Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Forgot we had that. Would need liquid despair + Life energy but that would be blowing it on her.

Then again, we are not using it for anything.....
We could probably make it into a "universal supernatural hunger supplement", use the crown to see how it can be replicated without gossamer... and probably get a discount for MMP for our efforts. We are definitely not making it without gossamer until at least alchemy 5. May not be able to make it right now.

@DragonParadox do we know enough to attempt to make something that would sate vampiric hunger in the same way as MMP would using gossamer to bypass a lot of steps? Assume we are working with Bob, and throw excellencies at it, and probably use a crown question on a whampire (and maybe also on a red and jade vampire, and a ghoul) to learn more about how their hunger works.
 
Not sure if I want to use it on her and not say payoff Mab for what ever she may tempt us with in the meeting.
 
Forgot we had that. Would need liquid despair + Life energy but that would be blowing it on her.

Then again, we are not using it for anything.....

Gossamer should be able to become something that would feed her yes, though it should also be noted that since she has control of her hunger right now thanks to MiS Isabela can feed non-lethally from sources of despair. funeral homes and burials common. Of course non-lethally doe not mean without harm, but is is better than actually killing someone, or more likely several someones since most Whites do not get the control down on the first go.
 
Gossamer should be able to become something that would feed her yes, though it should also be noted that since she has control of her hunger right now thanks to MiS Isabela can feed non-lethally from sources of despair. funeral homes and burials common. Of course non-lethally doe not mean without harm, but is is better than actually killing someone, or more likely several someones since most Whites do not get the control down on the first go.
Wait. The issue, as I remember it, is that she still has to sate her hunger fully for the first time, and it takes enough in a single feeding to kill a normal person. Until then she doesnfully fledged and become a whampire with full native control of her power.

Was this ruling changed? What are the functional differences between Isabella under MiS effects and a normal whampire?
 
Wait. The issue, as I remember it, is that she still has to sate her hunger fully for the first time, and it takes enough in a single feeding to kill a normal person. Until then she doesnfully fledged and become a whampire with full native control of her power.

Was this ruling changed? What are the functional differences between Isabella under MiS effects and a normal whampire?

The first time a White Court Vampire feeds they have no way to stop before sating fully which is guaranteed to kill a human, after that is becomes hard for the vampire to stop rather than impossible, native control is not perfect, but it is something that can be improved upon was my point.
 
The first time a White Court Vampire feeds they have no way to stop before sating fully which is guaranteed to kill a human, after that is becomes hard for the vampire to stop rather than impossible, native control is not perfect, but it is something that can be improved upon was my point.
So she needs at least one full feeding without the artificial control of MiS to learn to control her hunger, possibly more.

But if she never leaves MiS she could be a normal and fully functional Whampire without ever killing, by drinking in moderate amounts?
 
The first time a White Court Vampire feeds they have no way to stop before sating fully which is guaranteed to kill a human, after that is becomes hard for the vampire to stop rather than impossible, native control is not perfect, but it is something that can be improved upon was my point.
But she hasn't fed yet. So she'd still be unable to stop from killing someone once she starts, right? MiS just means she's (temporarily) able to refrain from starting.
 
But she hasn't fed yet. So she'd still be unable to stop from killing someone once she starts, right? MiS just means she's (temporarily) able to refrain from starting.

Ah... no, it means she is now a White Court vampire who can stop and start their hunger with a skill comparable to the most experienced of elders though artificial means. Isabela has fed enough off Sarah Greene to awaken her hunger it's just that she has no native control over it, all of her control comes from Mercy in Servitude.

So she needs at least one full feeding without the artificial control of MiS to learn to control her hunger, possibly more.

But if she never leaves MiS she could be a normal and fully functional Whampire without ever killing, by drinking in moderate amounts?

Yes, she's a vampire whose hunger is bound not by her own will but by the gift of the Infernal exaltation.
 
Chicago has better public transport options than most of the US, and regardless of that, cars arent a luxury here like in much of Europe, but a necessity.

*Is European*

*Has absolutely no idea what you mean by cars being a luxury there*

No, really, I don't come from a rich family at all, and my parents, my sister, and me all have a car each, and my sister and me had one from the moment we could drive.
 
*Is European*

*Has absolutely no idea what you mean by cars being a luxury there*

No, really, I don't come from a rich family at all, and my parents, my sister, and me all have a car each, and my sister and me had one from the moment we could drive.
I'm an American living in a city with much worse transit than Chicago, and I don't get what they mean either. It's absolutely possible to get by without a car in most US cities. Certainly in Chicago.
 
It's not one person, though? It's her entire social circle. There are enough skavis and other types of whamps running around for them to have peer groups in Chicago, in which the type of awakening you have (i.e. "how you murder someone") are discussed, planned and determine one's social standing. MMP and a bit of social engineering ("I got to have a meal with the new and ultra-cool celestial demon queen! She personally made me dinner! And I got my powers out of it, and my hunger is super easy to control now!" talk writes itself) can totally solve the whole issue
The one person in this equation is her, I don't care about the social disruption among the skavis clan in this context. It's a toxic environment where being popular and influential involves being an asshole, so we should probably be trying to get her exposure to other people anyway.

White whamps don't. Fledgelings do become something else:
Doesn't this just support my point? Not being a murderer is significant for this purpose, but we should also be thinking of what this flavor of primordial essence brings to the table.

Lots of social for her to hold off until we get MMP?
This same discussion is just going to happen again. The rationale against getting it will be the same, and even if we did have it using it on Isabella would be a very bad idea.

It's kind of a dick move to come out of a contentious vote and immediately go into "we'll just do this again until the opposition gives up".

Yes, she's a vampire whose hunger is bound not by her own will but by the gift of the Infernal exaltation.
So this isn't actually a problem after all; she isn't missing out on anything by being stuck like this, as long as she doesn't betray us.
 
*Is European*

*Has absolutely no idea what you mean by cars being a luxury there*

No, really, I don't come from a rich family at all, and my parents, my sister, and me all have a car each, and my sister and me had one from the moment we could drive.
Pretty sure he's talking about the fact that Europe generally has a much better mass transit system in comparison to the US. In some US cities you can get around well enough without a personal vehicle, but there are only a handful that are really pedestrian friendly from what I understand. Outside of those specific larger cities, it is very difficult to go about your daily life without a vehicle simply because everything is so far apart.
 
So this isn't actually a problem after all; she isn't missing out on anything by being stuck like this, as long as she doesn't betray us.

So you're not ok with a -1DC but you're ok with placing her on a *do what I say or die* situation? Because that's what it ends up being at this point, she is ok... as long as she does what we want, I see that as far worse than the -1DC.

Pretty sure he's talking about the fact that Europe generally has a much better mass transit system in comparison to the US. In some US cities you can get around well enough without a personal vehicle, but there are only a handful that are really pedestrian friendly from what I understand. Outside of those specific larger cities, it is very difficult to go about your daily life without a vehicle simply because everything is so far apart.

There's still the problem Tsotate pointed out, that Chicago is not a good example for that apparently, and I wouldn't call cars a luxury item in that case, I would just say you don't need them. Luxury implies *can't buy them because they're too costly*, not *don't need them*.

And you do need a car in most of my country to be able to work easily, the only time I saw people not taking having a car as normal was when I was in Paris, this is the only place I ever saw where the mass transits where so predominant that you really didn't need a car (well, until you reach your first strike of the subway and suddenly that car seems like it is really necessary, and there are strikes often enough you can probably ends up getting a car anyway), and I did go in some other cities, not the biggest, but they are exceptions, not the rules, most of the country is not those big cities, and most of the population isn't in them.
 
Ah... no, it means she is now a White Court vampire who can stop and start their hunger with a skill comparable to the most experienced of elders though artificial means. Isabela has fed enough off Sarah Greene to awaken her hunger it's just that she has no native control over it, all of her control comes from Mercy in Servitude.
Ok, so, to be clear: right now Isabella is effectively (meaning her abilities are the same, her powers are the same, her hunger is the same, her lifespan is the same) a normal fully fledged Skavis vampire. She has perfect control of her hunger, rivaling or even exceeding those of elders of her family. She can feed, and use the energy she obtained via feeding to fuel her supernatural abilities as normal. She can store the energy she obtained via feeding for later use, like other whampires can.

However, this state of control is artificial, fully imposed by MiS. No matter how long she spends under MiS, or how much she feeds, she doesn't actually get any experience and ability to control her hunger. The moment she leaves the effects of MiS, her control reverts to zero, and remains such until she feeds on someone to death.

The question is: what happens to the energy she has stored while under MiS effects? Let's assume she spends the next year or so slowly feeding and not using her abilities. She fully charges her hunger while under MiS to the point she can't store any more energy. Where does it go when MiS expires? Does it explode out of her? Because Dresden Files actually pays at least a bit of respect to conservation of energy.
The one person in this equation is her, I don't care about the social disruption among the skavis clan in this context. It's a toxic environment where being popular and influential involves being an asshole, so we should probably be trying to get her exposure to other people anyway.
Strategically, there's also Red Half-vampires. Who transform much more when feeding on humans for the first time (because it universally and absolutely involves a murder), suffer more, and are more innocent in that they didn't get a choice to awaken their hunger. And there are also ghouls (do they need human flesh when first going through super-puberty?).

Even leaving them aside completely - you said it yourself: skavis and other whampire clans are a very toxic environment, essentially murder cults. If we can extract people from them, and reform them, I would argue that it's a moral imperative to at least attempt so, as long as it doesn't hinder our other actions.
Doesn't this just support my point? Not being a murderer is significant for this purpose, but we should also be thinking of what this flavor of primordial essence brings to the table.
Which is why I am ok with waiting until we get our kingdom, as it changes the essence flavor from "hell of burrowing maggots" to "Primordial Molly's world body".
This same discussion is just going to happen again. The rationale against getting it will be the same, and even if we did have it using it on Isabella would be a very bad idea.

It's kind of a dick move to come out of a contentious vote and immediately go into "we'll just do this again until the opposition gives up".
That's how democracy works, though? If you are campaigning for something, and lose the election/vote, you don't just abandon the cause completely. You continue to campaign for it, and vote for it in the next election / vote. Until you win, or the circumstances change and you abandon the cause.

By not choosing to buy MMP this turn, we don't bar ourselves from buying it next turn, or the turn after the next. Same as with other charms, abilities, backgrounds, etc. Not unless we make an explicit vote to prevent ourselves from buying certain charms in the future, and I don't see it happening.

EDIT:
So this isn't actually a problem after all; she isn't missing out on anything by being stuck like this, as long as she doesn't betray us.
Mechanically, and psychologically, the bondage we are putting her in by this is likely much harsher than the one created by MMP.
 
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There's still the problem Tsotate pointed out, that Chicago is not a good example for that apparently, and I wouldn't call cars a luxury item in that case, I would just say you don't need them. Luxury implies *can't buy them because they're too costly*, not *don't need them*.

And you do need a car in most of my country to be able to work easily, the only time I saw people not taking having a car as normal was when I was in Paris, this is the only place I ever saw where the mass transits where so predominant that you really didn't need a car (well, until you reach your first strike of the subway and suddenly that car seems like it is really necessary, and there are strikes often enough you can probably ends up getting a car anyway), and I did go in some other cities, not the biggest, but they are exceptions, not the rules, most of the country is not those big cities, and most of the population isn't in them.
I'm not saying anything about the mass transit situation in Chicago. Never been there and never talked about the pedestrian situation with anyone who has.

You're just reading too much into uju's comment. He obviously didn't mean most people in Europe were unable to afford cars.

It's a proven fact (I'm not going to bother citing sources, but they exist if you want to look for them) that daily life in the US is generally much more difficult without reliable transportation. It's not just a matter of getting to work, but also to school, to places which sell fresh food, to doctors and hospitals, etc. There's a lot of space, so we've spread out more than absolutely necessary, and that's not necessarily a good thing.
 
Ok, so, to be clear: right now Isabella is effectively (meaning her abilities are the same, her powers are the same, her hunger is the same, her lifespan is the same) a normal fully fledged Skavis vampire. She has perfect control of her hunger, rivaling or even exceeding those of elders of her family. She can feed, and use the energy she obtained via feeding to fuel her supernatural abilities as normal. She can store the energy she obtained via feeding for later use, like other whampires can.

However, this state of control is artificial, fully imposed by MiS. No matter how long she spends under MiS, or how much she feeds, she doesn't actually get any experience and ability to control her hunger. The moment she leaves the effects of MiS, her control reverts to zero, and remains such until she feeds on someone to death.

The question is: what happens to the energy she has stored while under MiS effects? Let's assume she spends the next year or so slowly feeding and not using her abilities. She fully charges her hunger while under MiS to the point she can't store any more energy. Where does it go when MiS expires? Does it explode out of her? Because Dresden Files actually pays at least a bit of respect to conservation of energy.

No amount of energy can solve the problem, what she is missing is control and to get that control she needs to experience what it is like to fully feed without the MiS restraints on. If you let her go while she is full, she would be fine for a while, but then once the tank was empty again she would still have no control until she got that first feeding in.
 
But it's a solvable problem.

We can keep her in our service as long as it takes to find a solution, without any damage done to her now or permanently.
That's arguable. Effects of prolonged stress ("I die if I offend this scary person, who I don't fully understand, and who holds moral values strongly divergent from mine") can leave someone with long-lasting mental issues. Imagine, for example, if you were taken from the street, and got a bomb collar strapped around your neck. You are then told "as long as you follow my orders and don't offend me, it won't explode, but if you do, it'll explode automatically, since it can read your mind". The person who tells this to you is someone you don't know. They say that they are, for example, Zoroastrian, and that their religion is a core part of their life and moral values. You are then left like this for a year. Are you coming out of it unscathed?
 
That's arguable. Effects of prolonged stress ("I die if I offend this scary person, who I don't fully understand, and who holds moral values strongly divergent from mine") can leave someone with long-lasting mental issues. Imagine, for example, if you were taken from the street, and got a bomb collar strapped around your neck. You are then told "as long as you follow my orders and don't offend me, it won't explode, but if you do, it'll explode automatically, since it can read your mind". The person who tells this to you is someone you don't know. They say that they are, for example, Zoroastrian, and that their religion is a core part of their life and moral values. You are then left like this for a year. Are you coming out of it unscathed?
Keep in mind that the worst case here for her is an uncontrolled feeding, which she has been expecting and prepared for most of her life.

Molly did not put a bomb on her that does anything worse than what she was about to do by herself when we first met her.
 
So you're not ok with a -1DC but you're ok with placing her on a *do what I say or die* situation? Because that's what it ends up being at this point, she is ok... as long as she does what we want, I see that as far worse than the -1DC.
The morality debate took a lot of the focus of the thread, but it was only one of three major problems I have with the charm. I've been pretty consistent about that so it shouldn't be a surprise.

I also consider the type of the effect a significant factor here. Mechanically it's "only" -1 DC, but it works by modifying people who should be able to trust us not to do that.

the situation with MiS isn't ideal, but it's stable and the problems with it can be mitigated on our side.
Mechanically, and psychologically, the bondage we are putting her in by this is likely much harsher than the one created by MMP.
I don't really agree.

She doesn't really care about killing other people for this purpose, and betraying us just means she has to eat someone the messy way to stay stable.

Right now she's sticking around because it's a buff to her fancy new super powers and being involved with us is a potential point of personal gain.

Edit: will reply to the rest later, I've got a long drive I need to finish first.
 
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Keep in mind that the worst case here for her is an uncontrolled feeding, which she has been expecting and prepared for most of her life.

Molly did not put a bomb on her that does anything worse than what she was about to do by herself when we first met her.
I don't really agree.

She doesn't really care about killing other people for this purpose, and betraying us just means she has to eat someone the messy way to stay stable.

Right now she's sticking around because it's a buff to her fancy new super powers and being involved with us is a potential point of personal gain.

Edit: will reply to the rest later, I've got a long drive I need to finish first.
This is arguable. Her initial feeding was arranged by her "uncle". An uncontrolled first feeding, in a situation that hasn't been carefully set up is absolutely a large problem. And trying to arrange one to leave our service might well count as trying to betray us / working against us and drop MiS prematurely - because remember, it's plugged in and monitoring not just her actions, but also intent. If she drops into a frenzy in the middle of her family, or unfledged friends, that's certainly going to be traumatic to her and others.
 
This is arguable. Her initial feeding was arranged by her "uncle". An uncontrolled first feeding, in a situation that hasn't been carefully set up is absolutely a large problem. And trying to arrange one to leave our service might well count as trying to betray us / working against us and drop MiS prematurely - because remember, it's plugged in and monitoring not just her actions, but also intent. If she drops into a frenzy in the middle of her family, or unfledged friends, that's certainly going to be traumatic to her and others.
Her family can propably handle that, they must have experience with vampire teenagers.

And keep in mind that her Hunger only goes of when there's despair nearby. She's extremly unlikely to suddenly get a wiff of that in most normal social settings.
 
Now, XP calculations:
We spent 6 XP already. To get to alchemy 5 we'll need:
6 XP to alchemy 3 9/2=4.5=4 XP to alchemy 4
12 XP to alchemy 5
22 XP total left to spend, 28 XP total.
We get 3 free recipes per dot. This is much more versatile than most 5 dot charms, except Kingdom one. And by getting the kingdom charm we essentially negate the issue of alchemical recipes, if we take advanced technology, and fluff the realm to have alchemists loyal to us in large numbers, who will share their recipes with us. Why is this much more versatile? Well, here's the quote from QM about what we get at 5 dots:
If you need 6 dots 54 xp total to make a philosopher stone you should need 6 dots to make an your a mage potion. Compered to taking splinter gale 20, and VEE 20 and having clones train/wish to develop the Path's it very xp inefficient.
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Feb 17, 2023 at 8:06 AM, finished with 137 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] In the time honored tradition of younger siblings getting the hand me downs of their elders, once Daniel gets his driver's license you will give him the Beige Wagon, with the understanding that he will care for it properly and eventually pass it down to a younger sibling himself once he has the means to acquire his own vehicle.
    [X] Offer to buy him a car as soon as he gets his license, you have the money and you can make more
    -[X]Empathy Excellency
    -[X]STUNT: You hiss melodramatically at him, clawed hands outstretched. "Its my precious. Mine! Nasty hobbitses cant have it. Gollum, Gollum." You hold the pose and a straight face for almost five seconds, then Olivia bounces an empty beer can off your head, and all of you simultaneously crack up. In a more normal voice, you continue. "Yeah well, I can drive, and according to the Illnois Secretary of State's office, you can't. Yet." Daniel makes a face at you, and you stick your tongue back out at him before continuing. "Get your license, and I'll see about buying you wheels."
    [X] Offer to buy him a car as soon as he gets his license, you have the money and you can make more
    -[X] Empathy excellency to prevent him from feeling insecure or resentful
    -[X] It won't be something luxury, but your parents got you Beige Wagon, so it's only fair that now that you have the means, you even the field and get him something equivalent


Yog's and mine combined is 8. The write in is 6.
Dunno how the QM might choose to count it though.
More votes please.
 
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