Not to mention that most of the Primordials could throw around infinity level of power on top of it being a perfect.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- Crossover Fantasy
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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Yup no finite amount of power beats infinite power.
The Lensmen series and Tengen toppa gurren lagann are two series that both had demonstrated power scale that make the Angel's described (not demonstrated) power seems like small potatoes. The Exalted host would beat both of them.
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I couldn't care less how Primordials and Archangels compare in "canon" whereas we are running a fused setting that needs to have all of its narrative elements, roles mostly respected and accounted for.
Primordials vs Archangels will be decided by DP once it is relevant. I could go dig for obscure factoids and various late E2.5 books where Primordials or Sol with his deathstar mount do silly shit, try to claim powerlevel primacy of one setting or another, but it would be deeply pointless and probably actually harmful to this thread in the same way as "Mab vs Solaroid" debate got old real fast.
And that one actually was somewhat relevant to the situation, unlike affairs of essence 8-10+ superbeings.
Primordials vs Archangels will be decided by DP once it is relevant. I could go dig for obscure factoids and various late E2.5 books where Primordials or Sol with his deathstar mount do silly shit, try to claim powerlevel primacy of one setting or another, but it would be deeply pointless and probably actually harmful to this thread in the same way as "Mab vs Solaroid" debate got old real fast.
And that one actually was somewhat relevant to the situation, unlike affairs of essence 8-10+ superbeings.
For my part I think the most direct crossover relevant datapoint we have is that the exaltations are still impossible to destroy or lessen. Uriel could hide one, 'upgrade' it with a great curse like feature, or change its themes, but his galaxy destroying biggatons can't unmake it.
Lmao, no. gurren lagan would definitely beat the exaltef host.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Claim that you are a friend of Harry Dresden who had been framed for her husband's death (Reveal some occult connections)
-[X] You have some guesses who was behind it, and could use a help of an FBI investigator
-[X] You have some guesses who was behind it, and could use a help of an FBI investigator
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Perfect unavoidable attack on the mecha pilot. If you disagree we can take this to a verses thread.
I do disagree. Make a verses thread then, i am willing to to Duke it out. Because I know all your arguments is based on is rules which is certainly not something that can simulate other universes.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Didn't Theion use multiple universes to make a crown as a flex move?
That's far beyond what we hear Archangels can do.
Yeah, the fact of the matter is that perfect effects makes comparing biggarons pointless because you can do whatever you want, a primordial is going to use one mote and make it not do anything. Throw that galaxy if you want, Adorjan is going to laugh while asking you *who strikes the wind?* and dodge it.
- Location
- Norway
You're sneaking in an assumption that a galaxy should be counted as one attack, ruleswise. If it's counted as a flurry of several billion thrown stars instead, it mote-taps Adorjan with the first 1000 stars and then she gets hit by several billion more.
More generally, an attacker with access to biggatons can do more than one thing.This is one of the mechanics that makes the Exalted system behave extremely weirdly around Mass Combat in both 2e and 3e. Perfect defenses and a lot of other charms change vastly in power depending on whether the many projectiles being thrown at an Exalt count as "one" attack. Five DBs ganging up on a Solar normally apply a penalty to the Solar's defense, which a Solar charm like Shadow Over Water negates. Five DBs ganging up on a Solar and declaring "Join War!" apply successes to their own attacks, instead.
3e had to write a sidebar stressing that the Mass Combat system is an abstraction for convenience, don't treat its mechanics as describing reality, don't build around it. For example, don't split one Size 5 battlegroup into ten Size 3 battlegroups because ten attacks at +3 are worth more than one attack at +5.
1)Why are you assuming everything was stacked in our favor?
We knew next to nothing about the potential opposition.Still dont. Baby wizard Harry Dresden has done plenty of damage to people who made assumptions about the balance of power.
2)Leinth is an Etruscan name.
In the historical record the Etruscan civilization was running around Italy from at least 900BC to the birth of Christ, and were essentially wiped out or assimilated by Rome before the crucifixion of Christ.
The man is at least a thousand years old, possibly more than two thousand years old.
He's older than the Black Court, older than the current Mab and Titania, older than the White Council. You should actually be fucking hesitant about getting into a fight with someone that old in this universe. They didnt get that way by being slackers.
2)So at 6/12 Essence, you get into a fight with an Old Vampire.
He has a ranged weapon, you dont. He has an ally on the scene, weak as she is, you dont. He may have reinforcements nearby waiting with the getaway vehicle, you have no idea. You have a dying civilian on the scene to save and interrogate. And your distinctive Mercedes is parked out front in full view of neighbors.
And you call this situation stacked in our favor.
Even if I thought a fight was a good idea, I would disagree with that assessment. Strongly.
1)Molly is a three month old E2 baby Exalt that doesnt even have a complete combat suite.
She has no poison defenses, she has no shaping defenses, she has no ranged attacks or perfects or mobility enhancers or overdrive charms or combat time healers or dedicated counterspelling capability.
She is still updating herself about the geopolitical players in this setting and the potential threats.
She's not the meanest motherfucker in the valley yet. Behaving like she is might well prove an expensive and painful mistake.
2)Exalts were designed to act as part of an army against those Primordial horrors, with the full backing of the armies of Heaven and Earth and the help of two Primordials. They didnt win the Primordial War alone.
By contrast, in the Age of Sorrows, Solaroids got ganked back in Creation when they tried to Rambo shit up and bit off more than they could chew; mechanically, five mortals with sledgehammers, or a pack of blood apes, could be a mortal threat.
Vampire elders in ExWoD are literally statted up as major threats.
Respectfully? Its not obfuscation.
Whampires are only one of a broad spectrum of emotion phages in the setting.
Many of them can kill you with repeated, sustained feeding over several days. But its usually not immediately fatal.
This is not to minimize what Whampires are.
But they arent all that unique.
1)No, thats untrue.
That was untrue as far back as Grave Peril. Where Rampires attempt to jump Michael in Bianca's mansion.
When the Nightmare went after Michael's wife.
2)Now you're just twisting my words.
3)Molly is a 17 year old teenager. Of course she doubts her decisions.
Thats normal for the age. Healthy, even.
No it doesnt though? I quote:
The White Court has always known the desires of the powerful and it has always known them, but long before the first far venturing fur trader had glimpsed the flash of the sun in the waters of Lake Michigan, before the first galleon made it across the Atlantic even they had learned not to put themselves too far forward. Powerful men often turn against lovers be they so carefully cultivated to suit them, resentful, suspicious. And so the incubus, the succubus had taken a step back for the most part, becoming purveyors of vice at one remove, a web of brothels and escort services, health spas and massage parlors, designed not to appear to the public at large but to the elite, particularly the political elite, though some of those files also include the military, high finance and, most distastefully, religious reasons. Most of the people being used this way are in some way beholden to their 'benefactors', whether they are in the country illegally or had some other reason to leave their old lives behind. Hooks behind hooks....
Im not saying its good, just that what magic is involved in the operation is not in employee recruitment and retention.
Like I mentioned earlier, Arturo Genosa used to work for a White Court-controlled porn studio(he didnt know about the Whampires).
If compulsion was a part of the business plan , the entire A-plot of Blood Rites would never have even happened; Lara or Papa Raith would have had a five minute convo with him and he'd never have left the fold.
These are either Word of Butcher OOC or direct statements by an angel.
Not interpretations of effects through Dresden's PoV. Especially because Dresden specifically has his Sight shut down the one time he had it active around an angel, for his own safety.
The word was that a bog standard angel could unintentionally collateral either a planet or a star as a side effect if it got into a fight.
And that Uriel could frag galaxies with a thought. Which is in part why he is so sparing with action.
Why do you think perfect effects dont exist in the Dresdenverse, just because they arent called out as such?
Nicodemus is walking around with Judas' noose, an artefact conferring a perfect defense against attempts to kill him(the Flaw is employing the weapon itself) and a perfect attack(the Barabbas Curse) against mortals that can be used once a year.
Not to my recollection.
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- Location
- Germany
The White Court is keeping the language alive though.
It's entirely possible the man has been born after mortal Etruscan culture has been subsumed, by his vampiric parents still remembering the language and culture.
I would agree that he is unusually old, but I think you are a bit too free in guessing his age from the name alone.
Against that I can say that Molly is, despite all those facts being true, still on the level of an Elder Vampire through sheer toughness and huge dicepools.
We have more room for errors than most vampires.
This is due to the fact that we have more health, good soak and our damage is always Aggravated, making combat-speed healing impossible for a vampire without extremly specific abilities.
And I can't stop mentioning that we are entirely immune to the mental disciplines that most White Vamps seem to favor, making it likely they'll waste both fuel and time on trying something that has no chance of working at least once per fight.
I agree that we aren't the biggest fish yet, but when looking at stats and odds I find that we are surprisingly well adjusted for fighting Vamps.
Now true Methulsela are supposed to be major threats, but that is a whole nother level from Elders.
His figures of speech in his talks with Isabella reference extinct animals in numbers unseen since the heyday of the Roman Empire.
As in, the large auroch herds were largely extinct by the middle of the first millenium AD; small numbers lingered, especially in central and east europe as late as around the 14th/15th century as the preserve of nobility, but the big herds had been wiped out many centuries before.
Its like having a human talk about the hazards of a stampede by large buffalo herds when we almost drove them to extinction in the 19th century, or about the behavior of large mammoth herds; it implies the person was alive to see them in numbers.
Then add the Etruscan name. And the colloqial Latin.
And the apparent facility with Jade Court identification, which suggests some experience in China.
And the distinctly non mainstream view of modern human threat.
I have made my threat level assumptioms almost entirely on physical threat assumptions; I havent even really factored in magic and magic pacts.This guy would be old enough to be a Methuselah, but I dont know if/how the QM is modelling vampire power in the setting, so Im just assuming 4s in relevant Physical Disciplines (0.5×Fortitude 7, rounded up)
Few vampires are going to be as old as this guy. Hopefully. Doesnt mean they wont have their own advantages, from equipment to magic to allies; Lord Raith was able to acquire an Investment/bargain that made him functionally immune to Blackstaff-level magic, for example. But most should be more manageable.
Most. Hopefully.
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- Location
- Germany
That's mostly what I'm thinking too.
Except Black Court of course, those bastards are all old as dirt and have survived being hunted and without a Court's protection for a long time. In addition to being inherently faster and stronger than the other vampire-types.
I'd give those the best odds in a direct contest with Molly.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Leinth's name might not be a great indicator of his actual age, though it is pretty suggestive. Isabella's memory of the funeral where she first saw him, however, is much more indicative;
I'm still not convinced he's as dangerous as some of ya'll have implied, but that sure as hell doesn't mean he isn't a credible threat we should be wary of.
Barring misadventure or malice, and perhaps disease but that's not a certainty, Whampire's are basically immortal. Even those that die relatively young by Whampire standards are, more often than not, going to be centuries old. For Leinth to be the great-great uncle of Isabella's great-grand father, that's at least five generations of family removed, and unlike the typical Human generation, for Whampires that's probably 200-300 years or more rather than 20-30 per.
I'm still not convinced he's as dangerous as some of ya'll have implied, but that sure as hell doesn't mean he isn't a credible threat we should be wary of.
This is an assumption. We don't know. There's evidence for such, but it's shaky. He uses some etruscan language, and has an etruscan name, and his accent is hard to place. This means he's several centuries old, and that etruscan traditions are strong in his family. Not that he's several thousands years old.
Moreover, age doesn't (direclty) translate into power.
I am absolutely sure someone gave a quote of this in this thread, can't remember who and searching is hellish on phone.
Might've been @Yog ?
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
That's worth keeping in mind, IMO. I know age is a direct correlation to power in WoD, but that isn't necessarily a case in this setting. Yes, the older a being is the longer they've had to accrue power through various means, but there aren't many in DF that inherently become more powerful simply by getting older, IIRC. Ya'll need to be careful of trying to directly port over WoD Vampire abilities to their DF counterparts. They are not the same thing at all.
For Whampires, AFAIK, they only gain direct power through feeding their Hunger. That means that a gluttonous Whampire who spends their power sparingly could amass a ridiculous amount of strength over centuries and millennia. If that Whampire exhausts themselves fighting a serious threat, they can't just go drain the life force from a few Human snackpacks to top of their Hunger and be back to full strength. They couldn't top off the tank if they drained a hundred Humans. Sure, their skills will be more developed, to a certain extent, and what they can do with their power will probably be more advanced in general, but that only goes so far.
A poorly fed millennia old Whampire can be bested by a well fed Whampire that barely has a couple centuries under their belt.
Also, an elder Whampire could be a light eater and kinda lazy about exercising their powers and learning new skills. In that case, it might not even take a particularly well fed junior to smack them around.
Black Court apparently grow in power from eating people. And any of the surviving Blacks who lived through the last hundred years or so has had significant opportunity to gorge itself on some of the wars of the 20th century.
So if we run into an old Black at night, things could go sideways very fast indeed.
Like I said, manner of speech.
My man be out here referencing herds of aurochs like prehistoric man talking about herds of mammoths, or a modern millenial talking about a Britney Spears concert.
And @Goldfish made a point I missed.
His exact relationship to Isabella was stated(great-grandfather's great great uncle, which is five or six generations removed), and assuming that average Whampire generations are at least the same as that of a wizard(300 years plus), six generations will give you in excess of 1800 years.
Directly? No. Indirectly? Hell yeah.
I mean, dude recognized what he thought was a Jade Court elder on sight, as well as devil summoning from Yomi Wan.
In a setting where knowledge is power, this dude is very well armed.
And I wouldnt dismiss direct power either.
Surviving that long requires enough power to be fuckscary enough to see off a diverse group of threats , through times when violence was a lot more casual than it is now.
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Vote closed.
In ExWoD, oWoD and Exalted proper, One Attack is an abstraction. One attack is a shotgun blast with a dozen pellets, one attack is a bunch of light cuts of a Bruja vamp with a fencing aesthetic, one attack is a bag of bricks hitting your head and so on. This is not a "aha, unclear legally gray area" this is a basic assumption in a system that never attempted to be harshly simulationist. For Exalted in particular, stunt system heavily relies on this being a thing to work well.
Don't want this to be a point of confusion, lest we argue ourselves into thinking that Molly can only swat at the fly once every six seconds or can't talk and walk at the same time or whatever other stupid nonsense. This hurts the game.
While that one is a fun example to draw against people who overawed themselves into thinking that Exalts are invulnerable to everything right out of chargen by default with absolutely no investment or effort - and we really had an abundance of that at various points in time - for the sake of complete clarity, you really needed to have a fantastically shitty combat build for that to be a probable scenario.
Well, or be under impression that your chara never going to get into combat. With how corebooks encouraged specialization, that was not unheard of.
Heroic Mortals or Blood Apes are somewhat less trivial to render harmless, but world-class 4-5 dots Tiger Warriors or jacked-up demon-gorillas aren't exactly your run of the mil silly mortal militiaman.
Various DoTs aren't really very good against Molly for the same reason as being lit on fire isn't very dangerous. One lethal damage per round is a grave threat to a mortal. Not so much for Molly. Especially since she has that innate "Exalts soak poison at reduced difficulty."
Supernatural poisons might be a little bit more dangerous, but IIRC, metal-melting blood-based vamp poisons from Vampire are like, two points of lethal per turn. That's not really great.
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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files) Crossover - Fantasy
There were great big monsters in the Wyld, not just Raksha but Unshaped, and above the Unshaped in the ecosystem are Hannya, weird, fucked up Unshaped that predate on and make a niche of predating on normal Unshaped in ways that arent normal. And the Primordials were still unquestionably above...
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