Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1) Molly is an infernal exalted, a fountain of corrupt essence whose soul is so large that it overflows from her body; who has specific charm that push her influence on other beings, and even beings that aren't the target of can notice the specific charm.

Cyberdevils are so insignificant they can't be VEE-ed.

These are not the same thing, and are not equally noticeable. And despite that, people still can't detect what Molly is or where she comes from. Just that she's major league bad news.

2) Contracting with a fey is a form of binding. The distinction should be impossible for anyone that's not Molly to discern. They won't know she hasn't previously cut a deal with them.
1)On our first visit to his home, Mathews literally picked out Clippy from inside a purse from across the room against the background of Molly's aura and Dresden's magic everything.
The assertion that they are unnoticeable is demonstrably false.

Let alone a situation where you are literally putting them in the hand of another practitioner to hold and examine at leisure.


2)Citation very much needed.
Because to the best of my knowledge, this is just wrong.
 
1)On our first visit to his home, Mathews literally picked out Clippy from inside a purse from across the room against the background of Molly's aura and Dresden's magic everything.
The assertion that they are unnoticeable is demonstrably false.

Let alone a situation where you are literally putting them in the hand of another practitioner to hold and examine at leisure.


2)Citation very much needed.
Because to the best of my knowledge, this is just wrong.

1) I'm not saying they're unnoticeable. You're moving the goal posts. I'm saying that their origin isn't casually detectable.

2) I cite Binder. He has a contract with the entities he is described as Binding.
 
1) I'm not saying they're unnoticeable. You're moving the goal posts. I'm saying that their origin isn't casually detectable.

2) I cite Binder. He has a contract with the entities he is described as Binding.
1)No Im not.
You want to put cyberdevils in phones these women will carry around for years in their hands.
Thats like giving someone a Android phone and not expecting them to recognize the OS.

2)Binder has a contract with some entities. He can summon them.
We dont know the terms, or the limitations, just that they are temporary manifestations. Nowhere does it state or imply this is something where he can bind them to items and hand them out.

Furthermore, Binder is more than a hundred years old iirc. He has enough power for life extension to kick in.
He is a sorcerer, not a minor practitioner.
A lot more like Morty than say, Anna.
 
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1)On our first visit to his home, Mathews literally picked out Clippy from inside a purse from across the room against the background of Molly's aura and Dresden's magic everything.
The assertion that they are unnoticeable is demonstrably false.
While I agree with @Alratan that this is indeed moving goal posts, I'll also engage with this - the ease at which cyberdevils seems to fluctuate strongly. The 1000 years old valkyrie seer wasn't able to detect Black Rider at all, despite literally being inside them for a prolonged period of time.
1)No Im not.
You want to put cyberdevils in phones these women will carry around for years in their hands.
Thats like giving someone a Android phone and not expecting them to recognize the OS.
I'm sorry, but yes, you are. Cyberdevils are dark spirits. That's true. Them being demons should be damn well unknown. They as a species should be less than 50 years old at the moment, their point of origin is an exotic hell realms deep in the NeverNever that doesn't have anything to do with the western world, as far as we know. MInor practitioners aren't going to recognize them.
 
1)The Darkhallow was a death flavored vortex supposed to rip life from a several mile wide area. Pretty blatant to magic senses.

Furthermore, Grevane alone brought a company of dead bodies turned zombies to the ritual site on college grounds, which would have been there in the aftermath, along with Grevane's body and Sue's skeleton.Its really not the sort of thing that anyone even slightly clued in would miss. Any more than they missed news reports of Cassius' dead body at the museum.

My two cents.

2) Dresden was announced as regional commander immediately afterwards.
Lotsa people would have put two and two together.
Even if its not why Luccio did it.

They would certainly know that Bad Shit (TM) had gone down and the White Council was involved in dealing with it. That said the true scope of the danger would likely be beyond what most could sense or divine afterwards. For obvious reasons many minor talents would not even want to risk diving that thing.

Secondly and I think most importantly, this is the kind of threat the Wardens are known to deal with, scary cult, Old God rising etc... By contrast what looks like individual abductions do not fit the bill and do fit into the pattern of wider neglect.
 
This, less so.
Most older wizards do not appear to live in cities, or advertise their city of residence like Dresden did. Other than Edinburgh and Archangel. So activity is likely to be noted more by its absence than by where its working.

Of course, this is the North American experience.
Most of the wizard population is outside the US. No idea how that goes.
How is that unfair? If you live in a tower at the edge of town and do nothing to help the people in it when they need you, but do support a brigade of enforcers that will kill them for breaking your laws, then you can't complain if the locals don't think you're helpful and the environment is more dangerous for them than it would be if you were helping.

They aren't obligated to do it, but the consequences of what they do choose to do are still present.

Thats just cities with Paranet presence and contact numbers for locals.
Essentially a rolodex for the technologically challenged.

2)Nope.
Before his death Paranet wasnt very public.
It became less covert after he died and the Fomor War ramped up, which was when the modern Paranet evolved.

Furthermore, they were part of his job. It wasnt personal.
There was no expectation that you could hurt him personally by targetting Paranetters, especially if retaliation was assured and disproportionate.
He still should have known how wide spread they were. Also I'm pretty sure that map had incident pins on it as well but that snip doesn't show it.

It's public in the sense that it's known to the major supernatural powers. It's not exactly subtle and they're openly engaged with the council on top of their truly explosive recruiting campaign.

They can't possibly be secret, and going after their immediate leadership would impact his circle pretty directly.
 
Sorry. Had to run an errand.
... How is this evidence of them not being a problem? They are explicitly noted here as dangerous - something for minor practitioners to stay away from. I don't follow the logic at all.
Morty is an ectomancer.
He deliberately keeps a low profile, but according to the Leanansidhe he is as powerful at wrangling ghosts as Dresden is at general magic. In canon, he was Corpsetaker's preferred victim for possession. Dude is no minor.

He advertises himself as a medium.
If hauntings were an issue, dude would have been making mad bank from that source of income.
He wasnt.
1) Not all real estate agents are spiritualists, or believe in magic, or care if their clients die in five years time.
2) Chicago Cubs are a significantly bigger business than some apartment where, for example, electronic breaks after a year and a day.
1)By your own assertion, you are looking for real estate where market values have fallen because of hauntings.
I assure you that real estate agents care very much about their money, and things that fuck with it.
If this was a thing, exorcists would make a good living.

2)The Chicago Cubs being a bigger business doesnt actually make them more profligate.
Take a look at what US sports clubs pay their cheerleaders.

3)Thresholds are a thing.
By definition a ghost cant enter the threshold of an inhabited private home and do you harm unless you invite it in.
Or unless its hellaciously powerful.
Further correction: the knowledge Bob has of Thousand Hells is spotty and wrong, as shown here:
Note that by the quote, Bob believing that the White Council doesnt know this might well be wrong :V
Especially since this is post-Evil Bob, who presumably took most of the information on demons and necromancy that he learned with Kemmler in the divorce.

In Changes, Ebenezar calls in a favor from what are essentially tengu(Ebenezar called them kenku, Japanese bird people/spirits) to bring an army of hundreds to Chitchen Itza. Thats not a person who doesnt know the Asian spirit world.
Notice how it's specifically designed to be helpful to White Council. This at the very least indicates that Dresden and Bob both believe that White Council is not in possession of this information.
Yes. And note that Harry Dresden has always been an unreliable narrator, a baby wizard who has repeatedly been demonstrated to know less than he thinks he does. The White Council has no interests in making it easier for magic practitioners to contact the Thousand Hells, after all, and the temptations therein.

Im not saying the Book of Yomi Wan wont be useful, mind; if there's book(s) out there, its probably restricted, and Dresden certainly hasnt been allowed access to it. Getting him access is worth doing. But it doesnt mean those books dont exist.
Just like the Merlin's diaries are in Ebenezar's possession, not an open magic library.

Random malks knew that the history of our exaltation. They knew that we took it from Arctis Tor, and that it was a treasure of winter:
Yes. Our escape from Arctis Tor was a big event, remember?
Dresden threw Summer Fire into Winter's heartspring. Triggered a recall of Winter's military forces back towards the capital.
That was a big deal. Plue we fought a bunch of Winter fae.

It's quite plausible that they have seen it before, and it's very unique in feeling, I am willing to bet.
Doubt that very much.
Fae dont have a given lifespan Im aware of, but nothing suggests this one malk was old enough to have seen Enma-O's forces attempt to wield Usum's shard in combat.

Furthermore, Brother Divishmar, who has experience of the shen of Asia, says we feel like an archdevil.
Not something entirely new with infernal overtones.
I believe him.
 
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Sorry. Had to run an errand.

Morty is an ectomancer.
He deliberately keeps a low profile, but according to the Leanansidhe he is as powerful at wrangling ghosts as Dresden is at general magic. In canon, he was Corpsetaker's preferred victim for possession. Dude is no minor.

He advertises himself as a medium.
If hauntings were an issue, dude would have been making mad bank from that source of income.
He wasnt.

1)By your own assertion, you are looking for real estate where market values have fallen because of hauntings.
I assure you that real estate agents care very much about their money, and things that fuck with it.
If this was a thing, exorcists would make a good living.

2)The Chicago Cubs being a bigger business doesnt actually make them more profligate.
Take a look at what US sports clubs pay their cheerleaders.

3)Thresholds are a thing.
By definition a ghost cant enter the threshold of an inhabited private home and do you harm unless you invite it in.
Or unless its hellaciously powerful.

Note that by the quote, Bob believing that the White Council doesnt know this might well be wrong :V
Especially since this is post-Evil Bob, who presumably took most of the information on demons and necromancy that he learned with Kemmler in the divorce.

In Changes, Ebenezar calls in a favor from what are essentially tengu(Ebenezar called them kenku, Japanese bird people/spirits) to bring an army of hundreds to Chitchen Itza. Thats not a person who doesnt know the Asian spirit world.

Yes. And note that Harry Dresden has always been an unreliable narrator, a baby wizard who has repeatedly been demonstrated to know less than he thinks he does. The White Council has no interests in making it easier for magic practitioners to contact the Thousand Hells, after all, and the temptations therein.

Im not saying the Book of Yomi Wan wont be useful, mind; if there's book(s) out there, its probably restricted, and Dresden certainly hasnt been allowed access to it. Getting him access is worth doing. But it doesnt mean those books dont exist.
Just like the Merlin's diaries are in Ebenezar's possession, not an open magic library.


Yes. Our escape from Arctis Tor was a big event, remember?
Dresden threw Summer Fire into Winter's heartspring. Triggered a recall of Winter's military forces back towards the capital.
That was a big deal. Plue we fought a bunch of Winter fae.


Doubt that very much.
Fae dont have a given lifespan Im aware of, but nothing suggests this one malk was old enough to have seen Enma-O's forces attempt to wield Usum's shard in combat.

Furthermore, Brother Divishmar, who has experience of the shen of Asia, says we feel like an archdevil.
Not something entirely new with infernal overtones.
I believe him.
Not saying they aren't knowledgeable. But you know even a single place like the British isles alone likely has more supernatural stuff throughout history than a single practitioner can know. Much less the whole world and for the yomi book well someone certainly has that information not many must have information towards many hells and be willing to give that info. There's no way anyone has gone through all those hells and written a book available for the council.

Edit: not to say they have no info of the hells the nevernever is literally endless though there's no way anyone in the council in the last few centuries has been in one of those hells and escaped and learned much about multiple.
 
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While I agree with @Alratan that this is indeed moving goal posts, I'll also engage with this - the ease at which cyberdevils seems to fluctuate strongly. The 1000 years old valkyrie seer wasn't able to detect Black Rider at all, despite literally being inside them for a prolonged period of time.
Kattrin demonstrated not all that great senses.
Maybe Black Rider was just that good. Maybe it was her. Maybe she was already partway through the Black Feast prep and it messed with her ability to see shit around her.

Maybe its just that in WoD, Awareness and Occult are two different things used for sensing magic/supernatural stuff, and you can have great Occult and shitty Awareness.

I'm sorry, but yes, you are. Cyberdevils are dark spirits. That's true. Them being demons should be damn well unknown. They as a species should be less than 50 years old at the moment, their point of origin is an exotic hell realms deep in the NeverNever that doesn't have anything to do with the western world, as far as we know. MInor practitioners aren't going to recognize them.
Why would it? You may not be able to distinguish a darter from a cottonmouth, but you can tell they are both snakes.

Baka-baku were literally less than twenty years old as a species when Butters first met one in a hospital,(literally spontaneously generated from children's feelings over a popular Japanese toy) and Harry recognized it from a description in the Day One short story. You underestimate how quickly these things are categorized.

Not to mention that we have no idea if any of the Yama Kings or their agents have used them before.

They would certainly know that Bad Shit (TM) had gone down and the White Council was involved in dealing with it. That said the true scope of the danger would likely be beyond what most could sense or divine afterwards. For obvious reasons many minor talents would not even want to risk diving that thing.

Secondly and I think most importantly, this is the kind of threat the Wardens are known to deal with, scary cult, Old God rising etc... By contrast what looks like individual abductions do not fit the bill and do fit into the pattern of wider neglect.
1)I do not agree.
You'd look, or find someone who would. You'd ask around and share notes.
Something that big in your immediate vicinity is very much not something you can afford to ignore.

2)That seems fair.
How is that unfair? If you live in a tower at the edge of town and do nothing to help the people in it when they need you, but do support a brigade of enforcers that will kill them for breaking your laws, then you can't complain if the locals don't think you're helpful and the environment is more dangerous for them than it would be if you were helping.

They aren't obligated to do it, but the consequences of what they do choose to do are still present.
If they dont live in cities, its kinda hard to keep tabs on the pulse of things if you arent particularly outgoing.
And wizards(at least according to Butcher) tend to lean towards nerds who are comfortable with holing up for days or weeks at a time on some scholarly problem. And not all that many of them are comfortable with combat.

Just happens that Dresden both lives in a city. And is a combat wizard to boot.

He still should have known how wide spread they were. Also I'm pretty sure that map had incident pins on it as well but that snip doesn't show it.

It's public in the sense that it's known to the major supernatural powers. It's not exactly subtle and they're openly engaged with the council on top of their truly explosive recruiting campaign. They can't possibly be secret, and going after their immediate leadership would impact his circle pretty directly.
As I understand it, those werent incident pins, just identifying cities.

Work associates, not friends. Furthermore, the Paranet is not a unitary organization. There is no national leadership, just individual cities/regions. And any sort of largescale attack requires both longterm infiltration(intelligence doesnt grow on trees) and risks escalation and retaliation, at which point you arent fighting Dresden, you're fighting the White Council.

The juice is not worth the squeeze.
Explain to me what Pauline was talking about then.
1) There are some creatures of the NeverNever that specifically have permission to cross thresholds and haunt people.
Boogeymen/boggarts. Also underhides. They disturb children, principally.
See the short story AAA Wizardry.

2)Haunt does not imply real estate. Or necessarily ghosts.
(In the Dresdenverse)People can be haunted by non-ghost spirits, and possibly other entities. Some of which can cross thresholds, or trick you into inviting them in.

A spirit, or group of spirits, can pick on a person for days or months or years at a time, sometimes to death. See the Day One short story, where Stan and a bunch of children patients are haunted in hospital by a baka baku. See the short story Zoo Day, where Maggie Dresden is haunted by a group of children-specific phobophages who are apparently permitted to do so by celestial Law.

As in, Mouse wasnt allowed to interfere.
 
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Council's headquarters in Edinburgh, firstly because they could not find the place and secondly even if they could, a couple of wizards would be enough to brush off any number of minor talents.
this is one aspect often overlooked in magical/fictional worlds like that. In very baseline human society and up, numbers are very important. Several weaker humans can overpower a strong one and thus get them to socialize/negotiate with them. In a magical world where a single wizards, hokage, captain, celestial master, etc, can overpower dozens if not hundreds of 'average' opponents single handedly, or substitute them with the ability to generate 'robot' servants (undead, clones, magically brainwashed minions) - the social structure would be much different.
The differences between 'classes' would be much more deep and much more profound. Imagine if all those 'divine' tyrants, 'god' kings, etc. actually had all those magical powers they claimed.
but by definition that will only get rid of the ones who have the resources to leave so you are left with plenty of discontent).
that's what head-cutting is for ;). with no accountability of course.
 
1) There are some creatures of the NeverNever that specifically have permission to cross thresholds and haunt people.
Boogeymen/boggarts. Also underhides. They disturb children, principally.
See the short story AAA Wizardry.

2)Haunt does not imply real estate. Or necessarily ghosts.
(In the Dresdenverse)People can be haunted by non-ghost spirits, and possibly other entities. Some of which can cross thresholds, or trick you into inviting them in.

A spirit, or group of spirits, can pick on a person for days or months or years at a time, sometimes to death. See the Day One short story, where Stan and a bunch of children patients are haunted in hospital by a baka baku. See the short story Zoo Day, where Maggie Dresden is haunted by a group of children-specific phobophages who are apparently permitted to do so by celestial Law.

As in, Mouse wasnt allowed to interfere.
I am talking about this:
Pauline is a real-estate agent and though she has gotten some use out of her affinity to spirits in knowing to stay far away from certain properties she mostly keeps magic separate from her professional and home life.
What. is. she. talking. about? If hauntings are not a thing, what was she staying away from, and, other than semantics, why shouldn't we be getting the list of these properties to cleanse?
 
Hauntings are indeed a thing and they are bad, there is all of one Mort and the greater Chicago area has 10 million people, that is a lot of houses and a lot of unquiet dead over its long history. Not everyone who is suffering from one is inclined to pay for a ghostbuster or able to find a real one.

More on this in the morning.
 
I am talking about this:
What. is. she. talking. about? If hauntings are not a thing, what was she staying away from, and, other than semantics, why shouldn't we be getting the list of these properties to cleanse?
1)She has an affinity for spirits.
Non ghost spirits can haunt properties and portions of real estate.
And they can be possessive about it.

Never mind the Fae.

EDIT
QM has ruled otherwise.
 
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Hauntings are indeed a thing and they are bad, there is all of one Mort and the greater Chicago area has 10 million people, that is a lot of houses and a lot of unquiet dead over its long history. Not everyone who is suffering from one is inclined to pay for a ghostbuster or able to find a real one.

More on this in the morning.
That is likely the bigger problem. There isn't any ghost buster certification and I bet that there are a lot of frauds out there. I expect that frauds are a big part of the reason the masquerade can keep going. There is real money in scamming and it is likely even more common in DF.
 
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Shades and Spirits
Shades and Spirits

By Pauline Moskowitz​

There is a reason about four in ten Americans believe ghosts exist, why frightful tales told around the fire are called ghost stories and that reason is ghosts... are... everywhere. Even when accounting for all those who pass on or suffer some grave mishap the dead outnumber the living, they swarm like moths before the flame just on the other side of the veil, most little more than sparks on a spectral wind, stray shards of dream, nightmare and emotion set loose by a particularly violent or sorrowful death, but sometimes the soul itself is jarred loose and send out as a mariner upon grey seas. They sail for hatred, for wrath, for vengeance and justice, some wanting to protect their descendants some just out for blood. Yet the city is vast and the living swarm over it garbed in the polyester armor dyed in colors synthetic. Under steady neon glow the shadows flee the dead are in retreat, morgues and funeral homes that would once have been replete with the wrathful dead, not for nothing were the people of the pre-modern age so opposed to the study of anatomists and physicians, are now as sterile in the realms ethereal as they are in the material, as though bleach and alcohol could banish the wandering souls.

Yet wander they must those who cannot find their way forward and so they cling to the places were the certainties of modern life crumble before mysteries enduring or those more steeped in the relics of what had come before. Beneath the feet of Chicago more than ghouls and vampires dwell, as you had found. The Corpsetaker did not bring the dead there, she merely bound them to their torrents. Tormented they are indeed even without the hand of such as she, unable to be seen, unable to be heard, unable to stroke the hand of a loved one in passing or to press cold fingers upon the throat of a hated foe their discontent can only grow and grow, like ripples in the water disturbed from below they impinge upon the world of the living. These are murky waters indeed that most eyes cannot see save perhaps as a shadowy figure out of the corner of the eye, dismissed as a phantasm of tired eyes, the dry whisper of words worn down to nubs nothing more than the wind.

Most of the dead cannot make themselves known to mundane people, assuming there is even something there able to be known, but un places where the veil is particularly disturbed they are certainly felt. Animals become unaccountably skittish or aggressive, people are overcome with migraines, malaise even allergies. If they should go to a doctor they would be diagnosed with stress, anxiety or something suitably vague. Most people do not even see the darkness in their homes or offices, lacking the belief or innate sensitivity to see beyond the Veil into the deathscape beyond. Outright inexplicable incidents, the mark of a poltergeist are rare in such cases of pervasive malice because the departed does not really carry ill will towards a particular person in a particular manner, but rather there mere presence is like the miasma medieval physicians claimed caused illness. The problems persist until they either move out of the haunted space or the knot of dark energies resolves itself with the simple passage of time.

Death is a river, sooner or later all will be carried away.

Those who still have minds, wills and desires tend to seek out places of strong magic both because such places allow them to manifest more easily and because the people to congregate there are more likely to actually converse with a spirit rather than rationalize it away. Go to enough houses and you can recognize both eventually

OOC: Can't sleep, may have drunk too much coffee, here is that ghost info from Pauline's PoV.
 
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Has Lydia been doing anything about that at least in undertown? Seems like it would have been a good use of her time when Molly was fixing up the place with hellish tools. Also it seems right that she should have some minions of her own.
 
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Has Lydia been doing anything about that at least in undertown? Seems like it would have been a good use of her time when Molly was fixed up the place with hellish tools. Also it seems right that she should have some minions of her own.
Seems like something that might earn her some XP, too.
 
We are in a weird balance where I want to include her in pretty much everything, I want her to be a player of her own and not just an asset, but she has so much crap on her plate already that I'm afraid its unfair to give her more. I'm afraid that she won't know when to ease off things, which is admittedly hypocritical coming from Molly, but I also want to treat her like an adult and trust her ability to set her own boundaries.
...
And then we became our mother.
 
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