Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Valkhir]

In this Woj, Jim clearly states that being forgotten wouldn´t change the almighty whatsover, just mortal understanding of him would change.
Small g gods like the greek pantheon or Odin lose their powers with less people believing them, but big G "almighty" dieties just flat out do not have that limitation.

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Thats not what the quote says.

It says what changes arent the beingS, but our understanding.

First, it speaks in plural. So its most likely about the gods or beings. Most likely Mantle stuff.

Its not saying stuff about White God.

And if we take it another way about perspective and maybe Mantles, it could echo back to WoD / ExWoD.

Where the christian God is also the August Personage of Jade, ths Jade Emperor. This would make it possible that the highest level being is always the same in different "perspectives" or manifestations or Mantles

Edit: Which actually fits, as with Kringle / Odin / Santa

 

[Artemis1992]

@DragonParadox
Do you know Earthscorpion`s Oramus Charmset?

Could any remnants of those charms still exist in these diminished times, similar to the reflections of the major reclamation-Yozi echoed in the Hells that shaped our Charms?

 

[AllenWalker]

Thats not what the quote says.

It says what changes arent the beingS, but our understanding.

First, it speaks in plural. So its most likely about the gods or beings. Most likely Mantle stuff.

Its not saying stuff about White God.

And if we take it another way about perspective and maybe Mantles, it could echo back to WoD / ExWoD.

Where the christian God is also the August Personage of Jade, ths Jade Emperor. This would make it possible that the highest level being is always the same in different "perspectives" or manifestations or Mantles.

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the quote is a direct answer about questions of the almighty, i.e did human belief change who the almighty is.

the answer is no, because human belief or forgettfullness can not change almighty beings just our understanding of them. In the dresden files there exist multiple beings that might count as almighty, the WG being one of them, aka big G Gods. We don´t know who everyone counts as a Big G God, beyond God, the outsider Gods and possibly lucifer based on the whole heaven and hell cold war.

It does allow us to limit beings who we know were changed themselves like Odin and the greek gods, who have lost most of their power by few people believing in them anymore. That´s a fact in story, hence these small g gods can not be the beings the quote is above, which makes it easy to say that at least the nordic pantheon you mentioned absolutely not was involved in creating the world, since back then there was no faith to sustain them.

It could be that some of the other dieties you mentioned are Big G Gods, but i doubt it.

 

[Valkhir]

@DragonParadox
Do you know Earthscorpion`s Oramus Charmset?

Could any remnants of those charms still exist in these diminished times, similar to the reflections of the major reclamation-Yozi echoed in the Hells that shaped our Charms?

Click to shrink...

I actually like a different one for Oramus.

Oramus (Fanmade Charmset)

“All the world’s a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages.” -William Shakespeare This set of Charms for the Yozi Oramus has not, as far as I am aware, a single author, hence ...

docs.google.com

Edit:

It could be that some of the other dieties you mentioned are Big G Gods, but i doubt it.

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Three Pure Ones and Amenominakanushi would definitely count if any did.

Three "beings" who are born directly of the Tao and represent it (which cannot be described but "supercedes" Taiji and Wuji in general metaphysical primacy.)

And amenominakanushi is a hitorigami or "god who came into being alone" similar to self-creation and is the first god of that myth. One of the "three gods of creation" and his name literally translates as "Heavenly Ancestral God of the Originating Heart of the Universe".

 

[AllenWalker]

Three Pure Ones and Amenominakanushi would definitely count if any did.

Three "beings" who are born directly of the Tao and represent it (which cannot be described but "supercedes" Taiji and Wuji in general metaphysical primacy.)

And amenominakanushi is a hitorigami or "god who came into being alone" similar to self-creation and is the first god of that myth. One of the "three gods of creation" and his name literally translates as "Heavenly Ancestral God of the Originating Heart of the Universe".

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very possible. We haven´t seen them in story in dresden files yet and we know that more than one big G God exists.

I just protested the notion about the norse pantheon which we know are small g gods

 

[Valkhir]

very possible. We haven´t seen them in story in dresden files yet and we know that more than one big G God exists.

I just protested the notion about the norse pantheon which we know are small g gods

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I just randomly threw in some pantheon names. Vedic because Brahman if it exists is 100% in the same category.

But actually I meant more Ginnungagap and the primal cow and Ymir and creating the universe. Not Odin.

Also, I still don't read the quote that way.

It is asked if beings can lose or gain power due to timefuckery or over time

The answer is that beingS as in plural do not change.

 

[AmeliaNyoom]

Well you are underage so you cannot legally gamble even assuming you would find a legal gambling establishment in Chicago so to Gentleman Johnny's establishments you go if you want that. Also you need enough money for a buy in. Molly does not know how much that is because the workings of illegal casinos were not part of her education.

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It should also be noted that while we have a chance to win it will always be in the house's favour aka the house edge

 

[AllenWalker]

I just randomly threw in some pantheon names. Vedic because Brahman if it exists is 100% in the same category.

But actually I meant more Ginnungagap and the primal cow and Ymir and creating the universe. Not Odin.

Also, I still don't read the quote that way.

It is asked if beings can lose or gain power due to timefuckery or over time

The answer is that beingS as in plural do not change.

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but we know that Odin changed. It is explicitly stated and shown over and over in Dresden files up to and including Ethinu mocking him over he weak he as become. Not to mention that he was a non angelic supernatural being already shown in dresden files hence he is lesser than an angel mook footsoldier.

Love the Dresden files so much so really looking forward to the next book release this year. Just wanted to ask if we'll ever see the angels that guard Michael in action! I love the hints you drop that they're insanely strong!
(Tangent about Jim's cat hitting his keyboard.)
But MY answer was going to be to say that angelic powers simply exist on an order of magnitude beyond that of anything happening on a level a mortal could understand. I mean, who actually has more power in a production: the lead character, or the lowly stage hand who is running his lights and audio. That person playing the character might get the limelight, but the dude in all black is running the show.
A lowly footsoldier angel is a power of an order of magnitude greater than all the local-scale supernatural beings we've seen in the Dresden Files put together. I mean, it wouldn't be a fight. The angel wins, hands down.

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Jim is very direct that all supernatural beings that ever appeared in the dresden files put together would be bolostomped by single angle mook.

Odin has appeared in dresden files, hence he is far far lesser than even the weakest of the White Gods angelic servants.

not to mention that trying to put someone we have seen fight in battleground on the level of even approaching the White God or even just the angels is bizarre.

That's actually interesting because we've talked about that on the podcast several times. I think we all agreed on that even if there's a lot of realities there's one Uriel above all realities, is that how you see it?

Sort of. Yeah I mean Uriel's an archangel so he's like-he's kinda omnipresent in the universe in many ways. He's one of God's deputies he kind of has enormous amounts of power, all the archangels do. But yeah that would be the case, is that when you get to the really high levels of power, beings like Uriel are the same everywhere they go. So poor Uriel has to deal with millions and millions of Harry Dresdens because they're always causing problems and they're always making choices and they're always creating new branches for the universe so poor Uriel just has to deal with so many copies of this guy.

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Are Mab and Titania equal to the Archangels in terms of raw power? What about the Mothers?

Nowhere close. Like, /nowhere/ close. Angels are so far beyond a being like Mab that there's just no comparison to be made. Mab might be able to, if she really worked at it, enchant the world into an ice age. But an angel could destroy the SUN.
(blabla but Mab is less limited in action.)

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Your fallen angel characters…I was just wondering if you have ever really given any thought to developing the whole idea of angels …

I have a lot of fallen angel characters and have I ever given thought to developing the whole angel notion a bit more. Yeah, but they're kinda limited in terms of what they can do. You know, they can respond to…they can respond if the bad guys cheat but mostly they just kinda stand there and look menacing and the Fallen just don't mess with them unless someone's got an actual plan going on. You know, angels slugging it out with one another could potentially, you know, blow up planets. That's the kind of level of power that angels are; they're just off the scale of like anything that Dresden can do. But they're sort of more observers than anything and occasionally, you know, they'll be the one who says, "Hey, could you stand outside the door until my child grows up and is safe?" "Yeah, I can do that." Yeah, it's not a big deal for one of them.

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[Ogoobu]

[X] Yes, Michael takes up his task of mentoring you among his other formal duties with the knights

 

[Artemis1992]

I actually like a different one for Oramus.

Oramus (Fanmade Charmset)

“All the world’s a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages.” -William Shakespeare This set of Charms for the Yozi Oramus has not, as far as I am aware, a single author, hence ...

docs.google.com

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Beautiful in my Way is one dangerous start into the Charmset.
Unintentional unnatural mental influence on everyone around you is heavy for a school-going girl.

I do like the general Acting theme. The Dragon pretends to be something comprehensible to interact with Creation.
Also nice is the horrible beauty and madness when he puts less effort into acting.
And then we get into the full paradox-warfare.

 

[DragonParadox]

@DragonParadox
Do you know Earthscorpion`s Oramus Charmset?

Could any remnants of those charms still exist in these diminished times, similar to the reflections of the major reclamation-Yozi echoed in the Hells that shaped our Charms?

Click to shrink...

Never read this, no. They look pretty cool, but as for it they exist... well Molly does not know about any such thing no.

 

[Valkhir]

but we know that Odin changed. It is explicitly stated and shown over and over in Dresden files up to and including Ethinu mocking him over he weak he as become. Not to mention that he was a non angelic supernatural being already shown in dresden files hence he is lesser than an angel mook footsoldier.

Jim is very direct that all supernatural beings that ever appeared in the dresden files put together would be bolostomped by single angle mook.

Odin has appeared in dresden files, hence he is far far lesser than even the weakest of the White Gods angelic servants.

not to mention that trying to put someone we have seen fight in battleground on the level of even approaching the White God or even just the angels is bizarre.

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Yeah those quotes clearly place them in another bracket.

The Uriel one in particular, others dont adress mechanics only power.

Whether all angels are like that are irrelevant, even if its only archangels its enough.

Well, we'll just have to see the local metaphysics. And what other Gods may be around.

Edit: Though Mab being barely able to ritual a planetwide iceage REALLY places Exalts as local top dogs.

Remember Operation Wyldhand and Cauldronists, and that Creation is much bigger than planet Earth.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

It should also be noted that while we have a chance to win it will always be in the house's favour aka the house edge

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Talking about Poker games against other players not the house. Also apparently the city of Chicago has a number of floating casinos.

 

[DragonParadox]

Yeah those quotes clearly place them in another bracket.

The Uriel one in particular, others dont adress mechanics only power.

Whether all angels are like that are irrelevant, even if its only archangels its enough.

Well, we'll just have to see the local metaphysics. And what other Gods may be around.

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I will say this much about the Exalted side of things the Primordials are not creations, they emerged from the Chaos of their own will and of them the most skilled in craft was Autochthon whose greatest creation was Exaltation which no power may break, that is why they were bound.

 

[Valkhir]

Beautiful in my Way is one dangerous start into the Charmset.
Unintentional unnatural mental influence on everyone around you is heavy for a school-going girl.

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Well, one is that I wouldnt mind it.

But also that ExWod doesnt have linear charmtrees. So we could just buy around it, like how Kakuri isnt gated behind Witness to Darkness Ebon was.

If these existed.

 

[AllenWalker]

The Uriel one in particular, others dont adress mechanics only power.

Whether all angels are like that are irrelevant, even if its only archangels its enough.

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yeah, the archangels get especially ridicolous all things considered.

Here is another tasty bit on Uriel

A being like Uriel doesn't really do battle in the sense of contested violence. He just sort of thinks about annihilating galaxies and it happens. His battles are much more complicated than that, and involve things like choosing seven words very carefully, and handing off a few sparks of energy to the right person in the right place at the right time.

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I also know there is a quote about Uriel shatteering reality with the horryfingly absurd size of his true body, but i can´t find it.

And to be even more distressing, the walkers, deputies to the outsider Gods are explicitly equal to the archangels, if they were not restricted by acting within the confines of the multiverse and not outside of it.

That´s why I´m putting the Outsider Gods on the same level as YHWH and why my personal pet theory is that YHWH is an outsider God who created the world purely to fuck with his collegues

 

[Valkhir]

yeah, the archangels get especially ridicolous all things considered.

Here is another tasty bit on Uriel


I also know there is a quote about Uriel shatteering reality with the horryfingly absurd size of his true body, but i can´t find it.

And to be even more distressing, the walkers, deputies to the outsider Gods are explicitly equal to the archangels, if they were not restricted by acting within the confines of the multiverse and not outside of it.

That´s why I´m putting the Outsider Gods on the same level as YHWH and why my personal pet theory is that YHWH is an outsider God who created the world purely to fuck with his collegues

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Okay now I want to see what happens when we Murder is Meat / spirit killer a Walker.

 

[AllenWalker]

Okay now I want to see what happens when we Murder is Meat / spirit killer a Walker.

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probably depends on where exactly.

The deeper within creation/the dresden files multiverse, the weaker a walker gets.

 

[Artemis1992]

Okay now I want to see what happens when we Murder is Meat / spirit killer a Walker.

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The Walkers are very immortal and we don't have really straight-up explicit perma-killing Charms.

At best we could send its flayed remnants to hell, but that doesn't seem like a permanent solution.

We could really use an Abyssal ally.

 

[Valkhir]

The Walkers are very immortal and we don't have really straight-up explicit perma-killing Charms.

At best we could send its flayed remnants to hell, but that doesn't seem like a permanent solution.

We could really use an Abyssal ally.

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Didn't DP rule Murder is Meat as a potential real spirit-killer due its fluff of flaying their Essence to nothing and Infernals not getting any others, despite doing so in 2e?

 

[Artemis1992]

Didn't DP rule Murder is Meat as a potential real spirit-killer due its fluff of flaying their Essence to nothing and Infernals not getting any others, despite doing so in 2e?

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Yeah, but with something as extremly immortal as a Walker I would prefer a more definite Charm.

Maybe a Lanka-adjusted version of this one would be nice to have:

RADIANT FURY DISSOLUTION

Cost: —
Mins: Essence 3
Type: Permanent
Keywords: Obvious, Shaping
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Green Sun Nimbus Flare


By the authority of the deposed King of the Primordials, the Infernal commands the universe itself to sunder a slain enemy into component motes. This Charm permanently improves Green Sun Nimbus Flare. Whenever a flare's damage is enough to kill a non-Yozi target, the surge of Essence spreads out from the wound like a bonfire doused with oil, growing exponentially brighter and hotter until nothing remains of the victim but glittering ash, a rising cloud of smoke in the shape of a fungal bloom and the victim's silhouette burned into the ground. Spirits can't reform from this demise, while Infernals with Essence 7+ can actually unravel the souls of beings with perfect reincarnation who normally resist permanent destruction, such as Dragon Kings and Jadeborn. However, not even Malfeas can sunder a Celestial Exaltation or permanently slay beings with Yozi-level immortality, such as Deathlords.
Anyone who sleeps within 100 yards of a victim's shadow experiences horrific visions of the victim that impose a one die penalty on rolls to regain Willpower upon waking. This radius contracts by one yard per century that passes until the being's Essence has been scattered to the reaches of eternity.
That Malfeas only sentences hated enemies to 10,000 years of suffering shows the upper limits of his magnanimity.

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But even that can't kill the extremly immortal things out there.

 

[Valkhir]

Yeah, but with something as extremly immortal as a Walker I would prefer a more definite Charm.

Maybe a Lanka-adjusted version of this one would be nice to have:

But even that can't kill the extremly immortal things out there.

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Why do all these spirit-killers not kill Yozi-level immortality when even Lunars do...pretty bad design. And dont even get motes like Ghost Eating Technique.

Spirit Maiming Essence Attack

Cost: 3m Mins: Perception 5, Essence 4 Type: Reflexive (Step 8) Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious Duration: Instant Prerequisite Charms: Devil-Restraining Grip, God-Cutting Essence The Stewards have the ability to destroy gods and demons. The character invokes this Charm when he inflicts damage upon a spirit. He adds (Essence) to his post-soak damage, and a spirit "killed" by this attack is destroyed permanently.

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They didn't even give it to Infernals who are Solaroids.

 

[Artemis1992]

Why do all these spirit-killers not kill Yozi-level immortality when even Lunars do...pretty bad design. And dont even get motes like Ghost Eating Technique.

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It makes sense.

The Yozi fundamentally can't and don't want to kill things on their own level of immortality.
They never design Creation to handle such deaths, which is where the whole Neverborn issue comes from.

So there are obviously no Charms to do so in the Yozi's Charmsets. If an Infernal wants one, he has to create a Heretical Charm.

 

[UberJJK]

Maybe a Lanka-adjusted version of this one would be nice to have:

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Except of course that only really reaches true kill levels at E7 which is centuries away for us.

Why do all these spirit-killers not kill Yozi-level immortality when even Lunars do...pretty bad design. And dont even get motes like Ghost Eating Technique.


They didn't even give it to Infernals who are Solaroids.

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Because the Infernals are just different. Unlike every other Exalt Infernals don't actually have their own charm sets. They are learning the exact same charms that the Yozis know. Only the impossibility of the Exaltations allowed for killing of Primordials; the Primordials couldn't kill one another AFAIK so why would the Yozi (which are diminished compared to the Primordials) be capable of doing so?

Any such charm would have to be an original created by a Green Sun Prince and there aren't really many/any of those, outside some Heretical charms, because part of the point is that Green Sun Princes are new to the block in the time the books are written.

 

[Modus_Tollens]

[X] Yes, Micheal takes up his task of mentoring you among his other formal duties with the knights

Its not unreasonable and that would be a very large can of worms to open. We'll learn of God in time, in measures he and his can agree to, even if we don't know everything. We are not inclined to faith but we are capable of it and the White God is no enemy of ours.