Oh, certainly.
Enough to go to war over it though? When said experiments turn out the equivalent of vanity projects?
Not so much.
Which is where my comment about fecundity comes into play. I think.
Well yeah, but then they're putting the results of those vanity projects in high import positions that they can only barely function in, such as being the Golden Queen of a nation, or other such abuses of power, rather than your naturally stronger and more competent element super soldiers.

EDIT: Siderealed? Adorjaned? Whatever, Aleph said it better.
 
No, it was more the way that their vanity projects were invariably promoted over better-qualified Terrestrials who'd trained their whole lives for the roles, and quite often had groups of gorgeous Solar-made automata assigned to them instead of Dragonblooded troops.

Hence, you know. Marama's Fell.
Marama's Fell is not a reasonable response to nepotism.
I agree with your general point, I just feel like that's not the best thing to point at.
 
In my games Celestial Exalts do not have empowered children; not godbloods, not gods-in-flesh, not anything. The child of a Solar is a mortal. The Celestial Exaltation was designed explicitly to prevent two things; immortality and dynasty creation. Regardless of how awesome your Essence or mighty your Charms eventually a Celestial dies and their children are normal children like anyone else. This was things working as intended. The Incarna knew they had to do something with the Celestial after the War and they did not want immortal empires of Exalts looking hungrily at heaven.

That being said, often the progeny of Exalts had powers and abilities beyond mortal ken but this was because such children were the... let's say 'beneficiaries' of Celestial tier Training effects, sorcerous imbuements, biomotonic induced mutations, Enlightenment effects and everything else the parents could hit them with. Quite a few of them were promoted into gods as well after certain Zeniths and Eclipses called in owed favors.

As a Celestial Exalt, if you want to turn your infant into an inhuman being you have to work for it. The Golden Children were not an accident of birth, they were a deliberate and ongoing effort by the Deliberative to supplant the Gens with a less powerful but more pliable and loyal middle class. After all, the prevailing wisdom was that Dragonblooded were defunct. The systems crafted by the Solars were so perfect they did not require Dragonblooded most of the time and the few occasions they did a single Solar troubleshooting for a months was often worth more than a hundred Dragonblooded working round the clock for years.

As for Abyssals and Infernals? Abyssals can have children, all the children they want. The problem is that doing so causes a shit ton of resonance and the resulting resonance backlash is likely to be bad for you and the child. Infernals can have mortal children unless they invest heavily in certain Yozi (Kimbery, Metagaos, Adorjan being the big ones) that allow you to have fucked up monster children.

EDIT: Also, any ruleset which prevents me from running the dispossessed child of an Elder Exalt recruited through contrivances into a faction that opposes him is a bad ruleset. If the daughter of my Solar warlord can not be a crushing failure and disappointment to her mother such that she gets offered an Infernal Exaltation then nope, not going to use it.
 
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I'm really doubting that Autochthon was overly worried about this when he was making the Exaltations to punch in the face of his siblings. What led you to think this?

Autocthon didn't care. The Incarna cared.

As for what led me to think this? There is a quote in first edition specifically saying that the Exaltation was prevented from being spread into heirs to prevent dynasties. I think its in Games of Divinity but I will check when I get home.
 
Autocthon didn't care. The Incarna cared.

As for what led me to think this? There is a quote in first edition specifically saying that the Exaltation was prevented from being spread into heirs to prevent dynasties. I think its in Games of Divinity but I will check when I get home.
But it is spread into heirs. See the Dragonblooded, an entire splat where it's passed on to heirs.
 
But it is spread into heirs. See the Dragonblooded, an entire splat where it's passed on to heirs.

1: The Dragonblooded were not considered a threat to the Incarna.

2: Gaia is not an Incarna, and she considered the Dragonblooded even less of a threat to her than Sol and pals do.

TLDR: Nobody cares if Dragonblooded multiply. Celestials Exalts, however, are peer level opponents and the Incarna did not want to worry about 700-to-7 odds, much less 700*n generations-to-7 odds.
 
Hmm, the text says "declare (charms) before any dice are rolled".
Does that "any dice" mean "any dice at all related to the attack", or is it "the dice you are affecting by the charm"?
It's fairly clearly the former. Charms that can be activated after the attack roll are all labeled as such, even ones that only affect damage. The only real reason to think otherwise is legacy assumptions carried over from previous editions.

Of course, some mechanical silliness like the There is no Wind example aside, I don't actually see the drawback of handling it like this:
"I attack, declaring all charms that will enhance it's damage and attack roll"
"I defend, declaring all charms that will enhance my defense and damage resistance".
At least it's pretty simple and clear, and as I said I don't see a drawback to it right now.
Indeed. (Though more than a few damage resistance charms explicitly except themselves from this.) Try it the other way and you'll find that combat generally becomes vastly more lethal due to the ability to freely stack damaging effects after the attack hits, where there is no fear of wasting them. Unless someone has Adamant Skin Technique— then they'll be pretty much impossible to kill.
 
Historical interest point: Half-castes broke the strategic layer game. Like, completely broke the strategic layer game. The only meaningful prohibition they really had was their inability to fight on Exalt levels, but you didn't build them for fighting. Rather, they were a great way to spam all the monstrously powerful noncombat effects you wanted, like Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe or Craftsman Needs No Tools, most of which were E3 or below.

This is why the Golden Children and the other Celestial empowered children in Scorp's writeup don't use Celestial Charms.
 
1: The Dragonblooded were not considered a threat to the Incarna.

2: Gaia is not an Incarna, and she considered the Dragonblooded even less of a threat to her than Sol and pals do.

TLDR: Nobody cares if Dragonblooded multiply. Celestials Exalts, however, are peer level opponents and the Incarna did not want to worry about 700-to-7 odds, much less 700*n generations-to-7 odds.
So the Elemental Supersoldiers that were the backbone of the Primordial War, Who killed all but 10 or 12 Solars of the First Age and drove the Lunars to the edge of Creation and killed most of them, who damn near died to the Man defending Creation from the Balorian Crusade, when ravaged by the Great Contagion.

The Dragon-Blooded while not on par with individually with the Celestials, are the most numerous of the Exalted, and can and will drown you with numbers if the deem it necessary.

Enough DBs can kill anything.

TLDR, People care about DBs Multiplying because the more there are the more dangerous they get.
 
Here's another updated version.

Changes:
- Tweaked sidenote placement
- Added a "How to Play" section with definition for notation
- Changed onslaught penalties to apply after attack roll but before damage, and clarified counterattacks to still happen even if the attack roll fails
- Changed phase resolution to make Clash attacks work better and to say what happens if a character's incapacitated

I think the last item there should answer @Irked's hypothetical: the Clashes would be resolved in order from highest (Join Battle, then Dexterity + Athletics as a tiebreaker) to lowest for each pair, and anybody who dies wouldn't Clash with anyone lower in that oder.
Page 9: The +3s on JB isn't quite right, unless you intend for an initiative shift to give you 6 initiative plus the result of the roll.
Page 10: The rules on driving yourself into Crash changed between the leak and the backer release:
If a character forces himself into Initiative Crash (such
as by using a Charm which costs Initiative to activate),
then the Initiative Break bonus is awarded to the opponent
most directly responsible for provoking the action
which caused the character to Crash, at the Storyteller's
discretion.
Also, Initiative Shifts are harder to get than you say: You can only do it while still in Initiative Crash, not at any point later in the fight.
Page 11: The descriptions of the modified range bands seem pretty weird with the variable zone sizes. Four city blocks is not too far for semaphore flags to work! This also causes weirdness with weapon ranges, but I'm willing to accept that as a funky gameplay abstraction.
Also, difficult terrain in the original rules only halves your reflexive movement - disengaging, etc. get the -3 penalty instead of this, not in addition to it. This is important, because in the rules as you've presented them, disengaging doesn't actually disengage unless you do it twice in a row, which is surely not intentional.
Sidebar 16: Why would you rush a guy who's already in the same zone as you?
Page 12: I'm pretty sure the -3 penalty to stealth only applies if you try to hide again while already fighting, and not if you're hidden at the start of the fight. Yes, this is very badly communicated.
Page 13: You're allowed to aim with a non-ranged weapon, too.
Also, I'm pretty sure you do get your last action if you get incapacitated on the same tick you act - unless this is a deliberate change you're making?
Page 14: Shanking a guy you're holding at bay is an ambush attack, not a surprise attack.
Page 15: You have to already be in stealth before you can start making Go to Ground actions.
Page 16: Just as a matter of formatting, I'd put "other simple action" at the end of the list, not in alphabetical order. Just as a matter of convention, "other" always goes last.
Technically, you can only move and then rush; you can't rush and then move.
Page 17: Difficult terrain doesn't give you a bonus to take cover; it just says that it's often easy (and so should usually have a low difficulty set by the ST).
Also, cover goes Light-Heavy-Total, not Light-Medium-Heavy. Changing the terminology will just mislead everyone who looks at your writeup and then looks at charms that talk about heavy cover.
Page 19: A withering savage automatically hits, even if you roll 0 successes.
Page 20: Why are steps 3 and 4 separate?
Echoing Irked that decisive attacks only cost 2-3i if you miss.
I'm going to disagree about when onslaught should be applied - more on this below.
Oh, and you should specify somewhere when charm costs are paid - presumably right after being declared.
Page 21: I think you should swap 7e and 7f so that, in the strange event that someone is somehow crashed by a decisive attack, the attacker actually gets the bonus.
Page 24: I don't think being hit by lightning is actually uncountable damage. I wouldn't call an avalanche uncountable, either, unless you actually get swept down the side of the mountain and buried - which would certainly happen to a real person, but standing your ground and swatting every stone aside with your daiklave is totally the kind of thing an exalt could do.

About onslaught: I don't think Double Attack Technique actually indicates that the designers intended for onslaught to tick up in the middle of attack resolution. I think it indicates that whoever wrote it said "The second attack benefits from onslaught because it's a separate attack, and I don't care that it's being resolved as part of the first attack. I will cheerfully ignore the rules implications of this because that's the way I roll, baby." Let's face it, we all know that that's how the 3e devs roll. Besides, ticking onslaught up in the middle of attack resolution feels super-hairy, and given the option between a hairy interpretation of the rules and a clean one, I'll err on the side of cleanliness every time.
 
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TLDR, People care about DBs Multiplying because the more there are the more dangerous they get.

Keep in mind that the Usurpation was not just the Dragonblooded versus the Solars, it was the Dragonblooded and their Sidereal allies versus the Solars and their Dragonblooded loyalists. The fact is that the major powers don't consider DRagonblooded the same kind of threat they consider Celestial Exalts. That's the entire reason for the Great Prophecy. The Sidereals knew that the world without Solars was a lesser world than one with it, but also a safer world.

The fact is, even with millions of Dragonblooded on hand they could not and did not maintain the High First Age infrastructure that the Solars were able to. Nor were they able to hold the borders of Creation and, under their watch, Creation experienced two of the most devastating apocalypses which were only defeated because they managed to salvage a High First Age superweapon of Solar/Primordial design.

Plus, even if they could reach the same power level collectively as the High First Age (they can't, but lets say they can) they're significantly more stable than the Celestial Exalts. Because of the nature of Dragonblooded charms you need to have a lot of them all pointed in the same direction before you can get a significant force multiplier. This means that you need to get consensus and moderation in your goals, because if a third of your Dragonblooded host wants X and a third wants Not X than nobody is going to be doing much of anything about it because the forces kind of cancel out, and even if they didn't they wouldn't be able to put as much ompf behind their efforts as they would if they all agreed.

This isn't the case with Celestials, especially Solars. A lone Solar is a major power in an off themselves and only grows more dangerous and unpredictable as they reach Elder levels of experience and power. A single sufficiently charismatic and motivated Solar can drag her fellows along on a Salinian Working or equivalent action to alter the fundamental fabric of reality itself. Solars (and other Celestials) are destabilizing by their nature and by how powerful they are.

TLDR; DRagonblooded get more dangerous the more of them they are but its logarithmically not exponentially. Eventually they reach a point of diminishing returns and that point is beneath "significant threat to Incarna level opponents."

If the Incarna could have won the War with just Dragonblooded, they would not have made the Celestial Exalted.
 
The fifty thousand Gaia created isnt enough?

In all likely hood if Auto-kun had been able to convice Gaia to join his 'Shank the siblings' plan I'd argue a big enough army of DBs and Alchemicals could win a Primordial Civil War.

Luckily for the Incarna Luna held Gaias attwntion instead.
 
Page 9: The +3s on JB isn't quite right, unless you intend for an initiative shift to give you 6 initiative plus the result of the roll.
Good point. Fixed.

Page 10: The rules on driving yourself into Crash changed between the leak and the backer release:
That's already in there, under the Break paragraph.

Also, Initiative Shifts are harder to get than you say: You can only do it while still in Initiative Crash, not at any point later in the fight.
Fixed.

Page 11: The descriptions of the modified range bands seem pretty weird with the variable zone sizes. Four city blocks is not too far for semaphore flags to work! This also causes weirdness with weapon ranges, but I'm willing to accept that as a funky gameplay abstraction.
Good point. Trying to pin a specific size on a zone kind of breaks, though, because the writers went all wibbly-wobbly on range band sizes in the first place. That said, I'd be interested in seeing ideas for specific numbers based on calculations or whatever.

Also, difficult terrain in the original rules only halves your reflexive movement - disengaging, etc. get the -3 penalty instead of this, not in addition to it. This is important, because in the rules as you've presented them, disengaging doesn't actually disengage unless you do it twice in a row, which is surely not intentional.

Goddang overlapping terminology everywhere rassafrassum... Fixed.

Sidebar 16: Why would you rush a guy who's already in the same zone as you?
So that if they move away from you, you stay at short range to them.

Page 12: I'm pretty sure the -3 penalty to stealth only applies if you try to hide again while already fighting, and not if you're hidden at the start of the fight. Yes, this is very badly communicated.
Good point. Fixed.

Page 13: You're allowed to aim with a non-ranged weapon, too.
Fixed.

Also, I'm pretty sure you do get your last action if you get incapacitated on the same tick you act - unless this is a deliberate change you're making?
At the moment, I can't find any definitive statement for or against it. The devs still haven't even answered "if my Solar Counterattack kills a guy does his attack still damage me".

Page 14: Shanking a guy you're holding at bay is an ambush attack, not a surprise attack.
Fixed.

Page 15: You have to already be in stealth before you can start making Go to Ground actions.
Note the Requirement listed for the action.

Page 16: Just as a matter of formatting, I'd put "other simple action" at the end of the list, not in alphabetical order. Just as a matter of convention, "other" always goes last.
Good point. I've done so.

Technically, you can only move and then rush; you can't rush and then move.
Ugh, that's dumb. Fixed.

Page 17: Difficult terrain doesn't give you a bonus to take cover; it just says that it's often easy (and so should usually have a low difficulty set by the ST).
Fixed.

Also, cover goes Light-Heavy-Total, not Light-Medium-Heavy. Changing the terminology will just mislead everyone who looks at your writeup and then looks at charms that talk about heavy cover.
Fixed.

Page 19: A withering savage automatically hits, even if you roll 0 successes.
Fixed.

Page 20: Why are steps 3 and 4 separate?
Some vague possibility of Charms that could affect it.

Oh, and you should specify somewhere when charm costs are paid - presumably right after being declared.
Good point. Added.

Page 21: I think you should swap 7e and 7f so that, in the strange event that someone is somehow crashed by a decisive attack, the attacker actually gets the bonus.
Good point. Fixed.

Page 24: I don't think being hit by lightning is actually uncountable damage. I wouldn't call an avalanche uncountable, either, unless you actually get swept down the side of the mountain and buried - which would certainly happen to a real person, but standing your ground and swatting every stone aside with your daiklave is totally the kind of thing an exalt could do.
Hmm. Other ideas for examples?

Besides, ticking onslaught up in the middle of attack resolution feels super-hairy
Just saying, but literally everything in this ruleset is super-hairy.

What would you say about Ferocious Jab - if you hit somebody once with it, does it add no damage, or +1 damage?

Edit:

Echoing Irked that decisive attacks only cost 2-3i if you miss.
Less snarkily, (hopefully) more helpfully: why do you have the Decisive attacker losing 2-3i, in step 5, before he finds out whether he misses or not? I thought that was specifically an "on miss" kind of thing - in which case it'd go in step 7(f).
Fixed.

Why is Evasion calculated off of Athletics, rather than Dodge?
Me being dumb. Fixed.
 
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Wait. Waitwaitwait.

So, people can propose unclear areas of the rules, and in response the rules... sometimes... change? They don't just come out, still totally unclear, six months later?

Hang on, I need a minute to absorb this idea.

I would like to laugh about this, but I really can't.

I actually don't understand why the final release is still so sloppy. There are so many obvious fixes that they completely neglected to make. It's as if they just don't care, except they obviously do because there's no other reason to work on a project like this one.

Fixing all that art must have been difficult and expensive, but they managed it. So why are there so many issues with the text?

For some reason, the single bit that annoys me most is that they still haven't added the word "willing" to CBT.
 
What if they just couldn't make enough Dragonblooded...? Like, if they'd had the capability to spam arbitrary amounts of Dragonblooded, you'd think they'd have done so, but I haven't heard anything of the sort.
Plus, you know, they didn't know if they were going to win at the start. It made more sense to try and stack the deck in their favor, rather than take the safe route.
 
Here's another updated version of my rewrite.

Changes:
- Added first pass of Social Influence
- Added first pass of Archery Charms
- Tweaked combat action ordering
- Tweaked crash resolution
- Fixed Join Battle and Shift
- Fixed Shift conditions
- Fixed difficult terrain and movement
- Fixed Stealth penalty in combat
- Fixed Aim and non-ranged ewapons
- Fixed hold at bay attacks
- Fixed Initiative loss on decisive attacks
- Fixed Rush action timing
- Fixed cover terminology
- Fixed savage maneuver
- Clarified effect payments
- Fixed Evasion calculation
 
Chiming in on the topic of Alchemical children here. Standard and Collosus levels of Alchemical development pretty clearly don't have kids, but once they become a city it can get kind of fuzzy. If you have ever something like a Genesis Vat grown into your city-body, you could theoretically influence the children grown there into becoming weird cyborg spirits.

Yes but those really aren't 'children' anymore, those are genetically engineered things which happen to have some sort of connection to you. In fact, I don't see why a Metropolis Alchemical can't have what are basically Ancillaries. It's thematic for them and leads to the intriguing punishment for criminals in Autochthonia being turned into living remotes for their city which happen to have the city's abilities and motivation and can be monitored and possessed by the city itself.

And you can obviously have an upgrade charm which lets you Harbinger one of them at a time and use them as a remote, personal-scale body for limited periods. "I SHALL SEE TO THIS PERSONALLY" etc etc.
 
Yes but those really aren't 'children' anymore, those are genetically engineered things which happen to have some sort of connection to you. In fact, I don't see why a Metropolis Alchemical can't have what are basically Ancillaries. It's thematic for them and leads to the intriguing punishment for criminals in Autochthonia being turned into living remotes for their city which happen to have the city's abilities and motivation and can be monitored and possessed by the city itself.

And you can obviously have an upgrade charm which lets you Harbinger one of them at a time and use them as a remote, personal-scale body for limited periods. "I SHALL SEE TO THIS PERSONALLY" etc etc.
PLEASE GOD SOMEONE WRITE THIS! IT OPENS UP SO MANY COOL STORIES.

Another interesting thing you could bud off of that would be an implant for regular citizens that let's them retain their own will, but call on the city's power in times of great need. Of course, there would have to be a heavy cost.
 
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I admit I was kind of sad that Shards of the Exalted dream didn't have Alchemical City ships as an alternate option for high essence Alchemical play.

'Sit here and plug in? Nah, I'm gonna eat a star and surf the cosmic waves"
 
No, it was more the way that their vanity projects were invariably promoted over better-qualified Terrestrials who'd trained their whole lives for the roles, and quite often had groups of gorgeous Solar-made automata assigned to them instead of Dragonblooded troops.

Hence, you know. Marama's Fell.

Here, too, Golden Children are even more pernicious - because they get Solar Excellencies with a Solar dicecap, but nothing else Solar. It means that in day-to-day administration when people are just using excellencies, they look like they can hold their own against a Terrestrial and indeed beat them. And then the Solar can all be like "Yo, kiddo's in charge but has to stay out of harm's reach since she's not as tough as you".

... but that competitiveness only lasts as long as they're just using excellency dice. Once Terrestrials start pulling out their native charms or if they keep on having to roll and the fact that the Terrestrial has a proper mote reactor while the golden child doesn't, the difference tells. It means the golden child talks a good game, but crumbles when the going gets tough. And then their Terrestrial subordinates have to pull their butt out of the fire.
 
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