecked by the Avatar Storm. Horizon Realms with multiple archmages gone. Void Adaptation happened to the people cut off, and they became nonhuman; none of the archmages had the power to prevent it. The Technocracy lost vast chunks of their infrastructure, and havent been able to recover it ever since.

These arent comparable scenarios sir.


That area is still less than the size of solar system.
I think you aren't gorking how complex and big actual universes are in comparison to a limited to creation.
Artemis addresses this so I dont have to.
 
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She isn't greeting us as Prince of the Earth. I am fairly sure she is mistaking us for Ligier in that text you quoted. I am fairly sure that Mab got a very distorted understanding of what exalted in general are, much less what Infernals are. I still say that we should get some manner of focus for her at some point, and use it to learn what she knows.
Prince of the Earth is a term for Exalt.
If you are referring to an Infernal specifically, you might choose to use different language. She most definitely wasnt mistaking Essence 3 Molly for an E9/E10 3rd Circle Demon.
Ligier would be at a minimum a peer of Mab, if not a peer of the Mothers. And he was very male.

Her information might be incomplete, but it hasnt been inaccurate so far.
A thought - this is incredibly petty, but should we not be able to use BMI to get appearance 5? Maybe requiring some practice, but in principle this sounds doable.
Not petty; Appearance matters as a social attribute, and IC to a teenage girl.
However, I doubt it.

Appearance is as much about carriage as it is about looks. If it was just purely physical we could ask Lash to help, but it isnt.
We could make Molly look like other high-Appearance people by simply copying them, but I dont think we could make a higher Appearance Molly; that part she either has to figure out herself, or have someone with magic figure it out for her.

At least thats my understanding.

Lash would need Lore of Transfiguration 5 to permanently alter Molly's appearance attribute.
And the math doesnt really work well enough to make it worthwhile atm compared to simply upgrading her directly; taking Molly from Appearance 2 to 5 would cost (8+12+16=)36XP, while buying Transfiguration 5 would cost (7+5+10+15+20 =) 57XP.
 
No, thats not true.
Sleepers, by definition, are not Mages. They can be if they Awaken, but they are not.
No they all have avatars that define reality, that is how the consensus emerges. They are definitionaly mages.
He is Arete 9, not Entropy 9, and the Pasupatta Astra did not make him Entropy 9
He tricked and vored the Yama Queen Tou Mu, and used her stolen divinity to claim the weapon-focus, which allegedly belonged to Shiva. As far as I know he didnt gain any Spheres or Arete from doing so
Pretty sure he increased his entropy rating. I will have to check the book once i get back home.

Edit:Just checked the wiki and becoming the grand harvester does increase his entropy.

and that isn't even ths cap for mages they can be stronger still, like the unnamed.
By comparison? There were entire Horizon Realms that got wrecked by the Avatar Storm. Horizon Realms with multiple archmages gone. Void Adaptation happened to the people cut off, and they became nonhuman; none of the archmages had the power to prevent it. The Technocracy lost vast chunks of their infrastructure, and havent been able to recover it ever since.

These arent comparable scenarios sir.
They very much are. In fact the mages event is even more impressive.

The Primordials were defeated by brute force while it required fundamental changing of the laws of physics to affect the mages.

And you are acting like the avatar storm ended the mages. That is not the case, void engineers are still fighting out there is space against thos disembodidd spirits and mages still are ascending and visiting the spirit world. New horizon realms are being created despite the avatar storm.
 
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Not petty; Appearance matters as a social attribute, and IC to a teenage girl.
However, I doubt it.

Appearance is as much about carriage as it is about looks. If it was just purely physical we could ask Lash to help, but it isnt.
We could make Molly look like other high-Appearance people by simply copying them, but I dont think we could make a higher Appearance Molly; that part she either has to figure out herself, or have someone with magic figure it out for her.

At least thats my understanding.

Lash would need Lore of Transfiguration 5 to permanently alter Molly's appearance attribute.
And the math doesnt really work well enough to make it worthwhile atm compared to simply upgrading her directly; taking Molly from Appearance 2 to 5 would cost (8+12+16=)36XP, while buying Transfiguration 5 would cost (7+5+10+15+20 =) 57XP.
Personally, I would model the lack of correct bearing as a malus, i.e. if you have 5 magical dots in appearance due to BMI, your effective rating is 4 dots or something like that. I'd also like to point out that Molly does have the bearing of a true queen. And Lash has Lore of Flesh 5, which can add physical attributes and "features". Speaking of - @DragonParadox if Molly designs a novel organ using exalted crafting (some variant of Arcana crafting probably), would Lash be able to make and implant it using Lore of Flesh 5? This seems like a plausible collaboration.
 
Personally, I would model the lack of correct bearing as a malus, i.e. if you have 5 magical dots in appearance due to BMI, your effective rating is 4 dots or something like that. I'd also like to point out that Molly does have the bearing of a true queen. And Lash has Lore of Flesh 5, which can add physical attributes and "features". Speaking of - @DragonParadox if Molly designs a novel organ using exalted crafting (some variant of Arcana crafting probably), would Lash be able to make and implant it using Lore of Flesh 5? This seems like a plausible collaboration.

Oh yeah, Lash can do things with Medicine that no regular doctor could or would. :V
 
Oh yeah, Lash can do things with Medicine that no regular doctor could or would. :V
They shall be our finest warriors, these men people who give themselves to us. Like clay we shall mould them and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall we clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines such that no foe can best them in battle. They are our bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are our Space Hell Marines and they shall know no fear.

Molly should be nerd enough to have the idea, I think.
 
@DragonParadox I assume you don't want to rule on particular charms until it's actually time to vote on them, but would you mind giving some input on the rough direction for this SGI alternative?

The first of all acts was to name. Each titan tearing themselves from the roiling chaos and defining themselves against it. A fact that no debasement could ever wholly take from them.

Echoing that act their heirs turn their hands on their own souls; naming each part according to their own design, thereby becoming in small part like those spoke themselves into being.

System:
The infernal spends 5 essence and meditates for at least one scene, turning inwards to look at their own soul. Once there, she must make a willpower roll to search her own memories for something that defines her.

It can be nearly anything; important memories, strong beliefs, trauma, what matters is that it's true and personal to the exalt. This can be very unpleasant, and lower successes should result in facing less comfortable things.

Whatever she finds, the infernal then names and begins the process of shaping into a new facet of her soul. She may have no more than her essence rating of these. If one is destroyed its body dissolves into iron wind, and the element of her soul it embodies is numbed in whatever manner is appropriate until she repeats this ritual at +1 DC to find and reform it.

If the infernal dies instead her essence manifests as screaming wind and flees to the nearest clone, killing it in her place. This wounds the infernal's spirit, dropping her one essence level that may not be regained by any means before she reforms the facet she replaced.

Once named facets may be embodied or dispelled with a thought, supposing they aren't currently destroyed and are in the infernal's presence, but she must pay 1 mote to copy over any memories directly.

As they are subordinate faces of the infernal's soul she may not use her charms through them to directly affect the world. However, as they are still part of her they may still affect themselves.

In general this means abilities that solely impact the infernal and do not rely on active interaction. The infernal may not use excellency through a clone any more than she may fire a shotgun with her nose, but can defend any part of her 'face' with equal strength. When doing so they share the infernal's essence pool.

By default the clones form as an approximation of the infernal as a mortal, perfectly loyal to its creator, fully aware of what it is, and in possession of her memories. However, for the same resource investment as making one outright she may invest them with the appropriate number of arcana features.

If the infernal has a hell they may spend one arcana feature point to provide an emanation style return function. By spending one willpower they may vanish in a burst of flaying wind to return to her hell. This counts as a clone death for the purposes of the charm, save for that it does not numb the associated elements of the infernal's soul as the facet slides smoothly back into place.

I mostly just want to know if there are any glaring red flags with enough lead time to fix them before the next build vote.



1) assuming the charm effects persist and that they're interested in paying attention.

2) Nobody has managed to reliably game this algorithm if it's anything so simple as that. Literally the guy who made it couldn't pick who got them once they were loose by design.

This is one of those functionally impossible things that can't be forced with any degree of certainty unless you remake the exaltations entirely. Which has only been done with the aid of the creators of the universe.

Just noticed this, the charm seems fine. I'll probably copy over some of the wind thematic, but mechanic wise I do not see any issue with it.
 
1)Can I please get a citation?
Because I have KOTE Core, and thats what it says.

2) Not dhampyr, more not!akuma.
Thats what happens when a not!Hell Queen sticks a shard of its power inside you and uses it to awaken your Po.
On this, can you cite?

I am asking as I previously looked it up and never found how Demon Chi regenerated other than time and meditation.
 
Cite please?
I do not recall this in Exalted 2E. There is, I think, something of the sort for Terrestrial Exaltations associated with some sort of lake, but not for Celestial Exaltations.
Here you go!
Dominica's Mantle said:
Scroll of Exalts (Pg. 85), Classified as N/A Artifact

This gauzy, iridescent cloak flutters without regard for wind and bears an ornate silver clasp emblazoned with emeralds and arcane glyphs. Upon its wearer's death, he may reflexively spend one Willpower point as his last action to fray the garment into an abstract paradox that snarls itself into the weave of existence. The cloak then reforms at a new location determined by unknowable principles. If the wearer's next life looks hard and long enough, circumstances inevitably arrange for him to find Domnica's Mantle again, though it is up to him to do what is necessary to reclaim it.

The death of a Celestial Exalt releases her Exaltation, but it ignores the pull of Lytek's cabinet (or Monstrance or Lillun's womb) to seek out a suitable host on its own in accordance with Autochthon's design. Upon the Second Breath of a new Celestial, the personality and memories of the Mantle's wearer utterly subsume the new incarnation, bypassing the unnecessary formality of Lytek sanctifying the union of Exaltation and soul. The new Celestial fully remembers her last life, restoring her Motivation and Intimacies, but otherwise possesses the traits of her newly Exalted body in addition to a permanent Mentor 5 reflecting the core of her memory. She can draw upon this memory to teach herself any traits she used to possess in any prior incarnation given to Domnica's Mantle. The Storyteller may waive experience costs to allow a character who dies mid-series to restore herself and catch up to other protagonists. She still remembers her new body's life prior to Exaltation and retains that life's Intimacies, but the experiences seem hazy, like a vivid dream.

For a wearer lacking a Celestial Exaltation, the mantle carries her soul through Lethe to be reborn into a new life that fits whatever criteria the wearer desires, subject to Storyteller approval. This can include location, gender, social status and even supernatural heritage, such as divine blood or an infant destined to be a Dragon-Blood. It is not possible to pick a life that will receive Celestial Exaltation. The new life begins no sooner than a year from the death of the wearer. At some point in the reincarnation's adolescence, the personality of the former life reasserts itself with the same mechanical effects as possession by a Celestial Exaltation explained above.
At least I think this is the right one.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 5, 2024 at 8:47 AM, finished with 172 posts and 18 votes.
 
Yes i was just justifying why mages should be able to mess with exaltation.
They should not be able to all Exalted shards are protected by the best defenses of Autocrons along side his own flaw of invulnerability. That being if you don't fully destroy the exaltation it will rebuild itself stronger if you manage to mess with it all. And the only weakness in the shard that anybody could hit was the Death curse of Neverborn, and the only hook their Death curse managed was by technically improving the exaltation shard in a way that was negative for the hosts.
 
They should not be able to all Exalted shards are protected by the best defenses of Autocrons along side his own flaw of invulnerability. That being if you don't fully destroy the exaltation it will rebuild itself stronger if you manage to mess with it all. And the only weakness in the shard that anybody could hit was the Death curse of Neverborn, and the only hook their Death curse managed was by technically improving the exaltation shard in a way that was negative for the hosts.
I mean i can't repeat my arguments so i guess thats not worth repeating.


But lets talk exalted, alchemicals specifically, the exaltation that fairly skilled but still mortals can build. It is something they have learned.

So exaltations are explicitly sonething that can be understood by mortals. Sure they aren't solars but they are still in the same range.

If the grestest mortal craftsmen trained by autchonia then mages surely can do it as well.
 
I mean i can't repeat my arguments so i guess thats not worth repeating.


But lets talk exalted, alchemicals specifically, the exaltation that fairly skilled but still mortals can build. It is something they have learned.

So exaltations are explicitly sonething that can be understood by mortals. Sure they aren't solars but they are still in the same range.

If the grestest mortal craftsmen trained by autchonia then mages surely can do it as well.
Actually fundamentally agree with you but only Alchemicals chassis are built by mortal hands the actual exaltation is controlled / administered by Auto's system.
 
So exaltations are explicitly sonething that can be understood by mortals. Sure they aren't solars but they are still in the same range.

If the grestest mortal craftsmen trained by autchonia then mages surely can do it as well.
They cannot Solar's vastly better then any Autchonia could ever hope to be could not figure out Exalted shards. They are just mortals blessed/empowered by autchon, and even they do not understand what Exalted are, they are just following plans without any understanding. If they had any actual understanding autchonia would no be having the huge problems it does as they would just remove the problem from the Exalted that is causing the problems in the first place.
 
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But lets talk exalted, alchemicals specifically, the exaltation that fairly skilled but still mortals can build. It is something they have learned.
Actually, on this, it is mortals, touched by Auto-Kun that make it and it is explicitly said that they cannot repeat the feat. So each Alchemical Exaltation is unique.
 
They cannot Solar's vastly better then any Autchonia could ever hope to be could not figure out Exalted shards. They are just mortals blessed/empowered by autchon, and even they do not understand what Exalted are, they are just following plans without any understanding. If they had any actual understanding autchonia would no be having the huge problems it does as they would just remove the problem from the Exalted that is causing the problems in the first place.
Sure but it is possible to understand them, since they can follow the steps. You can't make a complex superweapon following a plan without understanding.
Actually, on this, it is mortals, touched by Auto-Kun that make it and it is explicitly said that they cannot repeat the feat. So each Alchemical Exaltation is unique.
Sure but mortals can do it and mages are superior than them.
 
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Sure but it is possible to understand them, since they can follow the steps. You can't make a complex superweapon following a plan without understanding.
You are equivocating heavily on "understand" here. A billion people can follow the steps to post on Twitter, how many would you say "understand" how Twitter works?
 
Sure but it is possible to understand them, since they can follow the steps. You can't make a complex superweapon following a plan without understanding.

Sure but mortals can do it and mages are superior than them.
I don't like the Demiurge Merit on principle but as far as Canon goes they don't understand anything actually. Essentially a spark of Auto's Consciousness takes over their bodies and then lights up the chassis of any Alchemical they built.
 
You are equivocating heavily on "understand" here. A billion people can follow the steps to post on Twitter, how many would you say "understand" how Twitter works?
Thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands. There are so so many Computer professionals on twitter bro. Like so many.
I don't like the Demiurge Merit on principle but as far as Canon goes they don't understand anything actually. Essentially a spark of Auto's Consciousness takes over their bodies and then lights up the chassis of any Alchemical they built.

You aren't getting my point. It is step by step process that can be done by a persons body. The fact that they don't understand it is fine. But it means it is made up of things people can interact with. If it can be observed and interacted then it can be reolicated.
 
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Sure but it is possible to understand them, since they can follow the steps. You can't make a complex superweapon following a plan without understanding.
Again nope autchonia problems are entirely do to problems with the Exalted. For reference autchonia is the one empowering the mortals to be able to build the exalted but autchonia is the primoridal of doing thing regardless of if it is the smart thing. Like autchonia has lobotomized himself. Autchonia also built a God who's purpose was to hit autchonia when he started doing dumb things, then managed to forget that Gods do not die when defeated despite he himself helping design how the Gods function, so when the god respawned he was really mad that autchonia had left without him.
 
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