For context, Knorozov was a soviet scientist, and, at the time, not acknowledged as one of the greats to whom a lot of stuff was allowed. He has never been to Mexico, and in fact has never left Russia. He has not participated in international conferences. He communicated via mail with the journals he published in. He encountered harsh criticism for going against established paradigm from the established masters of the field
They had knowledge of the spoken language and a document where some phonetics were recorded see the De Landa Alphabet. He didn't set foot outside of the USSR, but his work was reliant on documentation that already existed to connect known meaning to unknown symbology via a new interpretation.
Without those keys his work would not have been possible, and shouldn't be taken as proof you can publish a translation guide without similar backing and expect people to buy it.
This isn't a math problem where you solve for X and the source of the formula doesn't matter as long as it's functional. The receipts are part of what validates the utility as something other than an elaborate hoax.
Also creating a key from a already translated work is I don't want to say dead simple because it can be deeply time-consuming if you're not familiar with the linguistic characteristics of the original work isn't difficult either. So creating a key and then translating other works using it or getting one of our minions to do that and then publishing a series of works with the key to say this is a way to translate these things and then letting the world figure it out is also the thing we could do.
Because Academics are people too, and only an idiot stakes their reputation on something citing data they can't see. A translation guide that has no source implies one of three things:
1) Hiding data for some reason
2) Is outright fake and built around showing what you expect to see on the most popular examples of the language, but will fall apart once you try to use it outside your known data set.
3) Someone broke linguistics and isn't sharing.
So most will stop reading at "trust me bro", with a few testing it for giggles. When they can't make it obviously fail some people may start to trust it, but the more they believe the less likely they are to just shrug and accept it.
The guide is only truly useful to them if tied off with foundational proof because a citation chain they can't personally follow stakes their reputation on an anonymous stranger.
For some of the still-untranslated obscure languages, there's a problem that the corpus is very small and it's possible to make up something which looks like it works while being self-consistently wrong, there is so little material to check against. All the available written samples of Linear A, for example, amount to about 7000 letters. The Phaistos Disc is 241 symbols.
For some languages (overlapping with previous), there's going to be a lot of "how did you do this?" scrutiny where lots of people have been working on the field for decades and they've gotten nowhere. If you simply assert an anonymous translation, the field veterans are going to look for the citation and the documentation before they put in their own time to check if it works, and when they don't see any documentation of how this work was done, they're going to file it as a scam and not bother putting in their time. There have been a lot of scams in fake translations, fake artifacts for sale, fake linguistics, fake documentary claims showing why I Totally Am The Rightful King Of Neighboring Nation, etc.
Yep, that is the 'they could have faked it with magic'. What she suspects is actually happening (and keep in mind this is just a guess informed by among other things her biases) is something like this:
Wizard either possesses lost language or rediscovers it, this language has a personal or professional value to them
Original wizard dies, their notes pass on to the White Council as an institution
The council now has these notes in the context of whatever magic was done with them
Notes are filed under the same level of secrecy as the magic, so if Linear A happened to be earthquake magic and summoning the god of Island sinking too bad
I'm gonna note its actually canon that wizards have helped along stuff like the enlightenment and the renaissance in hope of making a world less immediately hostile to them. I mean I assume sometimes its cause morals but a less superstitious more reasonable world is something they actually helped make sponsoring artists, scholars, various modes of science etc etc.
Looking at it another way it's the difference between developing a miracle drug putting the formula out there and what it's supposed to do out with no research and a working sack of pills that analyzed follow the formula. Obviously there has to be a mega ton of tests done on those pills but it's obviously better to get them out there with their formula than it is to just sit on them because you can't prove empirically with complete certainty that they work when other people can pursue their own chain of citation once they see that there is an effect on them.
I want to buy VEE as soon as possible so we can both grant our agents a wish and give them a safe word to teleport home when in life threatening situations.
Not sure where you are getting that. To me it looks like a pretty standard autocracy justified by (literal in her case) Divine Right. All power is held by Molly and she empowers subordinates to manage elements of her realm. There are no limits on her power but what she accepts as a matter of personal morality or practicality. This is a crude comparison as it is still a very small community that doesn't have a formal government and currently allows people to associate or dissociate as they wish.
There could be a comparison to real world Communist governments but that says more about how they tend to degenerate into autocracies with a supreme ruler who justifies their power with a Cult of Personality.
My comment is that we are constructing a low level self-organized society with higher level 'five year plan'-type management system. Money not being used for most internal transactions, basic needs and comfort being considered a base human right with activity being driven by esprit de corps and concern for the welfare of people you often don't even know, pretty much any concern for expansion hinging on seeking a universal good. We've even been thinking about looking into public housing in the future. The actual structure of top-level government is functionally irrelevant.
I just found it somewhat comedic that we kind of bumbled into something various powers in history couldn't get working correctly (ie: not either a natural dumpster fire or something that gets hijacked by some jackass within the first ten minutes) with decades of grievous amounts of effort. Its not some grand statement, its not intentional, but its worthy of a smirk and a shake of the head.
Especially when most people would expect it to go the other way considering the core of the community is a ramshackle collection of natural predators of the human species and the fact that we are a CEO in the making. There is nothing wrong with being a wolf but you don't expect wolves to make great strides in the rights and welfare of sheep.... and yet here we are.
Because Academics are people too, and only an idiot stakes their reputation on something citing data they can't see. A translation guide that has no source implies one of three things:
1) Hiding data for some reason
2) Is outright fake and built around showing what you expect to see on the most popular examples of the language, but will fall apart once you try to use it outside your known data set.
3) Someone broke linguistics and isn't sharing.
So most will stop reading at "trust me bro", with a few testing it for giggles. When they can't make it obviously fail some people may start to trust it, but the more they believe the less likely they are to just shrug and accept it.
The guide is only truly useful to them if tied off with foundational proof because a citation chain they can't personally follow stakes their reputation on an anonymous stranger.
I mean, what are the odds we can crack linguistics and share? We are literally capable of inhuman success. What are the odds we could literally crack linguistics and then simply share the breakthrough as real science?
We really need to start arming and training trusted people of the Last Station. Bronze was right about building up the base defences but not doing so with the people who are willing to fight to protect it. Before we leave Chigaco I think we need to have handled that with all our aggro.
[X] Both acceptance and frustration: it's understandable, but still annoying as they could simply release this anonymously.
-[x]But you have to acknowledge that would in fact be a act of charity that they aren't actually obligated to do.
[x] Devastating hurricanes that could be easily turned aside by weather-witches forced to hide their powers for fear of being eaten, innocent bystanders killed in droves by supernatural dangers they didn't know to avoid, teenagers executed for breaking Laws they had no way of knowing existed… there are so many tragedies that people simply accept as the cost of doing business in the current Age, an unchangeable reality that must simply be accepted. Objectively, you know that this is a relatively small thing compared to all that, for all that you find it personally galling. -[x] But you know it COULD be better, your own soul contains the proof-of-concept for a world where these problems AREN'T problems. Something deep in your soul whispers that you could change it, turn the Wheel of Ages and make the new Age in your own image, that you are Exalted, that this is what you were MADE for… -[x] It takes more effort than you want to admit to push the thought down, and your internal refusals feel less like "no" and more like "not yet," but you do accept that this is probably the best that the White Council can do right now with everything else on their plate, even if it's not the best that you can do, if you want to put the effort in.
I can't see any reason that we don't choose. Charms tend to be convenient on our side and if sent to our own hell we have lord of the land to decide where new arrivals show up.
Don't know if we can use VEE to send an assault force into the Treasury room of a Yami king. Although that does seem like a great story so maybe. QM usually like giving players ways to get into trouble.
I mean, what are the odds we can crack linguistics and share? We are literally capable of inhuman success. What are the odds we could literally crack linguistics and then simply share the breakthrough as real science?
Well, there is that one charm that uses the "language behind all languages" or something like that to force everyone to speak the Primordial language, Source Code Compliance Protocol, IIRC, so if we got that charm and put some effort into reverse engineering it we could probably "solve linguistics forever" or something, but there's no guarantee that the results would be comprehensible, or even safe, for mortals to look at, given the full effects of the charm.
Well, there is that one charm that uses the "language behind all languages" or something like that to force everyone to speak the Primordial language, Source Code Compliance Protocol, IIRC, so if we got that charm and put some effort into reverse engineering it we could probably "solve linguistics forever" or something, but there's no guarantee that the results would be comprehensible, or even safe, for mortals to look at, given the full effects of the charm.
It might not even be safe for local metaphysics. The world might be forced to bend if it was spread too thickly and if might not be able to.
[X] Acceptance, it makes sense to avoid putting people in danger
My vote won't matter on a clearcut matter like this but I may as well put down my 'x'. The policy makes sense though eventually it probably should be overturned. But not without a hell of a lot of discussion and foundation laying to the point that we have an actual coherent society that isn't going to set itself on fire if somebody opens the wrong can of worms. Magical or mundane.
We'll get society to the point its something robust and reasonable but even for us that is going to be the work of ages. This isn't a boat we want to rock and this isn't the hill we want to die in.
[X] Both acceptance and frustration: it's understandable, but still annoying as they could simply release this anonymously.
-[x]But you have to acknowledge that would in fact be a act of charity that they aren't actually obligated to do.
I'm gonna note its actually canon that wizards have helped along stuff like the enlightenment and the renaissance in hope of making a world less immediately hostile to them. I mean I assume sometimes its cause morals but a less superstitious more reasonable world is something they actually helped make sponsoring artists, scholars, various modes of science etc etc.
While that is true 'giving people access to the translation guide to Proto-Elamite' is not going to meaningfully change how the world sees wizards or indeed change the wider culture, it it just going to make historians happy.
While that is true 'giving people access to the translation guide to Proto-Elamite' is not going to meaningfully change how the world sees wizards or indeed change the wider culture, it it just going to make historians happy.
More just adding that into the discussion than wanting you to do anything about it. Though maybe some hints in the world building someday like mentioning enlightenment thinkers being taught, sponsored, or friends with wizards.
[X] Both acceptance and frustration: it's understandable, but still annoying as they could simply release this anonymously.
-[x]But you have to acknowledge that would in fact be a act of charity that they aren't actually obligated to do.
[x] Devastating hurricanes that could be easily turned aside by weather-witches forced to hide their powers for fear of being eaten, innocent bystanders killed in droves by supernatural dangers they didn't know to avoid, teenagers executed for breaking Laws they had no way of knowing existed… there are so many tragedies that people simply accept as the cost of doing business in the current Age, an unchangeable reality that must simply be accepted. Objectively, you know that this is a relatively small thing compared to all that, for all that you find it personally galling. -[x] But you know it COULD be better, your own soul contains the proof-of-concept for a world where these problems AREN'T problems. Something deep in your soul whispers that you could change it, turn the Wheel of Ages and make the new Age in your own image, that you are Exalted, that this is what you were MADE for… -[x] It takes more effort than you want to admit to push the thought down, and your internal refusals feel less like "no" and more like "not yet," but you do accept that this is probably the best that the White Council can do right now with everything else on their plate, even if it's not the best that you can do, if you want to put the effort in.
Click after click the pages pass to Clippy, from her to Iris, whence they can be called up. This secrecy, this use for special interests alone, to pry apart some magical mystery doesn't make you entirely happy, but it's why Harry brought the book over. It's a gift, a thoughtful one and sure to be of use in the months to come so you are greatful for that and even more so for the implied trust of opening more avenues of study after all the alarming magic you've been performing.
Lost 2 Essence -> Now at 13/15 (Empathy and Subterfuge Excellencies)
Speaking of alarming magic and the products thereof... Out of the corner of your eye you analyze Lash, cross-legged in the couch petting Mister who for his part enjoys his due from all too ledgers, eyes narrowed into slits, purring like a lawnmower. She isn't just doing it for something to do with her hands, you don't think, she seems to be enjoying the contact, the novelty of being able to touch something at all. For his part Harry is trying not to stare and failing.
"OK," you say, setting Clippy aside. "Lets go get Bob his present."
Lash waves helplessly at the cat in her lap as if to ask 'does this look like it's moving?'
"Well you're the one who gave him a reason to hang around you," Harry points out.
"That is because the cat has more sense than you do," she sniffs, turning to you, as much as she is able at least. "I gave Mister a tune up, nothing overly complex, just smoothed over all the aches and pains, removed scar tissue and joint wear. Harry here wouldn't take the offer."
"I don't accept massages from strange women," he shoots back, half jokingly.
"I've been inside your head, that is about as far from a 'stranger' as you can get."
Harry opens his mouth, looks at you, closes it.
Deliberately misinterpreting the message you shrug. "Don't look at me, I think she has a point."
Never in your life have you had a more exacting control of your facial muscles because yeah the thought of Lash 'running up' Harry does not make you happy, but the absolute worst thing you could do in this situation is show it. That would give him another reason to fall for her, dissuading you of that 'silly little crush'. So you are going to play it as cold as the heart of the howling Wastes.
Harry sighs and heads for the throw rug that hides the entrance to the laboratory, but Lash frowns ever so slightly the subtle light in her eyes growing brighter, an expression that would not be out of place in the mirror you have to admit. "Be careful," she half whispers. It is not advice on how not to descend the stairs into the laboratory without spraining your ankle, but it's also not a threat, more of a neutral warning.
What do you do?
[] Quietly ask Lash what she means
[] Stay silent, follow Harry
[] Write in
OOC: I know this is very short, but we have just had social combat with inhuman numbers of successes thrown around on a matter that involves one of Molly's intimacies so I feel how you handle this should be up for a vote.
It is a grey area if demon freebies can grant merits at all. It says: These points can buy or improve traits such as attributes, abilities or willpower, they cannot be used to buy points in Background. So they are just not mentioned in either category, I think the reason for that is that Demon, the core book does not have merits and flaws at all
I am going to say she definitely cannot go full VEE and make someone immortal with one faith point, She can do metal, physical and social merits up to 3 points lets say, reasonably strong stuff but not Spirit Magnet or the like. Lash does not have the authority for it.
1)They are supposed to function as Freebie Points, with the explicit exception of being used for Backgrounds.
I dont really see why they wouldnt be used for Merits as well.
2)I would respectfully disagree with the reasoning because it contradicts the Lore on how Pacts work:
Once the demon has decided on what abilities to bestow upon the thrall, the two enter into a pact. The demon agrees to imbue the thrall with power, while the mortal agrees to serve in whatever way the two agree upon. At the Storyteller's discretion, the mortal might qualify as a source of offered Faith (see Offered Faith, p. 250), but there are many other ways in which a mortal can help her master.
With the pact finalized, the deal is sealed with the demon's gift. Imparting a gift to a mortal requires nothing more than a turn's concentration. Many demons, however, like to add ritual and ceremony to the procedure in order to impress their new thralls. After concentrating, the demon mentally reshapes the thrall's soul, using the mortal's Faith as a tool. The stronger the thrall's Faith is, the greater the changes the demon can make to her essence, and the more powerful the gifts the demon can bestow upon her.
Pacts are about reshaping the soul and essence of the mortal on the other end. Its essentially magical surgery.
It requires the mortal's permission (granted when the Pact is agreed upon) and doesnt extend beyond his person. Thats not really an authority thing, just a skill and power thing.
You dont need authority to give supernatural upgrades to a subject.
Else Kindred of the East Kueijin would not be able to bargain(Soul Commerce) for investments from the inhabitants of Yomi Wan, nor would Infernalists be able to do the same thing.
Hell, fomor would not exist, because most banes arent big on consent either.
As for this AU?
Lord Raith would not have Immunity to Mortal Magic if the Outsiders that apparently gave it to him required authority in Creation.
They have no authority here.
Besides, the Darkhallow in canon DF sure as hell doesnt require any particular authority to change a mortal human into a god.
Full template swap, not just a couple merits.
I would speculate, that this is the narrative reason its explicitly stated that Demon Freebies cant be used to purchase Backgrounds.
Granting dots in Backgrounds essentially requires reality warping the rest of the setting.
Upgrading a single person does not.
I am going to say she definitely cannot go full VEE and make someone immortal with one faith point, She can do metal, physical and social merits up to 3 points lets say, reasonably strong stuff but not Spirit Magnet or the like. Lash does not have the authority for it.
This isnt VEE. Its closer to a nerfed Inner Devil Unleashed, the 3-dot fomor-making charm. And the end result is still generally weaker than a common fomor breed like an Enticer, which has superhuman social Attributes (Charisma 6, Manipulation 6, Appearance 6) out of the gate.
More broadly, IMO you're missing the major point of VEE. I quote:
Verdant Emptiness Endowment (•••••)
Even the damned pray, and the Infernal may choose to answer these prayers. When the Infernal hears another being express a wish to be something they currently are not (stronger, smarter, more beautiful, more wealthy, and so forth), she may reach out with her Essence to grant the stated wish, even if the wish was not uttered in serious expectation of fulfillment. There is, of course, a price.
System: Upon hearing an uttered wish, the Infernal may spend 5 Essence to grant it. The world conspires to bring about the Infernal's blessing as soon as possible, usually within the same scene. The beneficiary knows only that the hand of fortune is upon them, and they may accept or reject it. Rejection costs a point of Willpower. Sensing the sinister price attached to the gift re- quires a Perception + Awareness roll against difficulty 8.
The Infernal can grant any of the following: a dot of an Attribute; a dot of an Ability; a dot of a Background; a Merit; or she can remove a Flaw. No character can have more than one wish granted in the course of a year.
There are two hidden prices to the Infernal's gift.
First: At any point after granting a wish, the Infernal may approach the beneficiary and ask them to perform one task on her behalf. The task may be as involved or lengthy as the Infernal desires, so long as it isn't impossible or utterly suicidal, and so long as it has some defined end-point within a year and a day. If the beneficiary refuses or shirks the Infernal's task, he is ripped from the world and cast into the Hell of Burrowing Maggots... and he is instinctively aware of the wages of disobedience, once the task has been spoken. Second: After accepting three gifts from the Infernal, the beneficiary becomes a creature of darkness, instinctively loyal to the Infernal, who reduces the difficulty of all social rolls against the character by three.
In addition to dots of Attributes, Abilities, Flaws and Merits, VEE bestows Backgrounds.
It can make a homeless bum into a multimillionaire(Resources 0 to Resources 5), a US Army private into a general(Status 0 to Status 5, Influence(Military) 5), a beat cop into the police commissioner, or a fresh agent into an FBI director(Status (Law Enforcement) 1 to Law Enforcement 5).
It can provide an entire armory of restricted military weapons in a totalitarian police state(Arsenal 0 to Arsenal 5), or make a Wonder fall into your lap out of the blue, or upgrade that Wonder, or create a Cult, or give you dots in Totem, or a Dragons Nest.
Thats the sort of widescale bullshit that requires outright reality warping the rest of the setting, not just the candidate.
The only real restrictions are that it takes time and patience to do, so five years to max out a Background.
Which isnt really relevant to the timescale of many games. But for a longterm nation/conspiracy builder spanning multiple decades of IC work, it would be story-defining.
Demon Pacts do no such thing.
They are limited to personal-scale changes of the candidate, they explicitly require permission of the candidate(VEE requires that the candidate say no), and the pool of potential changes is limited.
Even the perfect candidates max out at a Faith potential of 5, which vastly limits the kind of powers you can give them; each feature of the Demon's apocalyptic form costs 1 Faith point, and giving them limited Lore evocations is even more expensive.
And you cant raise their base Attributes above 5.
Compared to, say, basic fomor breeds?
Your Enticers and Sons of Typhons are better at social, your Gorehounds better killers, and Shadowfiends are better assassins.
And thats before you get to Fomorachs and Ferectoi.
Nevermind Joe Solar over there spamming You Could Be More and Awakening Mages.
TLDR
This is a nerf that really isnt necessary narratively or mechanically.
The results of demonic pacts are already vastly weaker than anything a Celestial Exalt in ExWoD can do.
This house rule makes them weaker yet.
TLDR
This is a nerf that really isnt necessary narratively or mechanically.
The results of demonic pacts are already vastly weaker than anything a Celestial Exalt in ExWoD can do.
This house rule makes them weaker yet.
A note here VEE does require that someone say 'I wish for X' in some form, a positive statement, they just don't have to say it to the infernal or be serious about it also while it can grand background points it can do it only one point at a time, the first wish only gives the homeless man a job, it takes 5 to make him a multimillionaire and that is 5 years
That said you do make a good point about how pacts with demons work in lore and potentially granting supernatural abilities. I am still inclined to cap it below VEE but well... there is a merit about having the Devil's own luck.
