Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Mithrill]

I might be misremembering, but there are provisions in the Accords regarding dealing with Outsiders, aren't there? In that case, we can legally spin the purge as an investigation into the organization that has proven to be capable and willing to aid and/or abet Enemies of All Creation.
If a rouge agent of a state cooks up a nuke, it's only natural that the state will be pressured to make sure such an event doesn't happen again, after all.

 

[OctarineShrike]

I might be misremembering, but there are provisions in the Accords regarding dealing with Outsiders, aren't there? In that case, we can legally spin the purge as an investigation into the organization that has proven to be capable and willing to aid and/or abet Enemies of All Creation.
If a rouge agent of a state cooks up a nuke, it's only natural that the state will be pressured to make sure such an event doesn't happen again, after all.

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We've read it in character and there's no mention of it. So unless there's some bit in the novels I may not be aware of probably not.

Referenced update:

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files) Crossover - Fantasy

Between the Lines 25th of October 2006 A.D. Even before you get the chance to ask Bob about Queen Mab the list of reasons to dislike her grows a little longer. Who insists on writing things on parchment these days? Does she have a grudge against cows as well as your free time, trying to...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

 

[BronzeTongue]

I might be misremembering, but there are provisions in the Accords regarding dealing with Outsiders, aren't there? In that case, we can legally spin the purge as an investigation into the organization that has proven to be capable and willing to aid and/or abet Enemies of All Creation.
If a rouge agent of a state cooks up a nuke, it's only natural that the state will be pressured to make sure such an event doesn't happen again, after all.

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Not exactly. There's some very specific mutual defense clauses, but they're not really relevant unless invoked by a signatory against a threat to the entire community.

It's entirely legal for one signatory to declare "I'm going to kill every member of [insert other signatory here], harvest their souls, then power my infrastructure on torturing them for millennia" and then go about doing so. The Accords are rules for diplomacy and enforcing agreements between parties, not a supranational body of general law.

Which is why the Accords angle is silly. If the reds go whining to someone the first question is going to be "but did she promise not to kick your ass though?" Because if we didn't have that notarized with another signatory then they have no standing.

 

[uju32]

We don't need their approval to do this Winter is staying out of Vegas even. I don't remember us joining the Accords either. I highly doubt people are going to care enough after what almost happened here along with our reputation to seriously fight the Godkiller on it.

If they do then they were likely organization(s) we were going to have to deal with later on anyway.

To be clear what I'm suggesting is that anytime they gain a foothold near the Gate we deal with them until they stop bothering due to the war they are already fighting. Pouring assets down the drain is not in their best interest.

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We do this in this manner, its going to end up at the diplomatic table sooner or later.
And the legal precedents there are not in our favor.
We let the Sin-Eater do it, the legal precedents are in his favor.

I expect there to be pushback. I don't expect it to be anything that we weren't already going to have to deal with from the Reds later on.

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Disagree. Strongly.

The difference is that the fey cleaned their own messes one way or the other and the reds let it go to shit. Getting kicked out of the sensitive area you almost destroyed is barely even a punishment. The dragon was effectively running his own operation out here so they aren't even out much in the way of material resources.

As to mediation? I doubt it because they don't stipulate you have to be nice when you win unless some other agreement is in play.

The Accords are more likely to formally acknowledge our right to legal ownership of any souls of everyone we defeated over the claims of the actual people they comprise than that slap us for winning.

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1)Aurora plot was cleared up by a White Council wizard.
In this story, Maeve, the various Winter and Summer Fae were all brought to their attention by Molly.
And Lady Ellawyn is still in the wind.



2)The Dragon was working for the Sin-Eater. Vegas belongs to the Sin-Eater, not the Red Court.
There's an actual argument to be made that its the demon that would be on the hook for his actions, not the Red Court, one they would be happy to make


3)We werent at war with the Red Court.
We still arent. We came to Vegas after Outsiders and Outsider cultists, not the Red Court. We are in Vegas, which is ruled by a third party, and thus do not have the legal authority to demand they leave for shit they as a corporate body did not do.

And neither the legal or practical power to make them leave without doing shit like bringing in mortals.

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It's hard to build long-term policy when Molly keeps killing the long-lived major power players who irritate her. Asides from the policy to not irritate Molly.

As Battleground showed, legal precedents mean jack shit when the other side can just cave your skull in. As Molly can, and which nobody wants to risk. Odin/Mab/Merlin didn't live this long by playing stupid games.

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As Battle Grounds showed, trying to pull that shit gets everyone with an interest in the status quo to beat you down and stick you in a hole.Ethniu was great, Ethniu was impressive. Ethniu was terrifying.
Ethniu is in a jail cell.

I will also refer you to how Infernal shards ended up in Yomi Wan in the first place in canon ExWoD.

Exactly!

Which is why we ought to kill the Red Court, since they're the only ones stupid enough to get into a fight with Molly. Everybody else is smartly staying far away and not willing to get involved, or want to lend a hand so once Molly finishes dealing with the next set of immortals, she'll be well-inclined to them.

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And we will kill the Red Court when we can do it expeditiously, and have a plan for handling the aftermath.
We do not have the power to do so now.
And doing them small injuries gives them time to escalate, seek diplomatic avenues, and bring in outside help.

Its not like Emma-O will not happily stick his oar in. Nevermind Mikaboshi.
We arnt the only people who know how to fight proxy wars.

I might be misremembering, but there are provisions in the Accords regarding dealing with Outsiders, aren't there? In that case, we can legally spin the purge as an investigation into the organization that has proven to be capable and willing to aid and/or abet Enemies of All Creation.
If a rouge agent of a state cooks up a nuke, it's only natural that the state will be pressured to make sure such an event doesn't happen again, after all.

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Nope.
If this was ever a thing, both Courts would have been on the hook for almost destroying the Midwest in Cold Days, when both Nfested Maeve and Lily attacked Demonreach.

 

[BoredMan]

We do this in this manner, its going to end up at the diplomatic table sooner or later.
And the legal precedents there are not in our favor.
We let the Sin-Eater do it, the legal precedents are in his favor.

Disagree. Strongly.

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Killing the Reds in Vegas is fine. They bring it up at a meeting then they'll also have to acknowledge the major screw up with the Gate. Like I said given that, anyone who sides with them is someone we'd likely have to fight down the line regardless. I don't see why you think the other factions will care enough to help them. The Red Court is at war they should already be reaching out for every asset they can get a hold of.

Lol okay. What will the Red Court be willing and able afford right now, during a war, to do business in a single city, that they won't be doing to us later when we start burning AP to take them out of the equation?

 

[BronzeTongue]

1)Aurora plot was cleared up by a White Council wizard.
In this story, Maeve, the various Winter and Summer Fae were all brought to their attention by Molly.
And Lady Ellawyn is still in the wind.



2)The Dragon was working for the Sin-Eater. Vegas belongs to the Sin-Eater, not the Red Court.
There's an actual argument to be made that its the demon that would be on the hook for his actions, not the Red Court, one they would be happy to make


3)We werent at war with the Red Court.
We still arent. We came to Vegas after Outsiders and Outsider cultists, not the Red Court. We are in Vegas, which is ruled by a third party, and thus do not have the legal authority to demand they leave for shit they as a corporate body did not do.

And neither the legal or practical power to make them leave without doing shit like bringing in mortals.

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1) Dresden was involved because he was doing work for Mab, he wasn't wearing his formal wizard hat at the time.

In any case actively making successful efforts to manage the situation before it got out of control once they knew is good enough here. If a fey did something like this everyone involved would be killed by their own leadership, the reds are suspect and have lost any benefit of the doubt.

2) Okay, sure. Why the hell are you arguing about the red court getting up in arms then? I made the point about this basically being a null change materially to the court because the dragon had been AWOL since the early 1900's a few posts ago and you seemed to ignore it.

The devil made me do it as an argument just admits you did it and don't have a claim to the territory you're being kicked from as far the community is concerned.


3) The only real laws at this level are about agreements, which are enforced where and how it's beneficial and convenient to the members of the community with the power to do so.

We've made no agreements that contradict this course of action, and the other powers are interested in the situation ceasing to be a problem for them with a minimum of effort on their part. They're not going to stick an oar in for the red court of all people.

If the reds are going to act they will do so in any case other than one where we help them establish control they never really had in the first place. Which is just doing the same things we're talking about now for people we hate.

As to if we're at war or not? Their wet works woman purposely tried to catch us in the splash damage sending a Naagoloshi to a major city to kill a close associate. Who we hunted down and killed in the court's home territory. They're attacking groups we like, and we've been giving their enemies free ray guns to shoot them with.

Are you sure they know we're not at war?

 

[uju32]

Killing the Reds in Vegas is fine. They bring it up at a meeting then they'll also have to acknowledge the major screw up with the Gate. Like I said given that, anyone who sides with them is someone we'd likely have to fight down the line regardless. I don't see why you think the other factions will care enough to help them. The Red Court is at war they should already be reaching out for every asset they can get a hold of.

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1)The Reds in Vegas that are left are, WoG, not at all involved in the plot.


2)The Red Court can make a credible case for not being responsible for Las Vegas.
Its not their city, it belongs to the Sin-Eater, for whom the Dragon was working as seneschal/Emissary. Just like Dresden has worked as emissary for Mab/Winter several times.

Just like the White Council are not responsible for Harry's actions when he's working for Mab?
They can argue they arent responsible for the Dragon when he's working for the Sin-Eater.

I don't see why you think the other factions will care enough to help them. The Red Court is at war they should already be reaching out for every asset they can get a hold of.

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They arent helping the Red Court, they are acting in their own interests.
They dont want to set precedents that can be wielded against them in the future.

Like I have pointed out, both Fae superpowers have had major figures subverted and working for the Enemy.
Using Court resources.
This precedent would allow them to be liable for it.

Hell, this precedent would allow Nemesis to grab someone, do shit, then deliberately have them caught by someone else(a dupe, a pawn) so that person can claim penalties against the Courts.

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Lol okay. What will the Red Court be willing and able afford right now, during a war, to do business in a single city, that they won't be doing to us later when we start burning AP to take them out of the equation?

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I dont know?
Arianna was flying a private jet in the daytime, so they surely didnt feel particularly pressured.
When they feel pressured, options open up.

More Fomor deals
Bigger Outsiders instead of the lesser ones.
Those Thrashing Dragon Wan Kuei they have been courting according to Brother Devisimar
Even outreach to the Yama Kings

Those are things that they havent actually seriously considered yet.

 

[Mithrill]

2)The Dragon was working for the Sin-Eater. Vegas belongs to the Sin-Eater, not the Red Court.

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As far as I'm aware, Sin-Eater is more of a Guardian of Vegas than Ruler, otherwise he would have never bothered with a Dragon. I'll look over relevant posts tomorrow morning (midnight in my time zone), but the issue that we need to find someone to help S-E hold the Gate closed is not related to whether or not Reds should get the boot. They are the guilty party (along Sandra, but her legal status is not exactly disputed), consequences should be leveled.
Also, since you brought it up, any preference who we want to be Sin-Eater's seneshal.

Like I have pointed out, both Fae superpowers have had major figures subverted and working for the Enemy.
Using Court resources.
This precedent would allow them to be liable for it.

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The precedent set up is that if you act in the interest of Outsiders or knowingly allow your subordinates to do so, you will be investigated and, if proven guilty, punished. This feels like a useful precedent to set up.
If the Reds tried to leverage it against the Courts, they have a simple defence: the subversion occured without superior's knowledge and said superior took steps to clean it up as soon as it was confirmed. The Reds at minimum turned a blind eye to what they knew was Outside influence, or at least that's my read.

 

[Alratan]

Would she? Molly did not know what White Court vampires were when she first met Thomas.
Her Occult was out of date and we were updating it with Bob.
We still have a bunch of prisoners being investigated in Sanctuary.

And while Tiffany should know based on her memories, if she thought that mind-controlled Rampires were a potential issue when we planned to take them as backup into the tunnels, she would have mentioned it.

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But we didn't take them into the tunnels, so Tiffany had no reason to mention it. And there's no hint anywhere that the red vampires are immune to mind control.

Vampires, all varieties, invariably live in human-populated areas. Both for security, and because thats where the prey is.

Paolo Ortega was just having a retreat in his Honduran estate.
His fulltime residence?
Was in Rio de Janeiro, population 6.7 million, because he was a professor there.

His wife, who we killed?
Lived and worked in the middle of the city of Leon, population 1.7 million. Thats why we went to the trouble of intercepting her plane where the civilians were limited.

No offense?
But this delusion that you can sling high yield vehicle-carried military ordinance around in populated areas without civilian casualties needs to stop.

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We're dealing with the threat of the end of everything. If a few of their mind controlled and so likely irrecoverable slaves are unfortunately killed when their mansions are destroyed, that's a tragedy, but a much smaller tragedy than they inflict on others on a regular basis.

We're talking about developing world upper classes who will be living in large walled compounds in exclusive, very low density areas.

Your argument is that she would put her spite contingencies, if any, in the very first people we, or anyone else, would look at.
Instead of inconspicuous mortals who have no connection to the supernatural.
That makes no goddamn sense.


There is literally no evidence, or suggestion, that you can mindwipe yourself in the Dresden Files.
I dont think its even possible in vanilla Mage; someone else has to set that up.


Thats not how it works.
If we followed your argument to its logical conclusion, we would have to quarantine the entire city of Vegas, because she has been here for 7 months and could have put triggers in anyone's head during that time.

Certainly the entire 25,000 plus student population of the University of Nevada Las Vegas, where she explicitly went to class.

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I don't think there's any evidence that you can detect implanted triggers. However, we know that erasing memories is possible. Both Dresden and Susan had memories of theirs erased. If it can be done to someone else, it can be done to yourself, as that's generally easier.

Those students are a threat, and the Library of Congress should probably black ball them from ever getting a sensitive role in anything they can influence.

However, they're a lot less individually dangerous and potentially influential than the established Red Court.

 

[uju32]

1) Dresden was involved because he was doing work for Mab, he wasn't wearing his formal wizard hat at the time.

In any case actively making successful efforts to manage the situation before it got out of control once they knew is good enough here. If a fey did something like this everyone involved would be killed by their own leadership, the reds are suspect and have lost any benefit of the doubt.

2) Okay, sure. Why the hell are you arguing about the red court getting up in arms then? I made the point about this basically being a null change materially to the court because the dragon had been AWOL since the early 1900's a few posts ago and you seemed to ignore it.

The devil made me do it as an argument just admits you did it and don't have a claim to the territory you're being kicked from as far the community is concerned.


3) The only real laws at this level are about agreements, which are enforced where and how it's beneficial and convenient to the members of the community with the power to do so.

We've made no agreements that contradict this course of action, and the other powers are interested in the situation ceasing to be a problem for them with a minimum of effort on their part. They're not going to stick an oar in for the red court of all people.

If the reds are going to act they will do so in any case other than one where we help them establish control they never really had in the first place. Which is just doing the same things we're talking about now for people we hate.

As to if we're at war or not? Their wet works woman purposely tried to catch us in the splash damage sending a Naagoloshi to a major city to kill a close associate. Who we hunted down and killed in the court's home territory. They're attacking groups we like, and we've been giving their enemies free ray guns to shoot them with.

Are you sure they know we're not at war?

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1) If you assert that Dresden working for Mab is a Winter matter despite his being a White Council wizard?
Then the Dragon as Sin-Eater Emissary is not a Red Court matter, because he was not acting for the Red Court.
At least, thats what they'll argue.

Certainly, if we judged that good faith efforts to intervene were enough, Jeremy Bouchard's information when told and assembly of a 16-person assault group would have been enough to absolve the Red Court of any responsibility.
You obviously dont think so.


2)While the Red Court do not give the Dragon orders?
They did invest in this city on his invitation. The RPG says Red Court money did much of the heavy lifting of building this place.

Plus, there's the simple matter of face.Its not like Cleveland, where they had no previous presence.
Getting kicked out of a city they've been in for a century by girl who doesnt even have a right to the city is a very different matter, especially in such a high profile place.



3) None of the other factions would be helping the Red Court, or acting out of the goodness of their hearts; they are avoiding precedents that can be used against them. Those people who file amicus briefs on behalf of criminals and corporations(but I repeat myself ) often are not fans of either.

But precedents dont care.



4) They certainly dont appear to think so, judging by the Red Court contingent in this city. We didnt behave like it either, when we invited ourselves to the apartment of a member of their nobility.
We are hostile to each other. We'll undermine each other if we can.

But we are not at war. Sanctuary is not at war with the Red Court. Certainly not openly.

 

[fictionfan]

Arianna was flying a private jet in the daytime,

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No she was flying at night that was an important tactical consideration. Or we would have blown the top off or opened the windows.

@uju32 : I think that you overestimate how legalist and precedent focused the supernatural world is in general. There is no court. The only agreement explicitly has no spirit and everyone currently has reasons to hate the red court. The Red Court currently only has a bit more standing then the Black Court and that is purely based on power rather than reputation.

 

[BoredMan]

1)The Reds in Vegas that are left are, WoG, not at all involved in the plot.


2)The Red Court can make a credible case for not being responsible for Las Vegas.
Its not their city, it belongs to the Sin-Eater, for whom the Dragon was working as seneschal/Emissary. Just like Dresden has worked as emissary for Mab/Winter several times.

Just like the White Council are not responsible for Harry's actions when he's working for Mab?
They can argue they arent responsible for the Dragon when he's working for the Sin-Eater.

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1) Don't see why that matters. Every Red who was in the tunnels defending the Dragon while this was going is associated with him. They don't know what we do about allegiances gained through the Crown question.

2) I don't believe the Sin-Eater owns the city it can't even act on its own. I believe that it holds the Gate and if it acts out according to the Sin-Eater itself it'll get "put away". I doubt it really has that kind of leverage whoever has it's Mantle holds the city if anything.

Like I have pointed out, both Fae superpowers have had major figures subverted and working for the Enemy.
Using Court resources.
This precedent would allow them to be liable for it.

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Just because we act a certain way towards the Reds doesn't mean it's suddenly every other factions personal problem. Winter and Summer actively fight the Outsiders them sometimes getting screwed over by them and having to deal with Outsiders nonsense is expected. They can't be held liable for anything because they are contributing more to protecting reality than the vast majority of factions and screwing them over screws everyone else by proxy.

More Fomor deals
Bigger Outsiders instead of the lesser ones.
Those Thrashing Dragon Wan Kuei they have been courting according to Brother Devisimar
Even outreach to the Yama Kings

Those are things that they havent actually seriously considered yet.

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So basically things they should already or will be doing later because of the White Council war. Things we'll have to deal with in quest no matter what because we do plan to go to war with them and they may already believe we are doing so anyway.

You seemingly just pulled that out of your ass. You have no idea what they have seriously considered.

 

[uju32]

As far as I'm aware, Sin-Eater is more of a Guardian of Vegas than Ruler, otherwise he would have never bothered with a Dragon. I'll look over relevant posts tomorrow morning (midnight in my time zone), but the issue that we need to find someone to help S-E hold the Gate closed is not related to whether or not Reds should get the boot. They are the guilty party (along Sandra, but her legal status is not exactly disputed), consequences should be leveled.
Also, since you brought it up, any preference who we want to be Sin-Eater's seneshal.

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1) The Sin-Eater doesnt guard Las Vegas, he guards the seal/hellgate.
Las Vegas is his vegetable garden, which grows his food.
The Dragon is his gardener. Was his gardener.


2)They are not the guilty party.
Not even the people making the argument are seriously suggesting that the Red Court wanted to blow up North America.
Its just an excuse to attack Red Court resources.

Now, Im sympathetic to the goal, but not the methods.


3)At the moment? No.
We dont know what the conditions are like, or what the contract says. The Dragon claimed it was slavery, and while he is not a credible source, I would want a lot more information before presenting someone to it.

Worst comes to worst, we might ask the Library for a volunteer.

---

The precedent set up is that if you act in the interest of Outsiders or knowingly allow your subordinates to do so, you will be investigated and, if proven guilty, punished. This feels like a useful precedent to set up.

If the Reds tried to leverage it against the Courts, they have a simple defence: the subversion occured without superior's knowledge and said superior took steps to clean it up as soon as it was confirmed. The Reds at minimum turned a blind eye to what they knew was Outside influence, or at least that's my read.

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The precedent in question is the one where randos get to make broad sweeping penalties against nationstates that are only tangentially involved here.

Remember, the Dragon was here as Emissary of the Sin-Eater, not as a Red Court noble.
Trying to penalize the Red Court for this is dodgy at best.


Let me paint you a scenario that this precedent enables:
Nemesis grabs a couple changelings sworn to Winter, and then uses them/induces them to summon a bunch of Outsiders to create damage/kill a bunch of people, or try to release some other Sealed Evil In A Can.

Then it arranges for the Fomor, ancestral enemies of Winter, to apprehend the perpetrators. They dont know that Nemesis is behind it, but they hate the Fae, and Winter in particular, and will always try to fuck them up.
And now the Fomor demand that Winter give up a magically significant site as "punishment"

Or they do it to the White Council, and demand control of Edinburgh, since the Council obviously cant be trusted with control of such an important nexus of leylines.

And thats just the first thing that comes to mind.
If I slept on it, Im pretty sure I could come up with a half dozen worse exploits.



Again, I will remind you that when we told a senior Red Court noble, he provided information and 16 troops to support our attack.Despite this not being officially their city.
By contrast, the senior White Court and Wyldfae reps left town.

 

[Alratan]

What is this 'right to the city'? There are no rights here. There's just power.

There's no mechanism I'm aware of for a supernatural faction to officially claim a city. If a faction wants to assert exclusive rights to it, they need to be strong enough to keep the offers out. Otherwise they do as they please.

Just look at what the various groups got up to in Chicago.

Here, we can use something like the temple of Ra as local proxies to take over Las Vegas. With backup from the FFC they should be able to hold it.

 

[uju32]

No she was flying at night that was an important tactical consideration. Or we would have blown the top off or opened the windows.

@uju32 : I think that you overestimate how legalist and precedent focused the supernatural world is in general. There is no court. The only agreement explicitly has no spirit and everyone currently has reasons to hate the red court. The Red Court currently only has a bit more standing then the Black Court and that is purely based on power rather than reputation.

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1)Yeah youre right about that detail.
I think she flew the private jet to Mexico City earlier that day and was returning to Leon that night.
But my broader point is still that she was moving openly without fear, with her movement tracked on Flight Tracker.

They didnt feel pressured then.
They lost troops and a couple nobles, but while they arent Blacks, grunts are much easier to replace than wizards are.
I dont know if its still true now, after losing a Lord and a Duchess in quick succession, but it was true then.


2)I dont think I am.

Duke Paolo Ortega flew down to Chicago to negotiate a duel with Dresden, Murphy dissuaded Big Brother Gruff by both bravery and knowledge of etiquette, I remember exactly how much trouble Mab went to about Nicodemus in Skin Game , and the entirety of the short story The Law showed how much legalism and etiquette there can be in formal supernatural affairs.

When supernatural etiquette breaks down, there's usually alarming levels of violence.


3) No. The Red Court is NOT the Black Court. Dont let dislike of their existence cloud your eyes to their actual standing in supernatural affairs. In this very quest they are described as having the standing to court Thrashing Dragon Wan Kuei of the Jade Court.

 

[uju32]

What is this 'right to the city'? There are no rights here. There's just power.

There's no mechanism I'm aware of for a supernatural faction to officially claim a city. If a faction wants to assert exclusive rights to it, they need to be strong enough to keep the offers out. Otherwise they do as they please.

Just look at what the various groups got up to in Chicago.

Here, we can use something like the temple of Ra as local proxies to take over Las Vegas.

Click to shrink...

This is not true.
Dresden has an explicit Accorded treaty keeping the Red Court out of Chicago.
Thats why we did not see any of them in the city after Death Rites until the events of Changes.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I am interested in making up a City god of to take over the place.

This is not true.
Dresden has an explicit Accorded treaty keeping the Red Court out of Chicago.
Thats why we did not see any of them in the city after Death Rites until the events of Changes.

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That a treaty between two factions, and we see quite clearly that the Red Court cares nothing for keeping their word.

 

[Alratan]

This is not true.
Dresden has an explicit Accorded treaty keeping the Red Court out of Chicago.
Thats why we did not see any of them in the city after Death Rites until the events of Changes.

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That was a specific treaty banning one specific faction from a specific place as punishment for losing a duel. It doesn't indicate that a faction can make a general claim in the way you're suggesting the Red Court has on Las Vegas. Dresden, the White Council has no such claim on Chicago, nor does Marcone, nor anyone else. We see no examples of such exclusive rights.

We are not banned from Las Vegas as a consequence of our prior agreements. We can do anything we want here that we're strong enough to enforce.

The presence of the Temple of Ra Descending and the others is conclusive ev since that Las Vegas is not owned by the Red Court. It's divided and contested between multiple factions in proportion to their strength.

 

[TheWoo]

3)At the moment? No.
We dont know what the conditions are like, or what the contract says. The Dragon claimed it was slavery, and while he is not a credible source, I would want a lot more information before presenting someone to it.

Worst comes to worst, we might ask the Library for a volunteer.

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Wouldn't making a god as the new Dragon be better? if I'm not misunderstanding something, they could be made specifically to better fit the role. I agree we should have more information before making a decision through.

I am interested in making up a City god of to take over the place.

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This could have been an option if the sin eater was the traitor or dead, I suppose.

 

[fictionfan]

Duke Paolo Ortega flew down to Chicago to negotiate a duel with Dresden, Murphy dissuaded Big Brother Gruff by both bravery and knowledge of etiquette, I remember exactly how much trouble Mab went to about Nicodemus in Skin Game , and the entirety of the short story The Law showed how much legalism and etiquette there can be in formal supernatural affairs.

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In every case just quoted it was a matter of letter of law and we are not breaking any letter of law in any way.

So in summary there are two types of fractions whose opinion we might want to count
1.Humanistic like white council or the library.
2. Legalist like the the fey.

Neither groups cares if we bump off a bunch of Red Court here after their local leader was tracking with outsiders. It would be different if we were breaking some agreement, but we very much are not.

 

[BoredMan]

Nemesis grabs a couple changelings sworn to Winter, and then uses them/induces them to summon a bunch of Outsiders to create damage/kill a bunch of people, or try to release some other Sealed Evil In A Can.

Then it arranges for the Fomor, ancestral enemies of Winter, to apprehend the perpetrators. They dont know that Nemesis is behind it, but they hate the Fae, and Winter in particular, and will always try to fuck them up.
And now the Fomor demand that Winter give up a magically significant site as "punishment"

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That really isn't comparable. The Dragon was of the Red Court and he and his Reds were the ones trusted with guarding the Gate. Winter stayed away because of this. These situations are quite different.

 

[uju32]

1) Don't see why that matters. Every Red who was in the tunnels defending the Dragon while this was going is associated with him. They don't know what we do about allegiances gained through the Crown question.

2) I don't believe the Sin-Eater owns the city it can't even act on its own. I believe that it holds the Gate and if it acts out according to the Sin-Eater itself it'll get "put away". I doubt it really has that kind of leverage whoever has it's Mantle holds the city if anything.

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1)Every Red in the tunnels is dead.
We cannot ask except with the Crown, and have no way of proving it to others other than "Trust be brah"


2)Yes it does.
The city was created at its behest by its then Emissary.
There is a reason there's no Winter or Summer here, despite there being in every other major city we've seen.

In agricultural terms, the Hellgate is the boarded up rootcellar, the Sin-Eater lives in the manor, and the city is the garden/estate/homestead around the manor that feeds the homeowner.
While the Emissary is the employed gardener who ensures the fields are tended.

And note: We dont actually know that the Sin-Eater cant act on its own
Just that it couldnt act while it had a traitorous Outsider-touched Emissary on the other end. Thats an assumption that is very likely not true, since I recall something about it eating intruders that came nosing around in years past.

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Just because we act a certain way towards the Reds doesn't mean it's suddenly every other factions personal problem. Winter and Summer actively fight the Outsiders them sometimes getting screwed over by them and having to deal with Outsiders nonsense is expected. They can't be held liable for anything because they are contributing more to protecting reality than the vast majority of factions and screwing them over screws everyone else by proxy.

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We are an aggressive new power with no diplomatic outreach.
Make no mistake: We are absolutely every other faction's personal problem, and people are eyeing us nervously. Even back in Chicago, as you can see with the Alphas interlude.

Thats why I urge moderation so often, so as not to drive some people and factions into reflexive opposition.



Outsiders aim to screw everybody over, not just the Fae.
We canonically know that the White Court had the heir to one of their Houses possessed by an Outsider, as well as the mortal assistant to the White Queen.

If you set that precedent, the Fae get no exceptions.

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So basically things they should already or will be doing later because of the White Council war. Things we'll have to deal with in quest no matter what because we do plan to go to war with them and they may already believe we are doing so anyway.

You seemingly just pulled that out of your ass. You have no idea what they have seriously considered.

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Should =/=Will.

Not under normal circumstances. The Reds in this universe could always have done this, but didnt, despite the war having gone on for half a decade now. Maybe they didnt want to, maybe there were political considerations, or the people opposing certain policies will die, or the Red King will push it. No idea.

We dont have sufficient insight to the urgency of Rampire decisionmaking.


I can only go by capabilities and intentions that has been mentioned in canon or in this quest. I dont get to make them up.
I cant just go Denarians, for example, because Nicodemus expressed an antipathy for them in Death Rites, and so if that changes, the QM would have to say so.

 

[fictionfan]

We are an aggressive new power with no diplomatic outreach.

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We have a lot of diplomatic outreach. White Council envoys, we killed the enemies of the white Queen behind the throne, Winter owes us 2 favors, Summer owes us 3 favors and the Library is willing to send agents plus deploy resources on our word and our father is a knight of the cross with a long career so a lot of good will rubs off.

We have a lot of diplomatic outreach. @uju32 Can you actually name a faction who will care negatively about this who's opinion we care about? I see plenty of factions who will care positively.

 

[Alratan]

We have a lot of diplomatic outreach. White Council envoys, we killed the enemies of the white Queen behind the throne, Winter owes us 2 favors, Summer owes us 3 favors and the Library is willing to send agents, deploy resources on our word and our father is a knight of the cross with a long career so a lot of good will rubs off.

We have a lot of diplomatic outreach. @uju32 Can you actually name a faction who will care about this who's opinion we care about?

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We also have contacts with the Shih, and are in a very good position to negotiate with the Jade Court if we make the effort, with our knowledge of Yomi Wan and what further knowledge we can extract from our captured akuma remains.

 

[uju32]

That a treaty between two factions, and we see quite clearly that the Red Court cares nothing for keeping their word.

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Thats not true.
The Red Court actually kept their word for once, until Changes.
Whether its due to the public nature of the deal, or due to McCoy nuking Ortega, I cant say.

That was a specific treaty banning one specific faction from a specific place as punishment for losing a duel. It doesn't indicate that a faction can make a general claim in the way you're suggesting the Red Court has on Las Vegas. Dresden, the White Council has no such claim on Chicago, nor does Marcone, nor anyone else. We see no examples of such exclusive rights.

We are not banned from Las Vegas as a consequence of our prior agreements. We can do anything we want here that we're strong enough to enforce.

The presence of the Temple of Ra Descending and the others is conclusive ev since that Las Vegas is not owned by the Red Court. It's divided and contested between multiple factions in proportion to their strength.

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The treaty was specifically not treated as something unprecedented. So no, I think you are wrong about that.

Chicago is a historic cross roads and Fae interest, and the White Council does not appear to specifically claim cities besides maybe Edinburgh. Marcone is an organized crime lord, not a landholder, and everyone else had interests here before him.

Las Vegas is not owned by the Red Court, its owned by the Sin-Eater.
It was created at its behest and with the power it invested in its Emissary, and the money said minion was able to organize. The Dragon acted as its Emissary, balancing the factions here for the Eater's benefit.

Las Vegas itself is supposed to be more or less neutral, and major powers have apparently stayed out.
Like I said before, Cold War Vienna.

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Wouldn't making a god as the new Dragon be better? if I'm not misunderstanding something, they could be made specifically to better fit the role. I agree we should have more information before making a decision through.

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Not the kind of job you'd want a sapient creation of ours to do. Better someone with some human life experience in the job.

Besides, I wouldnt want the first field test of our ability to intentionally make spirit beings be the occasion of making a spirit with the metaphysical grunt to serve someone holding a Hellgate closed for eternity.
Thats a little too high stakes for me.

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In every case just quoted it was a matter of letter of law and we are not breaking any letter of law in any way.
So in summary there are two types of fractions whose opinion we might want to count
1.Humanistic like white council or the library.
2. Legalist like the the fey.

Neither groups cares if we bump off a bunch of Red Court here after their local leader was tracking with outsiders. It would be different if we were breaking some agreement, but we very much are not.

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Yeah, we're not going to agree about this.
I just cant countenance the idea that the Fae would not care about precedent.