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General Exalted Thread

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Walker of the Yellow Path said:
But my confusion is why a person would roll Join Battle? Like, doesn't that mean that everyone knows that combat is about to happen or something?
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Join Battle is kind of a combination of "who blinks first" and "how fast can you draw". In ambush situations, it can become an approximation of whether or not the ambushed notices the ambusher. If the ambushed character wins JB, they might get that split second to react.
 
If the target notices the ambusher, it's just as surprise attack (-2 to defense), not an ambush.
To be an ambush, the attacker and the attack need to be completely unnoticed until the attack hits.

However, the attacker rolling "join battle" for the purpose of determining their own Initiative doesn't alert the target at all. It's just a game mechanics thing, the target doesn't learn that "join battle" was rolled.


Also, Ambushes can be really deadly in Exalted. Just one good ambush can take off 4-5 health levels easily, and a charm-enhanced ambush with a bit of luck can take off 7+ and kill the target. Since Dodge/Parry-enhancing charms usually don't do anything against ambushes (your defense is 0 and can't be raised.
The best way to counter Ambushes, other than detecting the ambush?
Ox-Body Technique will make sure you don't die, Durability of Oak Meditation will reduce the damage by 2, Seven Shadow Evasion just evades the attack entirely and Heavenly Guardian Defense or Vaporous Division can reduce the damage by a lot.
 
So, I understand 3E perfects take something like twenty motes now. Is that right, and would you say it's still worth perfecting an Ambush?
 
beowolf said:
So, I understand 3E perfects take something like twenty motes now. Is that right, and would you say it's still worth perfecting an Ambush?
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...what? No. That's not how they work. Perfects aren't really true perfects anymore, is the thing. Heavenly Guardian lets you burn your initiative to reduce a decisive, and costs like 4m. Seven Shadow Evasion is a true Perfect Dodge, and you can use it for 4m,1wp once per scene. Adamant Skin costs 8m and lets you use your full soak and hardness versus a Decisive Attack. None of them cost 20m. And it really depends on the attack for whether its worth using. If the attack is likely to badly hurt or kill you, and you can negate it...yes, you probably should. Wound penalties suck.

All the perfects have an alternate use and similiar cost to against major things that aren't strictly combat attacks, like a volcanic eruption or a burning curse from a Yozi, which let you survive the scene by using the Charm.
 
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There are almost no perfects left in Ex3. But there is Seven Shadow Evasion, which costs 4m 1wp. Only caveat is, it's only once/scene unless you dodge 3 decisive attacks to reset it.

So probably, unless you think there'll be a worse attack later that fight.
 
beowolf said:
So, I understand 3E perfects take something like twenty motes now. Is that right, and would you say it's still worth perfecting an Ambush?
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That's not remotely true.
The three old perfects now work like this:
Seven Shadow Evasion costs 4m, 1wp and perfectly dodges any one attack, but can only be used once per scene unless you dodge three decisive attacks from dangerous opponents by using Reed in the Wind.
Heavenly Guardian Defense costs 4m, but doesn't negate the attack by default. Rather, it removes damage on a decisive attack at a cost of 1i per negated success.
Adamant Skin Technique costs 8m, and allows you to apply your full soak to decisive attacks (normally, no soak applies there at all), which makes it very hard to injure you (Stamina 5 and Heavy Artifact Armor would give 19 soak).

Note that all three of those have a weakness.
Seven Shadow Evasion can only be used once, that reset is rather hard, especially against a powerful single opponent.
Heavenly Guardian Defense depletes your Initiative, so you might not have enough to completely negate an attack.
Adamant Skin Technique is expensive, but a really high-damage decisive attack can also power through it.
So they're not really "perfect" anymore, except for SSE, and that one can only be used once.

Note that there also charms that interact and enhance those "perfects", which also don't cost any motes or willpower.
Refinement of Flowing Shadows gives you one point of Initiative each turn after using SSE, until you get hit by an attack or enter concealment/disengage to extreme range.
Protection of Celestial Bliss notes the 1's and 2's whenever you use HGD, and gives you 1 point per that you can spend instead of Initiative for HGD. You can also double the cost of one HGD to double those points for it.
Aegis of Invincible Might increases Hardness to 20 (!) and soak by (Stamina + Resistance, so likely 10) after AST is used. You have to pay 8+ motes on offensive charms or unleash a decisive attack each round to maintain it, but it turns you into a pretty hard to stop juggernaut.
All of these are Essence 5 charms, so you better have the relevant ability as a Supernal.
 
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beowolf said:
So, I understand 3E perfects take something like twenty motes now. Is that right, and would you say it's still worth perfecting an Ambush?
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Fenrir555 said:
...what? No.
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Serafina said:
That's not remotely true.
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To add to what Fenrir555 and Serafina said, there are some times in which the new "Perfects" are actually better than the old ones: should a source of damage do so much damage to be effectively uncountable(A manse exploding all around you, a mountain collapsing as its volcano explodes, a titanic tsunami threatening to sweep the coast away), then the defence will temporanely upgrade itself to make you survive unschated the event. (Except for the Resistance one, which temporanely gives you a penality because you are dazed by the impact)

Edit: i hand't noticed that Fenrir555 essentialy said what i said. Maybe because it was added succesively with an edit. Oh well, at least i warned about the relative unrealiability of the resistence "perfect".
 
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greensun said:
Lunars are an interesting splat that is open to a wide variety of build types and have flavourful impact on the setting :p
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Warning: you are trying to force an activation of Merkat Steal the Spotlight Prana.

Dogstar Ruminations on your current location may be activated instead: do you want to proceed?

Y/N
 
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Giygas said:
Warning: you are trying to force an activation of Merkat Steal the Spotlight Prana.

Dogstar Ruminations one your current location may be activated instead: do you want to proceed?

Y/N
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?
grommile said:
The splat is open.

Shame about the implementation.
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Yeah, there was a lot of potential for the Lunars, but I think it was really a combination of poor fluff and mechanics that shot them in the foot; There were about 300 Celestial Exalted broadly allied together and they achieved very little, which was an area that was vastly improved upon in 3E, they've got an entire continent contest against the Realm and on the whole they're more active.

On the mechanics side of things they're powers often felt like Solar charms, but not as good.
 
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greensun said:
?
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Merkat Steal the Spotlight Prana is a in-joke on some exalted forums about every discussion devolving in a Lunar one.

Dogstar Rumination is the alternative name of God-King's Shrike, a charm that at minimum destroys a city, and it is available instantly full powered(Which can make a freaking region shattering meteor) at essence 1 for everyone taking Lore supernal.

I frequently joke that Dogstar Rumination has been stolen from the Lunar charmset because, come on, Dogstar Ruminations??? Also the whole "I destroy civilization!!!" use of the charm
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
It mentions a star. STEALING FROM THE SIDEREALS, I TELL YOU!
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Bursting Eagerness Soul said:
This is clearly what caused the feud between Lunars and Sidereals. They each think that the Solars stole their charm and they want it back.
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Sigh. This is what happens when people who don't get the joke try to jump on board.

Sidereals have never ever had a problem of "This Charm is just a Solar Charm, but weaker and the name refers to animals".

Lunars? Oh boy, where to start? Oh yes, 2e Lunars Charmset. They got called 'Silver Solars' for a reason, and that was probably the most major factor, the fact that people thought you could make a Lunar Charm by taking a Solar Charm and giving it an animal themed name.

(This led to jokes at the time like "Graceful Crane Technique is a Lunar Charm stolen by the Solars!")
 
Walker of the Yellow Path said:
But my confusion is why a person would roll Join Battle? Like, doesn't that mean that everyone knows that combat is about to happen or something?
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beowolf said:
I haven't read 3e, but my understanding is that only the ambusher(s) rolls JB, because you roll it when you know battle is starting, and they do it as part of the same ambush action that includes the attack.
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Join Battle happens reflexively, so someone needn't necessarily be aware that a fight is happening in order for them to roll it. Just like if your Storyteller asks you for a Perception + Awareness roll, your character won't necessarily know that the roll happened.

Bursting Eagerness Soul said:
Join Battle is kind of a combination of "who blinks first" and "how fast can you draw". In ambush situations, it can become an approximation of whether or not the ambushed notices the ambusher. If the ambushed character wins JB, they might get that split second to react.
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Serafina said:
If the target notices the ambusher, it's just as surprise attack (-2 to defense), not an ambush.
To be an ambush, the attacker and the attack need to be completely unnoticed until the attack hits.
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To add to this, technically speaking the target doesn't need to 'notice' you to foil the Ambush, they just need to be aware they're in a fight at all. The relevant part from the Stealth section says:

Article:
Assuming that a character has successfully concealed himself, he may then attempt to make an unexpected attack. Unexpected attacks are either an ambush or a surprise attack.

An ambush is defined as an attack against a target completely unaware of the attacker's presence—generally only possible during the first round of a fight, against a target with a lower Initiative value than the attacker


So, you need to be concealed and beat their Join Battle roll in order to get the Ambush. If you get the stealth, but lose JB, you get a normal Surprise Attack.

Chloe Sullivan said:
Dawn's get a free reset, do they not?
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Not a free reset. It costs 10m I think? But yeah, once per day, pop that and all your combat and movement charms get reset. The power itself gets refreshed at dawn (natch).
 
greensun said:
which was an area that was vastly improved upon in 3E, they've got an entire continent contest against the Realm and on the whole they're more active.
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I wasn't a huge fan of the way that Lunars were treated in the 3E core, but the reasons why are a bit complex.

There was this really annoying "each and every Lunar that ever does anything is ultimately doing it for the downfall of the Realm. A Lunar gives technology to some primitives and tries to build a kingdom? It's so that the kingdom will attack the Realm, while the Lunar retreats and goes off to found another kingdom!" thing going on.

Also, and this is kind of a weird objection, but a world where every Lunar is apparently trying to destroy the Realm (3E) looks far too similar to the world where Lunars are mostly off building their own weird nations trying to figure out how the perfect society works (2E). If 3E wasn't so clearly a reaction to 2E I would have a lot less of a problem with it, but if the game is trying to hype up Lunars as some big scary threat I want to see actual victories, not just introducing an entirely new area that... they still haven't actually won control of.
 
The Caul was a lot more interesting to me when it was teased as a place where the Lunars actually controlled, it had its own mysterious version of Fate and it was portrayed as some kind of quintessentially Lunar realm, set apart from all other groups.

Right now it's more like an eternal DotA match.
 
Imrix said:
The Caul was a lot more interesting to me when it was teased as a place where the Lunars actually controlled, it had its own mysterious version of Fate and it was portrayed as some kind of quintessentially Lunar realm, set apart from all other groups.

Right now it's more like an eternal DotA match.
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Agreed.

I'm honestly not sure what the point of putting Realm Dragonblooded there was myself..

Admittedly I'd likely have enjoyed it more if it was a group of Vaguely Lunar aligned Outcasts who crashed in the sweet shapeshifitng pad to hide from their creditors.
 
The other problem with the Caul is fact that it attempts to answer the perennial question of "what have Lunars been doing all this time" with "this thing. This one, isolated, singular thing."

A thing which, were it not there at all, would leave Lunars in Exactly the same position they were before, or even less so, given the revised backstory locks out any Lunar influence on the First Age under the premise of "Solars say No."
 
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