Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[fictionfan]

[x] Yes, there are still some loose ends to handle
[X]Plan Red be gone
-[X]Buy Night Shallows Secrets (•••) and Broadcast Announcement Prana (•) for 13 XP
-[X]Use intimidation exultancy 1 mote + Demonic Primacy of Essence + Sig
The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell + Wet BSM + merciful Source Code Compliance Protocol.
-[X]Stunt: "One moment please" As the Dragon's body cools you feel your self brimming with authority you let it burst out and every speaker in Las Vegas rings with your voice. "Attention the Local leader of the Red Court in Las Vegas has just been executed for consorting with outsiders and conspiring to destroy the world. As a result all members of the Red Court are hereby banished from the city of Las Vegas. You have 28 days to sell off your local property before you are found out of compliance." You turn back to your phone. "Sorry about that now there are no more loose ends".
-[X] Then use Night Shallows Secrets to stop people from talking about you disturbing the peace.

[X]Plan Painting the town not Red
-[X]Yes, there are still some loose ends to handle
-[X]Summon Maeve and Lily offer them the chance for a fun girl's night out.

 

[BoredMan]

If you can actually catch a nuke going off you can try and find out

Click to shrink...

Mind Hand go crazy.

Amethyst hands is literally the spy order. What do you mean??

Click to shrink...

You said "and a few sorcerers" which would presumably not be experienced agents of the Hand as I understand it.

 

[BoredMan]

With the power the Sin Eater has given him he was only nominally in their hierarchy, really he did his own thing in Vegas and everyone up to the Red King knew that they couldn't recall or replace him without a big bloody battle that would have taken more than one Lord of the Outer Night to win, if at all.

Click to shrink...

I don't think we actually know that. I'm sure he had a ton of leeway but that doesn't mean he didn't answer to the red king.

 

[DragonParadox]

Can we summon both Maeve and Lily? Go on a fun girl's night out. Feels easier to handle.

Click to shrink...

You could... and given that you have not one but two inhumanly good social characters it might even not end terribly.

Seriously though, do not summon Winter and Summer in the same room unless you have some kind of highly structured event that both of them need to attend. They do not get along.

 

[uju32]

We are not breaking any rules. Written or unwritten. A major representative of a Red Court majorly fucked up. So, Red Court gets to shoulder the blame and suffer for his mistakes, paying the recompense. Given the magnitude of the offense, us not slaughtering them all, then popping over to Chichen Itza to drop a balefire elemental on their heads can be considered a very restrained response. Like, I expect Winter to also want their point of flesh after they learn what happened in full detail.

Click to shrink...

Yes we are.

This is not our city, not our place, nor do we have the right to make demands of the Red Court, nor the ability to enforce them.
We are not at war (officially) and they will almost certainly disavow whatever the Dragon did; he was a Red Court vampire, but he was in the employ of the Sin-Eater of Las Vegas.

Ergo the person who can move against them without dispute is the Sin Eater and his chosen representative.
WE dont want that job. At least, I hope noone wants that job.

It was like when Duke Skavis summoned an Outsider while he had Red Court support; the person who had the right to take shit up was the White King. Not us.
Not to mention that we explicitly told a representative of the White Court that we dont want to hang around here.

Honestly, I led myself to far ahead by arguing here.

I'm okay with not holding Vegas. The next Dragon, whoever that may be, probably will do that.
But that doesn't mean we can't kill (maybe with a chance for deportation) and rob all Reds currently here. That's the real point here, anything else is the future.

Click to shrink...

Not our place.We've killed everyone who has stood against us.
Thats a precedent that its useful to set: That people who dont oppose us dont get shanked.
It makes them stay out of our way, or help.

Going after people who did not pick a fight with us sets a different kind of precedent: If Molly shows up in your city, you need to unite and oppose her, because she will make no distinctions.
THAT precedent hurts us.

We can make "suggestions" to the Sin-Eater. More is going to fuck shit up, not help.

I definitely want us taking over Vegas. I feel more strongly about that than I do about what exactly we do with the vampires.

Click to shrink...

No we dont.

This is supposedly supernatural Cold War Berlin. Or Cold War Vienna.
Its supposed to be a neutral city, more or less, and is ringed with treaties and obligations which we have zero idea about the extent. Thats why there was no Winter here, and no Summer. Why they cant enter without being invited.

We do not want to assume any of those obligations or assumptions.

Boston is allegedly free real estate, and we've been invited there.
Vegas is not.
I see no reason to tarry.

 

[Acolyte]

You said "and a few sorcerers" which would presumably not be experienced agents of the Hand as I understand it

Click to shrink...

Presumably it is a entire organization that has its own trained magic users.


If i remember correctly there is a sorcery that can give arcane ratings which should be immensely usefull for spys. I think it might been shadow craft.

 

[Nyarky]

Finally have time to read through the comments:

If you guys want you could summon Maeve, she would answer the call, then you would have the Winter Lady decide on how much Outsider fraternizing is too much Outsider fraternizing. Though you would then have to manage Maeve. Molly does not know much about her, but she certainly feels like a handful.

Click to shrink...

Well, since it's asked that gently:

[X] Yes, there are still some loose ends to handle
-[x] Summon Maeve to ask her how much outsider fraternizing is too much outsider fraternizing.

Let's change the status quo, this is an exalted story, not a powerless one.

 

[BoredMan]

Ergo the person who can move against them without dispute

Click to shrink...

What are you so afraid of exactly? What do you realistically expect the Red Court who are already stretched thin in war and just took a major hit from the White Council before we gave them lazer guns to respond with right now?

Please tell me your worried about something that we weren't already going to have to deal with down the line regardless.

Going after people who did not pick a fight with us sets a different kind of precedent

Click to shrink...

Going after people who were working with the traitor Dragon who would have ripped reality a new asshole sets a good precedent. 👍

 

[Goldfish]

I've got no interest in trying to hold power in Vegas. If we are going to vacate Chicago, we should head to Boston and set up shop there.

 

[BoredMan]

I've got no interest in trying to hold power in Vegas. If we are going to vacate Chicago, we should head to Boston and set up shop there.

Click to shrink...

This vote isn't to hold power here or not it's if we should deal with the human trafficking vamps or leave them to the authorities when the state of emergency forces them to go over everything with a fine tooth comb and Dedalus(or whatever it's called) decides to deal with them on their own.

 

[Goldfish]

This vote isn't to hold power here or not it's if we should deal with the human trafficking vamps or leave them to the authorities when the state of emergency forces them to go over everything with a fine tooth comb and Dedalus(or whatever it's called) decides to deal with them on their own.

Click to shrink...

I know, just felt like it was worth mentioning now.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I think we benefit from doing this quickly and cleanly instead of bringing in outside powers.

I have a clear bias here, but my thought would be:

1) All reds who actively assisted the Dragon die or are stripped of all material possessions and banished depending on what mitigating circumstances they have.

2) Anyone who did nothing doesn't die or get a fine, but they are leaving town and selling off any assets they have here.

3) Anyone who actively helped also has to leave, but they get some loot from the pillaging the people we kill. In fact, just to make this a mess for the red court, we should put them in charge of liquidating those assets with the understanding that they get to keep most of what they take apart.

We don't really need the money and encouraging the reds to eat their own makes managing things after the fact a pain for them.

4) Get Von Trier to send someone to be the new Dragon. Negotiate new terms for the deal so that they're more of the sin eater's business partner than bitch.

5) Make a splendor that lets the new dragon stuff the sin eater with power for basically nothing to hold over his head as additional leverage. Trade it to the Library for this purpose.

Why do this?

As I've stated before, this could be mortal governance in the US' big break. It's risky because it involves trusting a large organization that has made a lot of mistakes with more power, but the Library had been remarkably competent and we have to start somewhere.

If we want mortals to matter we need to start getting institutions that have a reasonable chance to fill that role do so, and ideally make sure the winners of that race are the more reasonable options available.

Guarding this gate is a position of significant but local power which no one really wants to screw with in the big leagues. It's the sort of foundation that gives them the breathing room to build shit without getting knocked down for it and form a foundation they can start to effect change from.

Not all at once, and not without trouble, but flashy murder sprees and distant guardians don't handle the nitty gritty of making things better - institutions do.

Regardless of what we do someone is needed to fill that position, and attempting to build from scratch parallel infrastructure is wasteful and counterproductive.

* For what? Political favors. We don't necessarily want to run the place, but having influence so we can stop them from doing anything crazy if they do disappoint us or otherwise get a little bit of personal benefit isn't totally unreasonable.

Mind Hand go crazy.

You said "and a few sorcerers" which would presumably not be experienced agents of the Hand as I understand it.

Click to shrink...

We have balefire elementals in the FCF, which are basically living magical nuclear explosions that are technically little bits of Molly's soul.

If we wanted something powered off nuclear blasts we'd probably be better off talking one into helping after explaining in exacting detail what we want.

 

[Tiz Goldeneye]

@DragonParadox If the red vote wins, do we go after all of them in the city, or just the ones who assisted Sandra and the Dragon in their plot of their own free will?

 

[uju32]

What are you so afraid of exactly? What do you realistically expect the Red Court who are already stretched thin in war and just took a major hit from the White Council before we gave them lazer guns to respond with right now?

Please tell me your worried about something that we weren't already going to have to deal with down the line regardless.

Click to shrink...

I dont want to give them diplomatic support from people who dont necessarily like them but dont want to set new precedents that might be used against them in the future. Like the White Court.
Or the Fae.

I mean, to run down the list:

• We had multiple senior Summer and Winter Fae possessed by Nemesis and pursuing Outsider plots in the last several years.
• One of them was the Winter Lady. The other was Mab's second in command.
• Hell, the Summer Lady tried to destroy the world several years ago under Outsider influence, and theres a senior Summer Fae still on the run after doing that shit.

Then there was Duke Skavis summoning a combat Walker in Chicagoland, which is something that, by the rules being suggested here, the White Court would be liable for.

I do not think it is in Winter or Summer's interests to set a precedent where whoever stopped them can arbitrarily make impositions on them if that happens again. Or in the White Court's. Or even the White Council; Peabody is an Outsider cultist/supporter IIRC.

Thats a precedent thats is blatantly open to be wielded against them.


If we push this, and the Red Court call an Accords mediation, we will lose.
And we will lose face.
And potentially be asked to pay damages. Potentially.

Even symbolic damages matter when it will help them frame their portrayal of us in the supernatural world.

---

Think of it this way:
The US would not want to set the precedent that anyone who arrests/captures a US official engaged in nuclear terrorism to be capable of declaring the US to be responsible, and single-handedly impose penalties.
Neither would China. Or Russia.

Its not because they love terrorists.

 

[Degorium]

I dont want to give them diplomatic support from people who dont necessarily like them but dont want to set new precedents that might be used against them in the future. Like the White Court.
Or the Fae.

I mean, to run down the list:

• We had multiple senior Summer and Winter Fae possessed by Nemesis and pursuing Outsider plots in the last several years.
• One of them was the Winter Lady. The other was Mab's second in command.
• Hell, the Summer Lady tried to destroy the world several years ago under Outsider influence, and theres a senior Summer Fae still on the run after doing that shit.

Then there was Duke Skavis summoning a combat Walker in Chicagoland, which is something that, by the rules being suggested here, the White Court would be liable for.

I do not think it is in Winter or Summer's interests to set a precedent where whoever stopped them can arbitrarily make impositions on them if that happens again. Or in the White Court's.
Thats a precedent thats is blatantly open to be wielded against them.

---

Think of it this way:
The US would not want to set the precedent that anyone who arrests/captures a US official engaged in nuclear terrorism to be capable of declaring the US to be responsible, and single-handedly impose penalties.
Neither would China. Or Russia.

Its not because they love terrorists.

Click to shrink...

There is a reason deniable assets and cyanide pills exist. That is just the state sanctioned actions that are terroristic and there's the thing countries do that all the time. If you were an American ambassador and you cook up a nuclear weapon that would depopulate 1/3 of an entire country in your Embassy in that country and someone comes in and notices and then stops you immediately the country is correct to immediately expel any citizen in their country and possibly arrest all of them. Never mind possibly execute everyone involved with that Brewing of nuclear weapons. That has nothing to do with national politics that's just the realities of you are abusing a delegation / responsibility to not be cooking nuclear weapons in spaces like that.

 

[uju32]

There is a reason deniable assets and cyanide pills exist. That is just the state sanctioned actions that are terroristic and there's the thing countries do that all the time. If you were an American ambassador and you cook up a nuclear weapon that would depopulate 1/3 of an entire country in your Embassy in that country and someone comes in and notices and then stops you immediately the country is correct to immediately expel any citizen in their country and possibly arrest all of them. Never mind possibly execute everyone involved with that Brewing of nuclear weapons. That has nothing to do with national politics that's just the realities of you are abusing a delegation / responsibility to not be cooking nuclear weapons in spaces like that.

Click to shrink...

Not in the Dresdenverse.

This is a world where Outsiders can and do possess/influence high ranking supernaturals to do shit in the names of their home nations. If nationstates are automatically ajudged responsible for the fuckery that a single official can get up to?
Winter and Summer would have one hell of a bigass bill.

As a reminder, both Mab's second in command, and her heir and daughter have been run as assets by Nemesis in the last five years. The damage they can be linked to is vast. And its not just Winter; Summer Lady Aurora was also possessed and almost destroyed the world.

If we set this precedent, they are on the hook. Neither of them is likely to accept that sort of precedent being set.
So if the Reds invoke the Accords, as is their right, and ask mediation, we will lose.

And this is something that neither of our Favors will cover, as they fall in the exemption loophole about not impairing the Court's ability to do its duty/retain military capacity.

 

[DragonParadox]

@DragonParadox If the red vote wins, do we go after all of them in the city, or just the ones who assisted Sandra and the Dragon in their plot of their own free will?

Click to shrink...

As far as you know those who assisted Sandra and the Dragon are dead so the former.

 

[uju32]

Going after people who were working with the traitor Dragon who would have ripped reality a new asshole sets a good precedent. 👍

Click to shrink...

Dead nor not in Vegas anymore.
If we didnt get them, the Sin-Eater will. He doesnt strike me as the forgiving sort.

 

[TheGrape]

If we push this, and the Red Court call an Accords mediation, we will lose.
And we will lose face.
And potentially be asked to pay damages. Potentially.

Click to shrink...

Molly is not a part of the Accords. If she were, she could challenge the Red Court to single combat and start working her way through all the idiots they send to die.

Nobody ain't asking Molly for shit; if given a chose between provoking Molly or provoking the Red Court, neither the Summer Court not Winter Court nor White Council is stupid enough to cross Molly.

Because right now, Molly is singlehandedly helping the White Council win a war against the Red Court. And has shown the capacity to kill gods in the middle of the Summer Court. And has been a major reason the Outsiders haven't broken into reality recently, while the Red Court's been a major reason they've come close.

Most importantly, the Red Court is currently in a cage match with the White Council, and recent events have shown both sides are taking a beating, with neither side guaranteed to win, with neither side ready to start another war. Molly is comparable to a Freeholding Lord and most importantly an active one, and having her choose to oppose you for the sake of a polity which might not exist in a few years and which definitely isn't capable of helping you against an angry Molly at the moment, is just idiotic.

 

[uju32]

As far as you know those who assisted Sandra and the Dragon are dead so the latter.

Click to shrink...

You mean the former, dont you?
Because if all those who helped Sandra and the Dragon are dead.....

 

[BoredMan]

I do not think it is in Winter or Summer's interests to set a precedent where whoever stopped them can arbitrarily make impositions on them if that happens again. Or in the White Court's. Or even the White Council; Peabody is an Outsider cultist/supporter IIRC.

Thats a precedent thats is blatantly open to be wielded against them.


If we push this, and the Red Court call an Accords mediation, we will lose.
And we will lose face.
And potentially be asked to pay damages. Potentially

Click to shrink...

We don't need their approval to do this Winter is staying out of Vegas even. I don't remember us joining the Accords either. I highly doubt people are going to care enough after what almost happened here along with our reputation to seriously fight the Godkiller on it.

If they do then they were likely organization(s) we were going to have to deal with later on anyway.

To be clear what I'm suggesting is that anytime they gain a foothold near the Gate we deal with them until they stop bothering due to the war they are already fighting. Pouring assets down the drain is not in their best interest.

The US would not want to set the precedent that anyone who arrests/captures a US official engaged in nuclear terrorism to be capable of declaring the US to be responsible, and single-handedly impose penalties.
Neither would China. Or Russia.

Click to shrink...

I expect there to be pushback. I don't expect it to be anything that we weren't already going to have to deal with from the Reds later on.

 

[BronzeTongue]

If we push this, and the Red Court call an Accords mediation, we will lose.
And we will lose face.
And potentially be asked to pay damages. Potentially.

Click to shrink...

The difference is that the fey cleaned their own messes one way or the other and the reds let it go to shit. Getting kicked out of the sensitive area you almost destroyed is barely even a punishment. The dragon was effectively running his own operation out here so they aren't even out much in the way of material resources.

As to mediation? I doubt it because they don't stipulate you have to be nice when you win unless some other agreement is in play.

The Accords are more likely to formally acknowledge our right to legal ownership of any souls of everyone we defeated over the claims of the actual people they comprise than that slap us for winning.

 

[DragonParadox]

You mean the former, dont you?
Because if all those who helped Sandra and the Dragon are dead.....

Click to shrink...

Yep, edited. It's midnight for me BTW, can you tell?

Good night guys.

 

[uju32]

Molly is not a part of the Accords. If she were, she could challenge the Red Court to single combat and start working her way through all the idiots they send to die.

Nobody ain't asking Molly for shit; if given a chose between provoking Molly or provoking the Red Court, neither the Summer Court not Winter Court nor White Council is stupid enough to cross Molly.

Because right now, Molly is singlehandedly helping the White Council win a war against the Red Court. And has shown the capacity to kill gods in the middle of the Summer Court. And has been a major reason the Outsiders haven't broken into reality recently, while the Red Court's been a major reason they've come close.

Most importantly, the Red Court is currently in a cage match with the White Council, and recent events have shown both sides are taking a beating, with neither side guaranteed to win, with neither side ready to start another war. Molly is comparable to a Freeholding Lord and most importantly an active one, and having her choose to oppose you for the sake of a polity which might not exist in a few years and which definitely isn't capable of helping you against an angry Molly at the moment, is just idiotic.

Click to shrink...

That allows us wiggle room. It doesnt allow us to wholesale ignore social conventions, especially when those conventions are what give the mortals around us a modicum of protection.
The Accords are formalization of supernatural norms.

The Knights are not part of the Accords either, but they still do explicitly fight Accords duels and go to Accords mediations.

And while the Denarians were Accords signatories?
Nicodemus was not an Accords signatory when he pulled the ambush and kidnapping of the Archive in Small Favor.
Didnt stop Mab fucking him for it.



Thats not at all how it works. Molly has been on the scene for 7 months only.
She has had an outsize impact in that time. But nobody is building longterm policy around her.
Or making exceptions for her that can cause legal precedents that might stand for another thousand years.



All you are implying is that the Red Court will be incentivized to sweeten the deal for their various backers and prospective backers to get them to ante up.Like the Thrashing Dragons the QM mentioned. Or the Black Court vampires they use as occasional contractors. Or the Fomor who supplied them with the chemical WMD they used in Central Africa.

 

[TheGrape]

Thats not at all how it works. Molly has been on the scene for 7 months only.
She has had an outsize impact in that time. But nobody is building longterm policy around her.
Or legal precedents that might stand for another thousand years.

Click to shrink...

It's hard to build long-term policy when Molly keeps killing the long-lived major power players who irritate her. Asides from the policy to not irritate Molly.

As Battleground showed, legal precedents mean jack shit when the other side can just cave your skull in. As Molly can, and which nobody wants to risk. Odin/Mab/Merlin didn't live this long by playing stupid games.

All you are implying is that the Red Court will be incentivized to sweeten the deal for their various backers and prospective backers to get them to ante up.Like the Thrashing Dragons the QM mentioned. Or the Black Court vampires they use as occasional contractors. Or the Fomor who supplied them with the chemical WMD they used in Central Africa.

Click to shrink...

Exactly!

Which is why we ought to kill the Red Court, since they're the only ones stupid enough to get into a fight with Molly. Everybody else is smartly staying far away and not willing to get involved, or want to lend a hand so once Molly finishes dealing with the next set of immortals, she'll be well-inclined to them.