Mountain Folk mostly need a mechanical overhaul.
It seems desirable to keep them basically "player character shaped" but their scene-length virtue based dice adders never really worked and I'm not convinced that attributes and abilities exceeding 5 (especially as an alternative to dice adders) doesn't appear to have been a good idea since 1st edition.

No, on the contrary, the original sin for Mountain Folk and Dragon Kings was that they were made to be player characters, rather than useful and interesting sources of NPCs for STs running games. They shouldn't be built to be PCs, because that makes them less useful and convenient for nearly all cases where they're used in actual games, and if you provide ways to build useful NPCs for games for them, then the tiny minority of people who ever played them will have a framework they can houserule things if they really want to.

Same goes for the Raksha, who are basically only ever played as NPCs, but ended up with a complicated, intricate, high depth charmset which is directly an agony for STs to use.
 
Exigents are basically just godblooded but with without being saddled with the spirit charmset and the word "Exalted" slapped on.
No. No they are not, they're much more than a godblooded in every sense, they're more important in the setting's lore, they're more narratively versatile, they're more easily justified as powerful. They're definitely not "just god blooded."
 
Exigents are basically just godblooded but with without being saddled with the spirit charmset and the word "Exalted" slapped on.
This is basically a take that can only be sustained if you know basically nothing about Exigents, their execution, and their place in the setting beyond the elevator pitch, but are choosing to voice a very strongly worded take anyway.

God-blooded still exist in 3e, in roughly the same narrative role they've always been in. They are not treated as though they're a quasi player splat, but I feel like they have a pretty significant place in the setting? The new setting content has added more locations with significant support for them, not less. 3e also assumes you can be both a spirit-blood and Exalted at the same time without arbitrarily losing all of your spirit-blooded powers, although I feel like that merit is a bit painfully over-priced.

Exigents are Exalts. They are mechanically designed as Exalts, they are presented as Exalts, they have the role in the setting that Exalts have. They don't really fulfill the specific things that spirit-blooded do, in practice -- they tend to come from a very different process, and one that costs the god who is Exalting them dramatically more than just having a god-blooded child.
 
Is it possible these things were not played very often because while their mechanics were player facing they were not especially good or interesting mechanically?

Exigents are basically just godblooded but with without being saddled with the spirit charmset and the word "Exalted" slapped on.
There were varied and significant problems with playing Jadeborn in 2e. All-in-all, they just simply had issues, and mechanics were only one facet of that. The Jadeborn fight the Darkbroods! This is a major part of their history, identity, and ongoing culture. What are the Darkbrood types? What are they like? Have fun trying to tease it out!

They couldn't use sorcery (technically), they weren't great with artifacts apart from making some that your Exalt PCs might use, they couldn't learn supernatural martial arts (again slightly technically). Their Charms weren't great.

So their pitch is missing an important central pillar, they aren't mechanically interesting, they're harder to wrap your mind around because of the ways in which they're weird, and their intended role is something like "you can recruit them to do something cool for you because you're playing the Solar". I'm not saying one can't do something interesting with player-facing Jadeborn, but it would have to be built out of whole cloth, essentially.

They don't really strike me as compelling character options to play as. Alchemicals hit some similar notes to what we can use Jadeborn for in a lot of ways but just... better. Bottle setting in tight and dark tunnels, cooperative champions, etc.

And for Exigents, that 'just' is doing a lot of heavy lifting given the rest of the sentence. If it were accurate, that's a massive change already that the 'just' blows past, but it's not accurate. God-blooded still exist, but typically exist in the shadow of their divine parents—even running away or defiance is still in their shadow in some way. An Exigent is a champion who rises above and beyond their patron. They have to, or else there wouldn't be any point in naming an Exigent. Although god-blooded are more puissant than a normal mortal, this sentence is a lot like saying 'Solars are basically just mortals but with some Charms like spirits have and the word "Exalted" slapped on.'
 
I unconditionally concede the point about jadeborn, exigents, and anything else anyone finds objectionable. I am not convinced, but I have neither the skill nor knowledge to argue and will not further pollute the thread with my ignorant, poorly considered assertions.
 
I unconditionally concede the point about jadeborn, exigents, and anything else anyone finds objectionable. I am not convinced, but I have neither the skill nor knowledge to argue and will not further pollute the thread with my ignorant, poorly considered assertions.
Please just read the Exigents book if you haven't.
 
I wanna see really weird mountain folk. Not dwarves, not rock people, not robots. Some out there, as of yet unheard of game changing third thing that redefines their aesthetic.
 
I wanna see really weird mountain folk. Not dwarves, not rock people, not robots. Some out there, as of yet unheard of game changing third thing that redefines their aesthetic.
How about undead soul amalgamations who absorb the soul of a new host into there collective every few centuries or so? Basically mountain shamans playing host to all their ancestors squeezed into a sort of soul ball?
 
I think someone made a less human version of them back in… checks Jesus, 2016, wow. Might work for these purposes and if it doesn't then maybe you can mine ideas off it

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

General Exalted Thread

How did I put it before? Oh yes.
 
So, something I learned a while back about ant/bee/eusocial insect genetics is that the workers are genetically almost identical to the queen. Like essentially sterile clones.

(I'm not sure I understood correctly but this misunderstanding gave me the idea so bear with me)

You take that concept of producing essentially clones of yourself, and mix it with the location-people blend Anaja suggested. You have a place that is also a person, and that produces mountain folk that are all essentially clones. A Mountain Folk finds a place to lay down, buries itself into a tunnel or cave or wherever, and grows into... let's call it a factory because I don't have a better idea and am sleepy. The factory then produces Mountain Folk nearly identical to the original, and they fulfill certain roles. Mountain Folk produced by a factory are loyal to it and to its continued function, and will act in its defense and for its well being like ants defending their hive.

"But Half, how would you get different kinds of mountain folk?!"

Simple: Autocthon created multiple types of Mountain Folk. Someone mentioned different castes earlier, play into that a bit.

You get two factories to exchange their Folk, and when a new mountain folk type arrives, it is integrated into the factory, and it produces the new kind, and occasionally mixes the kinds together to produce a new one. The two Folk that are in the factory begin to merge, sharing a consciousness. (ETA: Come to think of it the different folk could act like districts within a city, producing their own kind of folk but also their own sort of architecture... you could have one district of purple crystalline humanoids and another of elfin glass artisans, and between you might have a mix of the two a la a color gradient? I need to sleep...)

If this idea sounds similar to a metropolis that's because it's meant to echo it, at least a little bit. It's like an early protoype.

On its own this isn't enough and I know that. But I think it's a start.
 
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No, on the contrary, the original sin for Mountain Folk and Dragon Kings was that they were made to be player characters, rather than useful and interesting sources of NPCs for STs running games. They shouldn't be built to be PCs, because that makes them less useful and convenient for nearly all cases where they're used in actual games, and if you provide ways to build useful NPCs for games for them, then the tiny minority of people who ever played them will have a framework they can houserule things if they really want to.
I'm not sure if we agree or disagree here.
When I say "player character shaped", I'd point to the format used for Yennin in Across the Eight Directions as a model for what I'd want to see.
They get a little over a page of rules that are intended to be a framework to build custom NPCs, but they're basically playable in a way I couldn't say for the Gigantes of Dis, ghosts or Cloud People.
 
So, not sure where to really ask this, but how does one work with Charms that deal with Virtues under Earthscorpion's Principle system? Like, I think he says that Virtue could just be principles, and that Principles work like Virtues, but what happens when you buy Cosmic Perfection of Virtue or a charm that uses your temperance rating as part of its dice pool? Do those just not exist, then, or do they use a principle - and if so, how? There's a mention elsewhere - the chargen part IIRC - of using virtues on top of the rest of the hack, but I'm unsure how it's supposed to work.

I am confident this was probably detailed elsewhere, but I have not been able to find it. I made a good effort attempt to do so, for what it's worth, before asking.
 
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Fair Folk have a different issue from Mountain Folk and Dragon Kings. Fair Folk were meant ot be this myriad of different beings from the infinite chaos of the Wyld living on narratives that are alien and dangerous. This is kind of just hard to do with something that also needs to facilitate (perceived) balanced PC creation. And also in a game where that PC creation can't overwhelm Exalted characters in design. This flattened them out quite a bit and was bad. I kind of agree that 1e would have have done them better as an NPC book ala Games of Divinity instead of what we got.

Jadeborn and Dragon Kings are differently in that they're most mortal species who have enough human familiarity to be something folks might want to play. And that they are a bit less "Toolkit to do everything" but "Toolkit to be this kind of thing" in their design thesis makes them in my view not bad options to try to make PCs. The issues arise somewhat form a similar one of the Fair Folk, also with ghosts, and really any non-Exalt splat in 1e and 2e: They can't outdo Exalts. Even Dragon-Blooded. Who themselves are built on "Need to be weak." This kind of double-dipped and often left in Charmsets with notable holes and just bad Charms in context of the game.

(This note is why I always felt enlightened mortals were a placebo in 2e. "Humans can stand up to Exalts" was a farce with their small Essence pools, access to only the weakest Charms at inflated costs and limited caps, no Excellencies, and lower starting traits. Folks liked that diegetic interaction of mortals using PC powers, but it did nothing that just making QCs with Merits or unique stuff like in Adversaries I feel didn't achieve more elegantly.)

This kind of is then made a bit worse with things like how Dragon Kings had the Discipline setup for their Paths which while cool did make their power set limited. And Mountain Folk Patterns ran a bit with the the general take of 1e of the diegesis of things, so needed to be useful for mundane/trivial things for most characters, plus the noted oddness of things like Enchantment Charms due to not letting non-Exalts get sorcery, or being weak so they didn't "overwelm' the Exalted.

I think 3e takes on either group could work with just going with the general 3e trend of "You're playing notable characters" and also not assuming that just because you had supernatural species with notable populations doesn't mean you need to make their Charms suck in order to "preserve" that diegetic vibe. I also think just making them NPCs like fairies and ghosts kind of is a loss since they were IMHO good examples of fantasy species that were actually pretty distinct from humans in personality, outlook, and power capability, and were also in kind of a sad state because of the history of the world moving past them. That you can probably do them in about the wordcount of an Exigent, if not less, is also kind of nice. Dragon Kings already have a strong vibe going fine. Mountain Folk just need to look less dwarfy (which seems to be the goal this edition) and either having just more tuned to be used by actual PCs rather than NPC Charms in a system that has fully statted out NPCs, would do a lotto make them justifiable.
 
<-- Playing in two Exalted Games for the past couple months, on monday and tuesday
<-- Also has both games fall through and end prematurely on the same week.

T_T

I was having fun for a while too. Alas.
 
I unconditionally concede the point about jadeborn, exigents, and anything else anyone finds objectionable. I am not convinced, but I have neither the skill nor knowledge to argue and will not further pollute the thread with my ignorant, poorly considered assertions.

Man, don't beat yourself up like this. It's not healthy.

Besides, there was more truth to that than most of us want to admit.

So, something I learned a while back about ant/bee/eusocial insect genetics is that the workers are genetically almost identical to the queen. Like essentially sterile clones.

(I'm not sure I understood correctly but this misunderstanding gave me the idea so bear with me)

You take that concept of producing essentially clones of yourself, and mix it with the location-people blend Anaja suggested. You have a place that is also a person, and that produces mountain folk that are all essentially clones. A Mountain Folk finds a place to lay down, buries itself into a tunnel or cave or wherever, and grows into... let's call it a factory because I don't have a better idea and am sleepy. The factory then produces Mountain Folk nearly identical to the original, and they fulfill certain roles. Mountain Folk produced by a factory are loyal to it and to its continued function, and will act in its defense and for its well being like ants defending their hive.

"But Half, how would you get different kinds of mountain folk?!"

Simple: Autocthon created multiple types of Mountain Folk. Someone mentioned different castes earlier, play into that a bit.

You get two factories to exchange their Folk, and when a new mountain folk type arrives, it is integrated into the factory, and it produces the new kind, and occasionally mixes the kinds together to produce a new one. The two Folk that are in the factory begin to merge, sharing a consciousness. (ETA: Come to think of it the different folk could act like districts within a city, producing their own kind of folk but also their own sort of architecture... you could have one district of purple crystalline humanoids and another of elfin glass artisans, and between you might have a mix of the two a la a color gradient? I need to sleep...)

If this idea sounds similar to a metropolis that's because it's meant to echo it, at least a little bit. It's like an early protoype.

On its own this isn't enough and I know that. But I think it's a start.

I think there's something there, but you should really read the canonical material for the Mountain Folk before you try rewriting it.

Or just make something new. Honestly, the underground part of the setting could use some more stuff in it.

I'm not sure if we agree or disagree here.
When I say "player character shaped", I'd point to the format used for Yennin in Across the Eight Directions as a model for what I'd want to see.
They get a little over a page of rules that are intended to be a framework to build custom NPCs, but they're basically playable in a way I couldn't say for the Gigantes of Dis, ghosts or Cloud People.

I think I'd want them more PC-shaped than that; Exalted fans and writers alike often neglect NPC character types.

If you think the Mountain Folk are undercooked, look at the Darkbrood! And the total absence of Darkbrood anything is directly related to their complete NPC-ness.
 
Lore-wise Exigents has justifiable reason to exist of course, but I also like them because, well, remember back in 2e everyone make their own devil-tiger exalt? It's neat, but figuring out 'okay how do I add them in game without changing the background too much' is a headache. Exigent let me add random unusual exalted without worrying about lore much.

The angle they aren't necessarily behold to their patron, and in fact might have sufficient raw power to (grow to) be serious challenge to their divine patrons - and this apply to all of them, not just select individuals - is also quite neat. I think this is sufficiently distinguishable from godblooded.
 
You're right, I had entirely forgotten about those guys. In my defense, they're quite forgettable.

Lore-wise Exigents has justifiable reason to exist of course, but I also like them because, well, remember back in 2e everyone make their own devil-tiger exalt? It's neat, but figuring out 'okay how do I add them in game without changing the background too much' is a headache. Exigent let me add random unusual exalted without worrying about lore much.

The angle they aren't necessarily behold to their patron, and in fact might have sufficient raw power to (grow to) be serious challenge to their divine patrons - and this apply to all of them, not just select individuals - is also quite neat. I think this is sufficiently distinguishable from godblooded.

Yeah, they do the Devil-Tiger thing very well.

But the truth is, the fanbase could exercise similar creativity with godbloods and other such beings. We simply don't, partly because we're fixated on the E-word and partly because godbloods and the like don't have enough structure. A framework really counts for a lot, as shown by the difference in the number of fan-made demons and fan-made elementals.
 
God-blooded themselves kind of already fell victim to this back in 1st edition. People responded to their Build-A-Bear type framework with "lets try to make Exalts" which is a big part of why the difference between god-blooded and Exigents is so minor to some.
 
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I remember the Bad Game, and how we had this one guy who had an infinite mote hack based on thaumaturgy, and tried to genuinely argue that he could use thaumaturgy to counter any form of magic in the game.

The ST never stopped giving this guy prizes though, but god forbid you try to ask if you're ever going to get something neat too.
 
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