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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Earth-Destroyer said:
Again nope autchonia problems are entirely do to problems with the Exalted. For reference autchonia is the one empowering the mortals to be able to build the exalted but autchonia is the primoridal of doing thing regardless of if it is the smart thing. Like autchonia has lobotomized himself. Autchonia also built a God who's purpose was to hit autchonia when he started doing dumb things, then managed to forget that Gods do not die when defeated despite he himself helping design how the Gods function.
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Yeah despite how people in this thread hype them up none of the primordials were particularly intelligent in anything other than their immediate theme. Auto is craftsmanship and improvement over time Construction. Tools, faith and Dogma not particularly anything to do with judgment or rulership or even thinking in general.
 
Acolyte said:
Sure but mortals can do it and mages are superior than them.
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So I went back and looked at the books. Here is what I found.

The PROCESS is known in 5 parts and guarded jealously.
If they UNDERSTAND the process or not is unclear.
The only limit in 2E is Resource and Souls.

CHOSEN OF THE MACHINE GOD
The Exalted of Autochthonia are like the Exalted of
Creation. They are men and women of great passion, epic
goals and enormous power. They drive their societies forward
through inspirational example, protect them with vast
strength and advise them with superhuman insight.
The Exalted of Autochthonia are not like the Exalted
of Creation. They are heroes from the annals of history
reborn in nigh-indestructible bodies made of brass and clay.
Their Charms are integrated wonders of industrial genius.
And where the Chosen of Creation rule over the teeming
masses of humanity, the Alchemicals are Champions of god
and state. They are Exalted to protect and serve.
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EXALTATION
The secret of Alchemical Exaltation is jealously guarded
by the Five Magnificent Sodalities of Penultimate Truth and
Intransigent Gospel, each of which possesses only a fifth of
the knowledge required to bring forth Champions of the
Machine God. Only by working together at the vats may new
Chosen be imbued with life and Exaltation, and only then
by unanimous vote of a National Tripartite Assembly.
The Pious Harvesters of the Hallowed Flesh know how
to create and process the alchemical broth in which the
bodies of the Exalted are cultured and catalyzed.
The Glorious Luminors of the Brilliant Rapture keep
the secret of the temperatures and cycles to which the broth
must be subjected for it to imbue its mystic benefits to the
nascent Exalt.
The Prolific Scholars of the Furnace Transcendent
understand the complex Essence technologies of the various
implants and Charms that grant the Alchemicals their
superhuman might, and it is they who forge those wonders
that will initially be incorporated into an Exalt's body.
The Meticulous Surgeons of the Body Electric are
trained in the all-important art of molding the flesh of the
Alchemical Exalted. They pack clay and wax and grease
around the implants of the Scholars, but this body is useless
without the Essence-catalyzing broth of the Harvesters or
the proper cultivation of the Luminors.
Finally, the Illustrious Conductors of the Consecrated
Veins alone understand how to properly affix a soulgem to
the Essence-infused frame the other Sodalities have crafted
and prepared.
These steps are not undertaken independently. Over the
course of eight months, the five Sodalities work together to
perform a complex ritual that joins enormous quantities of
the magical materials with exactingly machined parts, rare
clays and precisely brewed chemical concoctions to produce a
crude approximation of a human form. Next, in a painstaking
procedure requiring eight days to properly complete, a flawless
diamond soulgem is attached to the figure's brow. The valves
to the Exalt's Essence reservoir are then opened, and for the
next eight hours the Alchemical's Essence supply is ritually
purified with repeated straining and efficacious prayers until
no contaminants remain. Finally, an elaborate prayer lasting
eight minutes joins magical materials, clay, brass, Essence
and soul together into a living being. The Alchemical's eyes
open, her personality catalyzes and solidifies, and she rises
from the vats to begin her service to her nation.
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LIMITATIONS
Two factors restrict the frequency of Alchemical Exaltation.
The first is expense.
While the nature of the Exaltation ritual is such that it
is more cost-efficient to bring forth several new Champions
at once, it still represents an enormous investment on the
part of the Exalt's nation. Not only is the amount of raw
magical materials and exotic reagents required to construct
a single Exalt staggering, but because Autochthonia has
almost no natural stone deposits, the mixture of rare clays
that comprise their flesh are extremely difficult to come by.
Some are formed when jade deposits and machine parts are
slowly broken down by exposure to powerful acids, forming
a malleable, Essence-reactive sludge. Others are produced
by massive factory-engines deep in the bowels of the Pole of
Metal, where crushed crystal and oil are mixed together into
a thick slurry. Fine detailing work is done with a mixture of
dust and smoke from Autochthonian factories, mixed with
the blood and sweat of Populat workers. Gummy, naturally
occurring residue found in the Reaches adds bulk and helps
bind the mixture.
The second restriction is the availability of proper
souls. The Alchemical Exaltation will not catalyze properly
unless the soulgem affixed to the nascent Champion's forehead
contains a soul that has exhibited heroism worthy of
Celestial Exaltation, not simply once, but repeatedly across
multiple lifetimes. Each nation assigns historians to work
with the Luminors to track the previous incarnations of
particularly noteworthy individuals, attempting to compile
records of souls that might prove mighty enough to catalyze
an Alchemical. Incautious or inadequate selections inevitably
cause the Exaltation to fail, producing nothing more than a
staggeringly expensive lump of clay and brass.
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So as dumb as it sounds, a Solar would "Technically" be able to do it.

Alchemical Demiurge (Abomination): More than mere
combinations of souls and N/A-level artifacts, Autochthon's
Chosen are Exalted. The Essence technology that
enables the fusion of their spirits and bodies to create an
Exalt rather than a mere soul-bearing robot is as complicated
as any other Celestial Exaltation. The only being in
the Realm of Brass and Shadows who truly understands how
to create an Alchemical Exalt is Autochthon himself.
But the autonomic processes of his Design regularly
examine and select qualified individuals—these days,
always members of the five Sodalities with some form of
Craft rated at ••••+—and bestow this mutation upon
them. It transforms the mind and soul rather than the
body, creating a connection to the slumbering genius
of the Great Maker and allowing the Demiurge to share
Autochthon's nigh-unlimited cognitive bandwidth when
learning how to create Alchemical Exalted. This is how
a human mind comprehends and implements one-fifth
of the Alchemical Exaltation formula, and how a human
body's labors become a direct channel for the power of
the Machine God.
In his wisdom (and anger, and fear), Autochthon
bequeathed the secret of Exaltation to the mortals dwelling
within his world-body… and none other. Not only
are Exalted forbidden from ever obtaining this mutation
by any means, but even God-Blooded are never considered
valid candidates for Demiurge status. Attempts to
interrogate a Demiurge or read his mind are doomed to
failure—the mortal himself only fractionally comprehends
the work of which he is capable, with the vast majority
of his knowledge distributed throughout the crystalline
Core of Autochthon. Likewise, watching a group of
Sodalts at work creating an Alchemical is as fruitless as
observing Lytek polishing and recycling an Exaltation
(a task that was undertaken hundreds of times over the
course of the First Age, to little benefit). The process is
merely a technological ritual permitting the Great Maker's
animating power to flow through the Demiurges and into
the nascent Exalt.

Ultimately, a Twilight who wants to create Alchemicals
will have to force mortals to do so, probably at
sword point. The Great Maker, in the moments when he
was able to bring himself to contemplate such a terrible
eventuality, considered that theoretical Solar's endless
frustration to be just punishment for the betrayal of the
Mountain Folk.
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However, there was that suppliment, where there was a "what if" where the Seal was broken in the First Age. The Story was that the Solars failed to unlock the secrets of an Alchemical Exaltation and tried to make their loved ones into Alchemicals by putting them in danger and following their reincarnations and putting THEM into danger till they qualified for an Alchemical Exaltation.
 
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Yzarc said:
So I went back and looked at the books. Here is what I found.

The PROCESS is known in 5 parts and guarded jealously.
If they UNDERSTAND the process or not is unclear.
The only limit in 2E is Resource and Souls.






So as dumb as it sounds, a Solar would "Technically" be able to do it.

However, there was that suppliment, where there was a "what if" where the Seal was broken in the First Age. The Story was that the Solars failed to unlock the secrets of an Alchemical Exaltation and tried to make their loved ones into Alchemicals by putting them in danger and following their reincarnations and putting THEM into danger till they qualified for an Alchemical Exaltation.
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I mean they basically gave us all the steps of making an exalted and it is explicitly called knowldge that they posses. So its clearly a learnable process.
 
Acolyte said:
I mean they basically gave us all the steps of making an exalted and it is explicitly called knowldge that they posses. So its clearly a learnable process.
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NOt quite. I edited my post for the Demigure mutation. Here is the main part.

"The process is merely a technological ritual permitting the Great Maker's animating power to flow through the Demiurges and into the nascent Exalt."

Can a Twilight build an Alchemical Body? Sure.

Can they build an Alchemical? No, they d not channel Auto-Kun's power so no divine spark that all Exalted need.
 
Acolyte said:
Thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands. There are so so many Computer professionals on twitter bro. Like so many.

You aren't getting my point. It is step by step process that can be done by a persons body. The fact that they don't understand it is fine. But it means it is made up of things people can interact with. If it can be observed and interacted then it can be reolicated.
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It's not a step by step process though the metallic body that they make is nothing without this spark of Auto. Auto essentially takes over to channel the essence necessary to awaken an alchemical any Mage or exalted can make robots there's no doubt about that it's Auto's Essence that allows the making of the chosen that he has. In complete Defiance to his themes and nature it is purely magic that allows the alchemicals to exist fuck I hate the demiurge Mutation.
 
Yzarc said:
NOt quite. I edited my post for the Demigure mutation. Here is the main part.

"The process is merely a technological ritual permitting the Great Maker's animating power to flow through the Demiurges and into the nascent Exalt."

Can a Twilight build an Alchemical Body? Sure.

Can they build an Alchemical? No, they d not channel Auto-Kun's power so no divine spark that all Exalted need.
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Come on guys, that pretty clearly states that it is mental bandwidth issue of them understanding the knowldge. Mages can use mind to enhance their mental processes if need be. But ultimately it is knowldge its just human brains are too small to understand it, mages don't have that issue or can at least solve it.

Also we have exigents now, so obtaining a divine spark is fairly trivial in universe and i can see mages just making a spirit with spirit 5 to get a divine spark if that is the issue.

I am not saying its an easy goal but i clearly see the path a mage would have to take to make an exaltation, it might be the focus of an entire campaign.
Degorium said:
It's not a step by step process though the metallic body that they make is nothing without this spark of Auto. Auto essentially takes over to channel the essence necessary to awaken an alchemical any Mage or exalted can make robots there's no doubt about that it's Auto's Essence that allows the making of the chosen that he has. In complete Defiance to his themes and nature it is purely magic that allows the alchemicals to exist fuck I hate the demiurge Mutation.
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Eh, exigent proves that any god can give their spark if the rest of the parts are there. I don't see that being a particular big deal.

Charms are the main power of exalted anyway and those are replicable.
fictionfan said:
There is an Exalted thread full of masters of Exalted lore.
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Edit Thats fair and this has gotten off topic. I will stop now. Sorry i didn't see this message before posting. Not trying to have the last word or anything.
 
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Acolyte said:
Come on guys, that pretty clearly states that it is mental bandwidth issue of them understanding the knowldge. Mages can use mind to enhance their mental processes if need be. But ultimately it is knowldge its just human brains are too small to understand it, mages don't have that issue or can at least solve it.

Also we have exigents now, so obtaining a divine spark is fairly trivial in universe and i can see mages just making a spirit with spirit 5 to get a divine spark if that is the issue.

I am not saying its an easy goal but i clearly see the path a mage would have to take to make an exaltation, it might be the focus of an entire campaign.

Eh, exigent proves that any god can give their spark if the rest of the parts are there. I don't see that being a particular big deal.

Charms are the main power of exalted anyway and those are replicable.
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I both love and hate The Fire Exigent but it's really not anywhere near as simple as you're saying. It's not really so much any God can give their spark as Sol can clad an exaltation in his Divine fire and you can sacrifice a not insignificant portion of your Immortal being into it to make a singular or if you're a really powerful God group of chosen. The fire exigent belongs to Sol and he dols it out as he feels necessary. To be frank it stands to reason only the perfected God of excellence and the great Craftsman know the true secrets of exaltation.
 
Acolyte said:
Come on guys, that pretty clearly states that it is mental bandwidth issue of them understanding the knowldge. Mages can use mind to enhance their mental processes if need be. But ultimately it is knowldge its just human brains are too small to understand it, mages don't have that issue or can at least solve it.

Also we have exigents now, so obtaining a divine spark is fairly trivial in universe and i can see mages just making a spirit with spirit 5 to get a divine spark if that is the issue.

I am not saying its an easy goal but i clearly see the path a mage would have to take to make an exaltation, it might be the focus of an entire campaign.
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If you want to go 3E, it requires a permanent and willing sacrifice of a God or divine like being or a not so insignificant part of their power.

If you have that, then you do not need to craft an Exaltation, you already have it. The Flame of Extigence is just window dressing or plot at that point.

With Regards to Alchemicals, both 2E and 3E Explicitly state that Auto-Kun powers them with a divine spark.

The Knowledge bit is on HOW to build the BODY and how to fix the SOUL. It is NOT how exalt someone as an Alchemical but rather how to build the body of one.
 
Acolyte said:
Come on guys, that pretty clearly states that it is mental bandwidth issue of them understanding the knowldge. Mages can use mind to enhance their mental processes if need be. But ultimately it is knowldge its just human brains are too small to understand it, mages don't have that issue or can at least solve it.
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No, it's a ritual that channels the power of Autochton. Who ultimately makes the exalted. No autochton = no exaltation. Maybe Molly could make her own alchemical equivalents after fully ascending to primordialhood, but mortals can't.
 
Exigent are terrible from both a lore and mechanics perspective. Why would anybody ever make an Exigent when they can just bless a mortal with their powers directly something all gods in exalted can do without causing death/permanent lose of power. You could even spam blessing if you really need to. Godblooded just make so much more since then the stupidly of Exigents.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Exigent are terrible from both a lore and mechanics perspective. Why would anybody ever make an Exigent when they can just bless a mortal with their powers directly something all gods in exalted can do without causing death/permanent lose of power. You could even spam blessing if you really need to. Godblooded just make so much more since then the stupidly of Exigents.
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What blessing as a field God could you possibly Grant that would protect your village from Fair Folk. What is the God blooded going to grow wheat at them. If you were God of a river and a massive Metody is poisoning your River who you going to bless to actually help you. What they're going to help you purify the water even faster despite the fact they're using your power. The blessings of the gods are many and Powerful but they are purely situational and sometimes you just need a weapon of the Gods.
 
Degorium said:
What blessing as a field God could you possibly Grant that would protect your village from Fair Folk. What is the God blooded going to grow wheat at them. If you were God of a river and a massive Metody is poisoning your River who you going to bless to actually help you. What they're going to help you purify the water even faster despite the fact they're using your power. The blessings of the gods are many and Powerful but they are purely situational and sometimes you just need a weapon of the Gods.
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God of field here as charm that grows plant to choke your enemies to death, god of a river here is a charm that cause flash floods strong enough to wash away bridges. Nevermind that dealing with that stuff is the Gods job. Gods are limited by their mote pool not their theme. If a god blesses say 5 mortals then the god can bring 5x times the power down on something causing problems, just from having more people to spend essence dealing with it.
 
Yog said:
No, it's a ritual that channels the power of Autochton. Who ultimately makes the exalted. No autochton = no exaltation. Maybe Molly could make her own alchemical equivalents after fully ascending to primordialhood, but mortals can't.
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Ita literally off topic now so i csn respond but i would be happy to take this to a pm.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
God of field here as charm that grows plant to choke your enemies to death, god of a river here is a charm that cause flash floods strong enough to wash away bridges. Nevermind that dealing with that stuff is the Gods job. Gods are limited by their mote pool not their theme. If a god blesses say 5 mortals then the god can bring 5x times the power down on something causing problems, just from having more people to spend essence dealing with it.
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Neither of those charms that you mention help them in any way deal with the issues that I specifically posed. None of those Mortals would have Spirit killers or be as effective against fighting the raksha. They would be drowned in conjured servants immediately then the village would ultimately fall anyway because the God doesn't have Spirit Killers either so it can't actually kill the Noble in charge of the behemoths running into his town. Never mind the fact that there's a good chance that a powerful raksha just shape those blessed people into rocks and continue on past them. The Metody in that example are giant acid Elementals from Malfeas adding more water to them does nothing they need to be killed and if you're not a chosen I'm unsure of how you would do that. Five Mortals is not enough to deal with either of those threats hell any mortal except maybe a couple thousand that was not enough to deal with either of those threats.
 
I want to respond to the Extigence argument but it is really off topic so let's wait for the update?
 
So if a Jade Vampire serves us does their enhanced control mean that even a brand new one can just absorb ambient ki from the air when a new one would usually have to eat flesh?
 
Degorium said:
Neither of those charms that you mention help them in any way deal with the issues that I specifically posed. None of those Mortals would have Spirit killers or be as effective against fighting the raksha. They would be drowned in conjured servants immediately then the village would ultimately fall anyway because the God doesn't have Spirit Killers either so it can't actually kill the Noble in charge of the behemoths running into his town. Never mind the fact that there's a good chance that a powerful raksha just shape those blessed people into rocks and continue on past them. The Metody in that example are giant acid Elementals from Malfeas adding more water to them does nothing they need to be killed and if you're not a chosen I'm unsure of how you would do that. Five Mortals is not enough to deal with either of those threats hell any mortal except maybe a couple thousand that was not enough to deal with either of those threats.
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Fair folk all die permanently when killed by any creation born, that an feature of all of creation from the weakest ant to the biggest monster. You do not need a spirit killer just damage to kill fair folk. You can be in the deepest part of the Wyld and if a mortal somehow kills an unshaped they stay dead. The primordial made killing Raksha something anything, and everything they created could do, they really hated Raksha.

As for the Metody and elemental of any type in general, and first circle demons if you kill them they are dead, it harder for first circle demons since they can go immaterial, but still doable. Especially by mortals with awakened essence, and a combat charm or two.

Only the likes of second circle and third circle demons, and gods require Spirit killers to put down permanently.
 
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Paradox isn't a thing in DF, but are acts of Hubris a thing represented in any way? Because this whole off topic discussion started with if powerful DF mages could destroy an Exaltation as described in the Doc. Thing is even in the Doc for mage the awakening that is explicitly an act of Hubris.

Also just realized that there are certainly a few Exaltations trapped in Demonreach. Where else do you put something dangerous that you can't destroy?
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
Fair folk all die permanently when killed by any creation born, that an feature of all of creation from the weakest ant to the biggest monster. You do not need a spirit killer just damage to kill fair folk. You can be in the deepest part of the Wyld and if a mortal somehow kills an unshaped they stay dead. The primordial made killing Raksha something anything, and everything they created could do, they really hated Raksha.

As for the Metody and elemental of any type in general, and first circle demons if you kill them they are dead, it harder for first circle demons since they can go immaterial, but still doable. Especially by mortals with awakened essence, and a combat charm or two.

Only the likes of second circle and third circle demons, and gods require Spirit killers to put down permanently.
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The first is true about raksha they can be killed by any creation born that is true that doesn't stop them for being able to make thousands of hobgoblins and just running over everyone and if you don't have shaping protection you immediately fall just like the Crusade any powerful Noble can do that if you don't have the ability to ignore them shaping the environment or you they win immediately and only the exalted and Powerful gods have that ability if you're a field God you certainly don't and neither do those you bless.

Demons from Malfeas that's just wrong you need the spirit killer to actually kill of them. You can banish them by filling their health levels and they end up back in Malfeas. In the end there's just no blessing that you can give that would allow any mortal to fight anything that was worth getting an exalted for if you didn't need one you wouldn't get one. The weapons of the gods were made to fight the greatest War if you didn't need a weapon of the Gods you would just make god-blooded or bless regular Mortals. But the gap between those two extremes is a vast indeed.
 
fictionfan said:
Paradox isn't a thing in DF, but are acts of Hubris a thing represented in any way? Because this whole off topic discussion started with if powerful DF mages could destroy an Exaltation as described in the Doc. Thing is even in the Doc for mage the awakening that is explicitly an act of Hubris.

Also just realized that there are certainly a few Exaltations trapped in Demonreach. Where else do you put something dangerous that you can't destroy?
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There's almost certainly no exaltation trapped in Demonreach. For one simple reason all of them seem to have been contained or are migrating Across the Universe well before the existence of Demonreach ours were at the foundations of yomi wan, the solar Shard was captured in ancient Egypt the Abyssal also even though it was in the ocean, the moon shard was trapped in a meteor that landed on earth a couple hundred years ago maybe.
 
Degorium said:
There's almost certainly no exaltation trapped in Demonreach. For one simple reason all of them seem to have been contained or are migrating Across the Universe well before the existence of Demonreach ours were at the foundations of yomi wan, the solar Shard was captured in ancient Egypt the Abyssal also even though it was in the ocean, the moon shard was trapped in a meteor that landed on earth a couple hundred years ago maybe.
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Wasn't Demonreach's creation a wibbly wobbly timely whammy thing?
 
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