Don't worry, nobody actually played a rapist with me in Ex2. In fact, I didn't play much Ex2 at all because it was such a mess.

The big thing, for me, is the gulf between the difficulty guidelines and the implied level of competence that people in Creation have.

It's literally impossible to make a character who can't do surgery in this edition, because removing an appendix is a difficulty 1 roll and you can probably do that with 1 die + a stunt. You can certainly do it with 1wp. Elite soldiers can read by touch. Random nomad cavalry can perform impossible feats of tracking.

If you follow the difficulty guidelines, it makes Creation out to be a land where every mortal is Batman. Which is clearly not intended.

Less importantly, much of the Charm fluff contradicts other parts of the book. The most-contradicted bit being the speech at the start of the Charms chapter about how Charms aren't necessarily real things.
 
I mean, it seems like an awesome way to make high essence Alchemicals relevant again

Colony Ships are super fucking awesome.

That said, I can kinda understand why they didn't devote any word count to the concept.

Shards did say at frequent points "Yeah....play in the E2-E5 range. Things don't break as fast that way."

So it makes sense that they wouldn't mention an alternate E9-E10 option for Alchemicals, who didn't even get a mention in Heaven's Reach.

EDIT: Do we even have a General Aberrant Thread?

Nope.

The closest things we've got are @MJ12 Commando's thread on his Aberrant 2.0 homebrew and the Sardonyx thread, which covers all of Trinity and Scion to boot.
 
Don't worry, nobody actually played a rapist with me in Ex2. In fact, I didn't play much Ex2 at all because it was such a mess.

The big thing, for me, is the gulf between the difficulty guidelines and the implied level of competence that people in Creation have.

It's literally impossible to make a character who can't do surgery in this edition, because removing an appendix is a difficulty 1 roll and you can probably do that with 1 die + a stunt. You can certainly do it with 1wp. Elite soldiers can read by touch. Random nomad cavalry can perform impossible feats of tracking.

If you follow the difficulty guidelines, it makes Creation out to be a land where every mortal is Batman. Which is clearly not intended.

Less importantly, much of the Charm fluff contradicts other parts of the book. The most-contradicted bit being the speech at the start of the Charms chapter about how Charms aren't necessarily real things.
Three dice, Medicine1, Int2, without any penalties from dirty equipment or dirty operating conditions, will often, but not always get one success. That...seems about right for a somewhat-but-not-fully trained doctor with good equipment? I think their chances are a bit more than 60 percent? That's still failing four out of ten times.

I also generally would not be giving random mortal doctors stunts or letting them spend WP, because, well, yes, in that case things do get a little silly, giving the PC/major NPC bonuses to every random shmuck in Creation. Stunts and WP spending aren't laws of physics in Creation that anyone can do, man. They're shit for the PCs and their major antagonists, and I've seen arguments that they aren't even for major NPCs! How much does the sillyness change when you remove stunts and WP spending for average folks in Creation or the lesser antagonists? +2 dice,+1 success from a 1-pnt and WP seems to me like it's pretty easily the difference in some of the scenarios you've mentioned.
 
The medicine example was for PCs. Even a PC with Medicine 0 Intelligence 1 Dexterity 1 can do surgery pretty reliably. So you're playing a competent doctor, no matter what stats you choose.

The NPC examples don't actually require stunts or willpower. An elite soldier can read by touch 47.72% of the time even without stunts or willpower. (With a one point stunt and a point of willpower, the chance is 81.18%)

PS: 3 dice gives a 78.4% chance of getting one or more successes.
 
Aren't the difficulty rules from the perspective of the exalted/heroic mortals? I might be remembering wrong but I think the book mentions that pcs should regularly be able to do things that mortals would find difficult and the difficulty rules are built around this.
 
The medicine example was for PCs. Even a PC with Medicine 0 Intelligence 1 Dexterity 1 can do surgery pretty reliably. So you're playing a competent doctor, no matter what stats you choose.

The NPC examples don't actually require stunts or willpower. An elite soldier can read by touch 47.72% of the time even without stunts or willpower. (With a one point stunt and a point of willpower, the chance is 81.18%)

PS: 3 dice gives a 78.4% chance of getting one or more successes.
Huh, thought three dice was less, for some reason. And I think once penalties/increased difficulties for non-optimal surgery environments come in, that Difficulty 1 is gonna look a lot scarier. Plus IIRC the difficulty goes up with their wound penalty.

Also. Appendectomy doesn't equal all surgeries. Just because you can not kill your patient 50 percent of the time don't make you a good doctor.

Unless you, as an ST, decide to look at 'difficulty 1 to remove an appendix' and apply this to filthy battlefields as well as clean and sterile operating rooms alike'?

I won't say it couldn't be a bit clearer, but I think it's reasonable to expect the ST to bump the difficulty the less 'operating room' like the area the surgery is in?

The reading by touch thing is silly, though, I'll give you that, I would require magic or an applicable stunt to make it even possible. Unless old timey paper was weirdly bumpy or something? I dunno.

Aren't the difficulty rules from the perspective of the exalted/heroic mortals? I might be remembering wrong but I think the book mentions that pcs should regularly be able to do things that mortals would find difficult and the difficulty rules are built around this.
Nope. They're built with Joe Schmoe in Creation in mind, and providing a contrast between Solars and Mortals. Solars can regularly ace difficulty 5 with moderate investment, or even very minor investment if they are burning Essence (This is my read of it, at least).
 
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Where are people getting appendix surgery being a difficulty 1 action from. I remember surgery being a default difficulty of 5 and inflicts levels of damage equal to the difficulty of the surgery which makes it pretty close to impossible for non-legendary mortals to succeed regularly. Are we talking about 3e? The post that started this make it sound like 2e but that is the one I got these rules from.
 
3e example difficulties. Removing an appendix is difficulty 1, removing an appendix in the middle of the night without sufficient light during a howling storm is difficulty 2.

So maybe removing an appendix on a dirty table is difficulty 1.5 or something. Regardless, it's all fairly easy. Unless you're running yourself ragged, doing more than one really challenging thing per day, you can just spend a point of willpower.

(Of course, Exalts tend to run themselves ragged pretty regularly. So in play, it's not inconceivable for Dumbass McClumsy to fail a standard surgery roll. Still, the baseline competence here doesn't square with the way the setting's presented.)
 
Frankly, any form of surgery being Difficulty 1 seems absurd to me. Creation's physicians and medicine men are largely not medieval butchers and leech-doctors, but modern-tier doctoring is not an easy craft. @Nuts! would know better than me, but personally if I were to represent a modern doctor of the sort that performs surgery, I'd probably peg them at around Int 3, Medicine 3, with circumstance bonuses from by-Creation-standards exceptional-quality tools and workshops, plus assistants.

The first recorded appendectomy was performed in 1735 at a major hospital. Cutting people open to remove bits of their body with safety and efficiency is, uh, not trivial. Medical school has a pretty gruelling reputation, and for good reason.
 
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Frankly, any form of surgery being Difficulty 1 seems absurd to me. Creation's physics and medicine men are largely not medieval butchers and leech-doctors, but modern-tier doctoring is not an easy craft. @Nuts! would know better than me, but personally if I were represent a modern doctor of the sort that performs surgery, I'd probably peg them at around Int 3, Medicine 3, with circumstance bonuses from by-Creation-standards exceptional-quality tools and workshops, plus assistants.

Cutting people open to remove bits of their body with safety and efficiency is, uh, not trivial.

Surgeons are like, the super-elite top guns of modern doctors. I'd make a strong case that modern surgeons are, as a whole, Int 3-4 effective Medicine 4-5 (2 dots Medicine, +3 Surgery specialty) for an average surgeon, with exceptional ones being Int 4-5, Medicine 4-5, Specialty 3 (11-13d). And if you ask them to, even with practice, do surgery without modern tools, even routine surgery, they'd be like "lol git fukd gize." That's roughly equivalent to where other super-elite people end up.

And yes, Creation is a world of heroes, but that's why the game lets you generate a guy with Int 5, Medicine 5, Surgery +3 at chargen. Int 2, Medicine 2 isn't a surgeon, that's more of what you'd see a battlefield medic with, who would be basically splinting bones and recommending herbal remedies for diarrhea.

EDIT: Pre-med is a huge grinder designed to take a lot of very smart, talented people and wash the vast majority out, so the rest can go to med school.

Surgeons are the elite of the people who manage to end up remaining. I'd say that doesn't end up as '2 in an attribute, 2 in the ability' under any circumstances and probably is way too much for 3 dots.
 
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By the way, the example difficulties explicitly say "Tasks which run-of-the-mill individuals in Creation consider chalellenging (such as picking a lock or removing a patients appendix without killing them) are ordinary fare for heroes".
So it's pretty clearly not a simulationist approach.
 
EDIT: Pre-med is a huge grinder designed to take a lot of very smart, talented people and wash the vast majority out, so the rest can go to med school.

Surgeons are the elite of the people who manage to end up remaining. I'd say that doesn't end up as '2 in an attribute, 2 in the ability' under any circumstances and probably is way too much for 3 dots.
Duly noted.

So what this tells me is that Medicine 1 is somebody who knows some home remedies and maybe a bit of basic first aid, Medicine 2 is a fledgeling village wise woman or journeyman apothecary, Medicine 3 is an experienced village witch or a city-living professional healer, and Medicine 4-5 is like, Granny Weatherwax or Perry Cox.
 
By the way, the example difficulties explicitly say "Tasks which run-of-the-mill individuals in Creation consider chalellenging (such as picking a lock or removing a patients appendix without killing them) are ordinary fare for heroes".
So it's pretty clearly not a simulationist approach.

Then why not simulate this by having, you know, heroic characters have higher skills in the realms they're heroic in?

Like, what does Exalted 3E lose if Achilles, who was trained in music by Chieron himself, has Cha 4 Performance 4 instead of Cha 2 Performance 2? Like, does that take away from his legend somehow if he's also a brooding genius and musical miracle-worker as well as the kind of guy who is so good at fite that "fighting Achilles" instead of "being executed by Achilles" is an incredible deed in and of itself?

Because when you explicitly call out "average capability" as 4 dice, and then you go "except not really and we're not giving you any guides as to what that means" it makes it super-hard to actually eyeball a difficulty.

Like, under the 2E difficulty ratings, where 1 was 'basic' and 5 was 'heroic' and difficulties stayed consistent between heroes and non-heroes, and the difference was largely one of dice pools, you could eyeball the difficulty of something. Is it something most people with some ability in the field can succeed at? Difficulty 1.

Is it something you'd want a trained professional to do? Difficulty 2 or maybe 3 if the professional will need to redo it a few times, or is expected to fail often.

Is it something that's actually really hard? 4-5. This is much simpler than "a difficulty 1 task may not be a difficulty 1 task."
 
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Although now I'm curious - @MJ12 Commando, under your model of an average surgeon being Int 3-4 Med 2 Spec 3 and exceptional ones being Int 4-5, Med 4-5, Specialty 3, where does somebody like Dr. Leonid Rogozov slot in, the 1900's Soviet general practitioner and surgeon who was forced to surgically remove his own appendix, aided only by a driver and a meteorologist?
 
Although now I'm curious - @MJ12 Commando, under your model of an average surgeon being Int 3-4 Med 2 Spec 3 and exceptional ones being Int 4-5, Med 4-5, Specialty 3, where does somebody like Dr. Leonid Rogozov slot in, the 1900's Soviet general practitioner and surgeon who was forced to surgically remove his own appendix, aided only by a driver and a meteorologist?

Maybe he just rolled really, really well? Like, exceptional success upon exceptional success. I mean, that seems like the best way to model the 'What the fuck' feats for any such system, rather than creating higher levels of skill. Like, one assumes he doesn't usually do those operations aided by only a driver and a meterologist, so it's clear he just rolled really well.

Or maybe he was a Heroic Mortal PC who spent Willpower and then convinced the GM to fudge his dice.

Of course, that's my own guess. MJ12 Commando probably has their own answers.
 
Although now I'm curious - @MJ12 Commando, under your model of an average surgeon being Int 3-4 Med 2 Spec 3 and exceptional ones being Int 4-5, Med 4-5, Specialty 3, where does somebody like Dr. Leonid Rogozov slot in, the 1900's Soviet general practitioner and surgeon who was forced to surgically remove his own appendix, aided only by a driver and a meteorologist?
Isn't an appendectomy just about the easiest invasive surgical procedure?
 
Although now I'm curious - @MJ12 Commando, under your model of an average surgeon being Int 3-4 Med 2 Spec 3 and exceptional ones being Int 4-5, Med 4-5, Specialty 3, where does somebody like Dr. Leonid Rogozov slot in, the 1900's Soviet general practitioner and surgeon who was forced to surgically remove his own appendix, aided only by a driver and a meteorologist?

Ludicrous feats which get your name in history books should probably not be easy even for world-class people, I'd say. So most of them failing, and it being a really long-odds roll that you can only sort of get okayish success chances on by throwing around stunts and expending tons of resources is fine. These ridiculous epic things kind of work best when they're hard to do, like when in my oMage game my character blew the brains out of a 12 foot tall miniature giant biomechanical robot with a single shot from a handgun (admittedly that handgun was Mjolnir, King of All Small Arms). It'd lose some of its impact if it was something you could do without a really good roll, y'know?
 
Then why not simulate this by having, you know, heroic characters have higher skills in the realms they're heroic in?

Like, what does Exalted 3E lose if Achilles, who was trained in music by Chieron himself, has Cha 4 Performance 4 instead of Cha 2 Performance 2? Like, does that take away from his legend somehow if he's also a brooding genius and musical miracle-worker as well as the kind of guy who is so good at fite that "fighting Achilles" instead of "being executed by Achilles" is an incredible deed in and of itself?

Because when you explicitly call out "average capability" as 4 dice, and then you go "except not really and we're not giving you any guides as to what that means" it makes it super-hard to actually eyeball a difficulty.

Like, under the 2E difficulty ratings, where 1 was 'basic' and 5 was 'heroic' and difficulties stayed consistent between heroes and non-heroes, and the difference was largely one of dice pools, you could eyeball the difficulty of something. Is it something most people with some ability in the field can succeed at? Difficulty 1.

Is it something you'd want a trained professional to do? Difficulty 2 or maybe 3 if the professional will need to redo it a few times, or is expected to fail often.

Is it something that's actually really hard? 4-5. This is much simpler than "a difficulty 1 task may not be a difficulty 1 task."
To be fair, the concept of stacking the deck was still there in 2e, in the form of better Stunt rules, double 10s, and freer Willpower use for Exalts/Heroes as opposed to Extras. I think one of the intents is to make heroes heroic even when they're pushed outside their comfort zones.
Clumsily executed in 3e? Sure, perhaps. I'm not going to argue against the execution being suboptimal.

Also, the issue with difficulties in Exalted is that they're a bit too granular. E.g. you don't want a novice pilot to crash even 1% of his landings, but if you set the difficulty of landing to 1, you still have the issue that a novice pilot with 3 dice will fail about 20% of the time, while an average-skilled one (4 dice) does it 12% of the time. The same issue applies to other fields.

The 'fail and try again' approach partially solves that, but it also means that all tasks will need to be resolved using multiple rolls, which IME many people dislike.

Would I prefer difficulties to be handled differently? Yes, but I don't think it's possible to arrive at a satisfactory outcome in the current dice system.

Okay, to make it less contentious by broadening things, I think this is the fundamental disagreement between Ex3E fans and people who dislike it.

The people who dislike it tend to be inclined to look at the SA/RPGnet "worst gaming experiences" threads and how long they are and go "we can't trust players to not be complete fuckups" while the fans are like "my group isn't made of complete fuckups, I'm going to be fine with this product, warts and all," or even more drastically, in the case of the devs, "we can't prevent all sorts of fuckupedness, so we might as well just put in the minimum to make sure our stance is clear."

Is this a mutually agreeable conclusion? :p
In broad terms, that seems to be a large part of what is colouring the division into these two camps. Though I find it a bit odd that people simultaneously believe that (a) f-ups are all over the place to the point that game design should be expected to prioritise changes intended to protect against f-ups and (b) that such changes will actually work at protecting against complete f-ups.
Of the two most f'ed up stories about RPGs I heard, it was very clear that no amount of authorial finger-waving warnings would be of any help. (In general, I believe no amount of foolproofing will protect a complicated mechanism from being deliberately damaged sooner or later; RPGs are similar to complicated mechanisms.)
 
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shut up it is a legitimate term

like how a miniature giant space hamster is an entirely different thing from a regular space hamster
Was it a full-sized giant robot that had been miniaturised, perhaps by some cog-wielding Etherite with a shrinking ray?

No?

Then it was merely a large biomechanical robot. Not a miniature giant one.
 
Surgeons are like, the super-elite top guns of modern doctors. I'd make a strong case that modern surgeons are, as a whole, Int 3-4 effective Medicine 4-5 (2 dots Medicine, +3 Surgery specialty) for an average surgeon, with exceptional ones being Int 4-5, Medicine 4-5, Specialty 3 (11-13d). And if you ask them to, even with practice, do surgery without modern tools, even routine surgery, they'd be like "lol git fukd gize." That's roughly equivalent to where other super-elite people end up.
I'd argue that @Imrix is closer.
Int 3, Med 2-3 and Specialty plus teamwork and circumstance bonuses.
You'd only be looking at Int 4, Med 4-5 territory(+Specialties) when it comes to especially delicate stuff like neuro and cardiac surgeons, or pediatric surgery.

Isn't an appendectomy just about the easiest invasive surgical procedure?
No.
That would be a lumpectomy or something similar, where you're going into relatively avascular tissue to remove a cyst or growth.

An appendectomy is pretty straightforward, but you are performing the procedure on tissue that is fairly easy to puncture unintentionally, and trying to avoid having the appendix perforate and spill infection into the peritoneal cavity.
And doing so through a two to four inch incision at that.

In a lot of ways, of the common invasive procedures, it's easiest to perform a cesarean section.
From induction of anesthesia to baby out is ~ten to fifteen minutes, with the remaining hour/hour and half being cleanup and repair.
Generous incision, obvious physical landmarks, strong muscle.....you just need a deft hand with the needle.

Just try not to fuck up the initial incision and cut into the placenta when going into the uterus.
 
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Thank you for correcting my misconceptions about surgical difficulty! I like knowing things.
 
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