Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
You know, I find it irritating that there are good arguments shown, strategies being discussed, plans being made, and then come Uju with his ideas that other people points out as not being the best, and he instantly wins the vote.
[X] Plan By Your Voting Combined
[X] Plan Hail to the Queen
[X] Plan Hail to the Queen v2
[X] Plan By Your Voting Combined
[X] Plan Hail to the Queen
[X] Plan Hail to the Queen v2
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Hard to jump off the bandwagon once it starts going.
But if it makes you feel better I changed my vote, not that I do not think Uju32 is going to loose or anything.
- Location
- Germany
I did like the different crown-questions, that's why I switched.
Not the name.
Well, I am biased, but I think that the amount of land hits vastly diminishing returns relatively quick. In an advanced technological society, people are the resource, not the land, not even the natural resources inside the land. You can have smaller and denser worlds with more plot potential than vast empty deserts. My advice would be: don't make the land empty. Vast deserts, yes, but with ruins of ancient civilizations strewn here and there, with oases and sandworms, and endless storms.
If each individual hell had ten times as many operatives available at a time, than the whole of Winter does, they would have outmaneuvered Winter long ago.
Maybe Doylistically, definitely not watsonially. From in-story perspective, it doesn't look like that.
Just as a note as I saw a misunderstanding up-thread, but Emma-O's Shikome are greater akuma. He only makes greater akuma from female Japanese Wan Kuei as part of his (misogynistic) revenge on the Japanese for what happened to the Ainu.
Also tangentially relevant is Emma-O's and Kakuri's background. He was the god of the dead for the Ainu and Kakuri was their heaven/afterlife.
If a descendant of the Ainu finds themselves in Kakuri they go to a part of it that is still a heaven, rather than the desolate wastes that others (particularly other Japanese people) are tortured in.
In the crossover, this has interesting implications for what Emma-O is, not just a regular Yama King, but a god who has donned another mantle. Depending on the history/origin of the gods, he may have access to knowledge beyond his peers.
Also tangentially relevant is Emma-O's and Kakuri's background. He was the god of the dead for the Ainu and Kakuri was their heaven/afterlife.
If a descendant of the Ainu finds themselves in Kakuri they go to a part of it that is still a heaven, rather than the desolate wastes that others (particularly other Japanese people) are tortured in.
In the crossover, this has interesting implications for what Emma-O is, not just a regular Yama King, but a god who has donned another mantle. Depending on the history/origin of the gods, he may have access to knowledge beyond his peers.
Last edited:
Some people have done a good job at presenting what the Wuan Kuei are, but I worry that not everyone has read and considered all of it and seeing as Molly has a literal occult specialty in Kakuri I feel it makes sense to do a informational post on them and what it may or may not mean to be akuma.
Jade Court and the Akuma
Jade Court and the Akuma
Risen from the horrific trials of Yomi Wan, from the befouled rites that made the Ten Thousand Immortals all of the Wan Kuei begin their existence as nothing but a ravening corpse risen from its grave to devour the living and the dead alike. Rightly are they named the Demon People, for the Po Soul of these ill fortuned folk takes on the guise of a demon of Yomi Wan, one which can even be harnessed or unleaded. In that sense all of the Hungry Dead appear to be perfect servants of the Yama Kings, forged by the horrors of their domains every bit as much the dark spirits that pay them homage.
However for all their fallen nature the Wan Kuei are heirs of those who were tasked long ago to oppose the Yama Kings and their works, so it is given to them to rise where their predecessors fell. By following the Dharma, the paths of enlightenment the elders of the Jade Court seek to become so restored, to lead others to that same state even. It should be noted that the Ancestors do not do this because they are necessarily virtuous or even repentant. For many it is because in the rotting of their flesh with the rays of the sun, in their aversion to prayer scrolls and True Faith they see the weakness and ultimately their own future enslavement at the hands of the very horrors who enslaved them long ago. If one does not rise, the common wisdom holds, than you shall fall into the grasp of the Yama Kings and become akuma.
As with many societies though philosophical idealism and political practice do not always align. the Yama Kings, some of them former Wan Kuei themselves hold vast stores of secrets and wisdom of earlier ages which can aid one in rising in the politics of the court or even to fulfill one's Dharma for what better test of one's right-understanding of virtue that to outwit an agent of ultimate corruption?
Officially, formally all those who deal with the Yama Kings are akuma to the Jade Court and its Dread Sovereign, but it is filled with the whispers of spirit binders and the midnight counsels of those who seek to use the intrigues of the Yama Kings against each other. In the Fifth Age. these heretics claim. virtue alone cannot win against vice, but cunningly turn one foe against another on the path to Enlightenment. That this is not entirely different from what little is known of the mentality that lead to the fall of the Wan Xian does not escape the more orthodox follower of the Dharmas, nor does the fact that it is a small step between aligning with evil against evil as a tactic to aligning with evil as to be more fit for a world in which it dominates. So there is war and treachery among the court, accusations and deception beneath the veil of tradition and propriety, just as there is war and strife in the soul of each of the Hungry Dead.... or at least most of them
While the Wan Kuei may sell slivers of their souls to the Yama Kings and still strive towards enlightenment they never know the measure of their own soul, for that is only given to those who have reached the Hundred Clouds, the pinnacle of Dharma. So every deal with the masters of Yomi Wan is made with the understanding that this one might be your last that one might have handed them the last piece of yourself and utter control over all that you are. It is a matter of some theological debate among the Jade Court if the Yama Kings can see how much of a petitioner's soul they have yet to claim. Usum can put that to rest, they can as soon as they take the first sliver of soul though they are usually extremely circumspect in using the pieces of a partially claimed soul to directly sway the Wan Kuei, much preferring blackmail, bribery and intimidation because they have learned though the long ages that such is almost an assured means to lose their tools and all the toil and effort that went into cultivating them
The vice of the Po soul is unrestrained passion, the vice of the Han soul is unrestrained pride. to visibly attempt to chain them before the chain is unbreakable is to force them into desperate unity of purpose that will lead to escape far more often than not. So other than those who have passed the last tipping point, the Greater Akuma, most of the servants of the Yama Kings are only bound to their masters by interests, arrogance or philosophical nearness.
To put this in terms more familiar to Molly just as a member of the Order of the Blackened Denarius can cast off their coin so can most of the shikome renounce the gifts of Kakuri and step once more on the long slow path towards enlightenment. Even dead souls bound in accoursed flesh have free will so long as there is even a sliver of them which is still their own.
OOC: Hope this helps you guys in dealing with the Hungry Dead and the Yama Kings
Last edited:
Yeah, I can see the reasoning, if they think you need to get more than one part to be under control, then you will have *clients* willing to go and give you *just this one part* and unknowingly fall under it, then you can convince them to give *just one more* and pretend that they gave too much to convince others that the previous ones just gambled too much.
Whereas, if they instantly take control, they'll get less *clients* and potential infiltrators/Spies/Fallguys.
@DragonParadox
You put this as a story rather than information threadmarks
You put this as a story rather than information threadmarks
Fixed, thanks.
Hmm... It looks like Usum's insights transcend those (commonly available to) of Jade Court. @DragonParadox how valuable would Big Book of Yomi Wan: Immortal Edition (now with additional SAN loss checks!) be to Jade Court members? As in the book with our insights but less filters between mortal mind and the ultimate truth held in the book. Calibrated to the hungry dead, as it was.
Significantly so, you would probably be able to call an army in at a target of your choice off that if you handed it off to the right elder.
One of the interesting things about playing the young Hungry Dead is that enlightenment is hard, and the dharmas are quite different to human sensibilities, so there's a lot of internal conflict or simple misunderstanding.
There's some interesting stuff in the Devil Tiger book about how lots of young members of that dharma try to do banal evil and cruelty to understand wickedness, and it usually doesn't work, and neither does merely punishing the wicked. Playing that conflict, as well as the ex-human's challenge with adopting a new and quite different moral code can be interesting.
As a note, I think in some places it's suggested that becoming a Yama King is a form of successfully completing the Devil Tiger Dharma. One of the possible goals for it is replacing the Yama Kings with celestial devils who still fulfil their duties to Heaven as punishers of the wicked*. Whether they stay loyal - or even survive the other Yama Kings who likely strongly disapprove of them, is an open question. If they do, there are probably some amongst the lower profile Thousand Hells that more informed and enlightened elder Wan Kuei may be less hesitant about dealing with (in terms of things other than their own souls), as they may be ruled by old companions and allies.
As a further note, one of the Yama Kings who survived until at least the 13th Century was one of the original generation of the Wan Xian that took the Second Breath towards the beginning of the 3rd Age. He explicitly avoided the Heaven's Curse by entering Yomi Wan and creating his own hell when he felt it being levied. The implication is that he avoided the curse because he stayed loyal to heaven while doing so, just as his three peers who ascended to Heaven to become celestial ministers at the same time did.
* which may be those parts of the dharma more influenced by the precursor Path of a Thousand Screams dharma.
Would the question "who is the most virtuous / good according to my sensibilities Jade Court elder" be a valid question, or would that run into "exaltation can't see itself"?
Because I can see an appeal of allying with parts of Jade Court, if there are good ones there.
That is too close to home to se yes, stuff like that is up to Molly's value judgement.
Hmm... As a workaround, if Molly writes down the definition of virtuous / good in some material way (i.e. writes an essay "this is what I consider a good person") would she then be able to use the question "who is the Jade Court elder best fitting the definition of good as described in this essay?". Perhaps burning two foci - the essay and whatever is used to provide the link to Jade Court Elder (probably some jade Court member)?
I don't think we should hand off the book wholesale anymore, because it gives up a lot of buying power at once. It's a reference text, so we could break it up into packets with relevant bits and sell those as needed.
If we found a young Jade Court member (like, Dharma 1, or even 0) who just escaped the hell they were in, we could take them under our wing and quickly improve their stats with the book, I think. The question is would they be considered an akuma...
- Location
- Germany
Definitly.
Even sane and non Yama-aligned Wan Kuei count as Akuma if they don't follow the traditions.
Also for now I'm not sure if we could restore the sanity of a Dharma 0 Chi-Mei.
Maybe with the right Charm, but not by our mere existance.
The problem with that is you are asking an Infernal Exaltation to make a moral judgement, that is not really what they were made or altered for.
I'm not suggesting we sit on our hands for the next five days either, just that we play politics as they're playing them. I don't think they'll drop everything immediately and assume the game is up, they'll email us back and this will turn into rounds of negotiations, assuming they actually want to talk at all. Maybe one of us strikes before then, but all we're doing is playing particularly hostile politics by sniping with them over the location.
You tend to jump feet first into the deep end with this sort of thing, even when it isn't necessary.
There's also a significant difference between existing Jade court members and people who join our faction directly. I don't think either should get unrestricted access to whatever deep lore we have on hand, but the latter is a lot more acceptable than the former.
In general giving (or trading) them bits at a time as they need it is a better way to build and maintain a relationship, in addition to being lower risk on a number of levels.
To what extent would it matter though? Politically being an Akuma is bad, but unless we get on the jade court's bad side we're not actually a Yama King. Even having a hell doesn't make them one of them in the sense of the history they jades have with the thousand hells.
I could see it being something they are more willing to tolerate or ignore, similar to how the white council handles notable sorcerers and mortal practitioners in the service of other powers.
As to the baby jade thing, I think MiS would cover it if we could make it bow. It works on psychological issues induced by fomor powers, so I don't see why it couldn't restore clarity to someone suffering from a demonic transformation.
At some point, as I mentioned before, I want to haul a Wan Kuei to our workshop and ask about their metaphysical make up. That would make such a text much more valuable.
We could do the same with individual dharmas, or possibly even a specific individuals unique path.
While elder Wan Kuei would pay a lot for general insight they can apply to themselves and their juniors, they'd probably be willing to offer to move Heaven and Earth for tailored advice that would help their personal enlightenment, as it gets progressively harder the more enlightened they are.
The other things it would be very interesting to learn about would be first the Curse on the Wan Kuei, secondly why it's become worse as the ages have passed*, and thirdly, is it possible to reverse that progression and allow a Wan Kuei to exist as they did in the 4th Age.
* Notably, it became worse at different times in different places over the course of nearly half a millennium.
It shouldn't, because there's a much more expensive charm designed for that very purpose.
And the issue Wan Kuei have is less that their Po soul is demonically tainted and more that their soul is split in half and the two halves are struggling for control. Reunifying their soul is part of the goal of reaching enlightenment (although there's a high level discipline power that temporarily manages it).
Last edited: