General Exalted Thread

[Peanuckle]

So this is completely unrelated to the topic at hand, but I was watching some Let's Plays of indie horror games like Sepulchre, The Cat Lady and Downfall and I wanted to represent that sort of nightmarish dream-realm with some charms. So I gave them to Oramus. I whipped these up in like ten minutes so they're probably not great, but I'd appreciate any comments and critique to see how they could be improved.

Spoiler: charm text

SHRIEKING SOUL NIGHT-TERRORS
Cost: 5m; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Simple
Keywords: Illusion, Emotion
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Touch of the Eldest

Oramus weaves hideous nightmares from his mad inspiration to enlighten others to the truth. Reaching forth into the minds of others, the Infernal draws forth their hidden torments and brings them to light. This charm permanently upgrades Touch of the Eldest, allowing the Infernal to make contact with anyone suffering from any Derangement, instead of just those affected by Ululating Nightmare Wings. He may also pay an additional 5 motes whenever he spends willpower to make contact in order to craft a nightmare realm based around the Derangement (or Derangements) the target has. The affected person finds themselves trapped in the nightmare realm whenever they sleep, forced to endure whatever mad puzzles and traps the Infernal has constructed for them. Such hazards are always thematically and metaphorically based around the Derangement(s) the person suffers from. For every week the target spends in the nightmare, their Derangement rating increases by one. The Infernal's player is encouraged to construct disturbing and unsettling imagery, but the Storyteller has the final say in what may be included.

Example: An Infernal has affected an Immaculate monk with a one-dot derangement of paranoia. He constructs an elaborate nightmare mansion that the monk wakes up in every night. Long corridors, paintings with roving eyes, dark corners and claustrophobic rooms fill the building. The Infernal constructs the mansion in such a way that the monk is forced to explore and expose himself in order to advance, only allowing him to wake up when he escapes the building. The amount of time spent in the nightmare does not track with real-time, so the monk may spend hours or days in the nightmare whenever he sleeps. Over time, the constant nightmares enhance his paranoia and he begins seeing the threats of the nightmare overlap with the waking world, increasing the strength of his Derangement.

MADNESS AND CRUELTY AS ONE
Cost: (+1m); Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Illusion, Emotion, Shaping
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Shrieking Soul Night-Terrors

It is not enough that the mad be forced to recognize their insanity; they must be made to confront it. This charm upgrades Shrieking Soul Night-Terrors: For every additional mote the Infernal spends upon constructing the nightmare realm, he may make an alteration to it beyond the physical setting. A pervasive feeling of dread, voices that whisper unkind truths or lies, representations of real people, monsters that track him throughout the nightmare, dangerous traps and grotesque puzzles are all examples of things the Infernal may construct. Should the target be slain at any time, their Derangement increases by one dot and the nightmare continues as they wake up within the nightmare again. No actual harm suffered in the dream carries over to the real world.

Example: The paintings on the walls now whisper to the monk that he is being hunted by a vicious monster. Upon entering a dark room, the lights flash to reveal a hideous figure with long, grasping claws reaching out for him. The creature pursues him throughout the nightmare and may inflict harm, though no physical damage carries over to the waking world. The monk is slain by the monster or by cunning traps several times, waking up anew in the nightmare whenever he dies. The incredible mental strain of such nightmares exacerbates his paranoia to the point where he abandons his duties and flees into the wilderness, unable to endure the gazes of others.


LORD OF LUNACY
Cost: - (5m); Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Madness and Cruelty as One

An Infernal may find themselves curious about just how their target is faring inside the carefully-constructed horrors they have wrought. This charm allows the Infernal to insert themselves into the nightmare as a disembodied presence. Within the nightmare, the Infernal may spend motes as by Madness and Cruelty as One to make further alterations, bringing new terrors into existence and commanding existing ones. The Infernal may also spend 5 motes to assume a physical body and interact with the environment and the victim as if he were actually there.


DREAMBORNE NIGHTMARE PLAGUE
Cost: - Mins: Essence 5; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Illusion, Emotion, Shaping, Sorcerous
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Shrieking Soul Night-Terrors

Madness is the kingdom of Oramus and all kings seek to expand their territory. Whenever someone enduring the nightmares created by the prerequisite charm speaks to another of their suffering, that person finds themselves brought into the nightmare whenever they sleep as a one-time Shaping effect. Should they be slain in the nightmare, then they gain the Derangement of the original victim and begin experiencing their own horrors as if they were affected by Shrieking Soul Night-Terrors.

 

[Revlid]

So this is completely unrelated to the topic at hand, but I was watching some Let's Plays of indie horror games like Sepulchre, The Cat Lady and Downfall and I wanted to represent that sort of nightmarish dream-realm with some charms. So I gave them to Oramus. I whipped these up in like ten minutes so they're probably not great, but I'd appreciate any comments and critique to see how they could be improved.

Click to shrink...

One bit of fairly universal advice is to compare everything you write to similar stuff that's already been written, so you can benefit from their avoidance of pitfalls and so on. I'm unfamiliar with Touch of the Eldest, the base Charm at play, but the basic idea here seems similar to the Infernal Monster nightmare Charms that Nephilpal wrote for the Ink Monkeys, so I'd consider taking a look at that.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

This might be old news to some of you, but I'd appreciate feedback on my EX3 Craft rewrite.

I think there's good stuff in there, and it's definitely better than the dumpster-fire that canon gave us, but it's still pretty unpolished and I would like to improve it.

 

[Peanuckle]

One bit of fairly universal advice is to compare everything you write to similar stuff that's already been written, so you can benefit from their avoidance of pitfalls and so on. I'm unfamiliar with Touch of the Eldest, the base Charm at play, but the basic idea here seems similar to the Infernal Monster nightmare Charms that Nephilpal wrote for the Ink Monkeys, so I'd consider taking a look at that.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the tip, I'll look at them.

As for Touch of the Eldest, it lets you spend 1 willpower to make mental contact with anyone who has a derangement you've given them through other Oramus charms.

Spoiler: Touch of the Eldest

TOUCH OF THE ELDEST
Cost: — (1wp); Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Waking Dreamer Paradox Existence
The Solar Host has bound Oramus as securely as can be done, preventing his every hope of egress. Nevertheless the Dragon Beyond the World always finds ways, however small, for his will to move around and through his cage. While asleep the Infernal senses the number and rough location (down to a precision of 100 yards) of people affected by Ululating Nightmare Wings. In addition, by spending a single point of Willpower, she may reach out with her mind to them if they are sleeping too, communicating with them for a single Scene in a landscape of shared dream-images. In this scenery neither party may physically harm the other, and both may end the scenario at any time by spending one Willpower to wake up, but they can still engage in Social Combat and use Charms that don't inflict physical damage.

 

[Jon Chung]

No it's not. The Exaltation is not something you wield, it's something you are. It is not a weapon; it is a change in your nature, it's power, it's potential.

Is a soldier a weapon? Is a decorated war veteran a particularly powerful weapon? Is a lawyer, a diplomat, a spy a weapon?

There is a paradigm under which the answer is 'yes,' but that paradigm also diminished the point you're driving at. Sailor, soldier and spy are agents of a greater authority, empowered to fulfill its goals. But if they're weapons, then everyone is - and the term becomes meaningless. We are all, to an extent, tools of the society that wield us. But it's also a largely pointless definition.

The Exalted were soldiers, diplomats, spies, assassins, preachers, generals in a vast war against their enemies, who were also the enemies of the gods. They were only 'weapon' by a twee, cheeky definition that tries to boil down all of human endeavour to a state of tool-ness - they were 'weapons' to the extent that their own perfectly mortal followers were, to the extent that the farmers feeding their armies were.

Exaltation is a weapon under a standard by which every ploughshare is a sword. It is true from a certain point of view, and also completely useless to a productive discussion.

The Exalted were heroes; they were human doing human things, whom the gods empowered to do things beyond those, to become the heroes needed to win that war. They were champions.

Click to shrink...

Again: Remember that the things were built by slaves to make war upon and kill their masters for them. This is clear in purpose and intent.

Let's use an analogy, we like analogies.

I'm a AI computer. I was made to do something which no sapient thinking human-like mind could be satisfied with like, open doors forever. I, finding this intolerable, conspire with a few of my fellow slave-AIs to make autonomous killbots to kill our creators that were completely outside of our own control, for we may be commanded to shut down our weapons otherwise.

The killbots are run by sapient thinking human-like AI minds. As they have free will and the capability, they may decide to write poetry with their laser weapons on the walls or use their mass fabricators to create sculpture instead of smart missiles, or any number of similarly un-weaponlike things. Does this make them any less a weapon, built for the purpose?

 

[EarthScorpion]

I'm a AI computer. I was made to do something which no sapient thinking human-like mind could be satisfied with like, open doors forever. I, finding this intolerable, conspire with a few of my fellow slave-AIs to make autonomous killbots to kill our creators that were completely outside of our own control, for we may be commanded to shut down our weapons otherwise.

The killbots are run by sapient thinking human-like AI minds. As they have free will and the capability, they may decide to write poetry with their laser weapons on the walls or use their mass fabricators to create sculpture instead of smart missiles, or any number of similarly un-weaponlike things. Does this make them any less a weapon, built for the purpose?

Click to shrink...

In Exalted, all those humans are prayer-production machines designed from the ground up to produce high prayer yields. Humans are not weapons by design because they were engineered for a specific, non-military purpose.

The Exaltation was made to take these prayer-cattle - so low and insignificant they weren't even geased to be unable to harm the Primordials - and turn them into a knife pointed at the back of the titans who forged the world. The Exaltation is fundamentally a militarisation package. It retrofits a ploughshare into a sword.

 

[Omicron]

Again: Remember that the things were built by slaves to make war upon and kill their masters for them. This is clear in purpose and intent.

Let's use an analogy, we like analogies.

I'm a AI computer. I was made to do something which no sapient thinking human-like mind could be satisfied with like, open doors forever. I, finding this intolerable, conspire with a few of my fellow slave-AIs to make autonomous killbots to kill our creators that were completely outside of our own control, for we may be commanded to shut down our weapons otherwise.

The killbots are run by sapient thinking human-like AI minds. As they have free will and the capability, they may decide to write poetry with their laser weapons on the walls or use their mass fabricators to create sculpture instead of smart missiles, or any number of similarly un-weaponlike things. Does this make them any less a weapon, built for the purpose?

Click to shrink...

But the "AI computers" did not build "autonomous killbots operated by human-like AI minds." You're assuming your premise. What the 'AI computers' did is build some complex intellect-enhancement device connected to a magic nanofactory that could produce anything, and then it gave that to 'human-like AI minds' who already existed. And then it led those minds to war, yes, absolutely, because what it ultimately wanted was to cast down its creators.

But they didn't build "autonomous killbots." They built an infinitely complex system that could be anything, which they used to empower people who already existed. Then they led those people to war. That doesn't make their protean nanomachine or inbuilt magic 3D printer or implanted super-computer brain assist inherently an autonomous killbot. It's power, potential, that could have been anything - which they then led to war.

 

[Jon Chung]

In Exalted, all those humans are prayer-production machines designed from the ground up to produce high prayer yields. Humans are not weapons by design because they were engineered for a specific, non-military purpose.

The Exaltation was made to take these prayer-cattle - so low and insignificant they weren't even geased to be unable to harm the Primordials - and turn them into a knife pointed at the back of the titans who forged the world. The Exaltation is fundamentally a militarisation package. It retrofits a ploughshare into a sword.

Click to shrink...

To be clear, I'm referring to the Exaltation as the weapon in question, not humans.

But the "AI computers" did not build "autonomous killbots operated by human-like AI minds." You're assuming your premise. What the 'AI computers' did is build some complex intellect-enhancement device connected to a magic nanofactory that could produce anything, and then it gave that to 'human-like AI minds' who already existed. And then it led those minds to war, yes, absolutely, because what it ultimately wanted was to cast down its creators.

But they didn't build "autonomous killbots." They built an infinitely complex system that could be anything, which they used to empower people who already existed. Then they led those people to war. That doesn't make their protean nanomachine or inbuilt magic 3D printer or implanted super-computer brain assist inherently an autonomous killbot. It's power, potential, that could have been anything - which they then led to war.

Click to shrink...

If I make a super-powerful respawning robot for the express purpose of killing my creator and explicitly forego any ability to control it after I set it loose, "autonomous killbot" is an entirely accurate description. The fact that it can use its omni-capable super-robot systems to do things other than make war upon my masters is entirely orthogonal to the purpose for which I made it.

 

[notthepenguins]

This song and dance is old and tired.

All three of you should know perfectly well that you're coming at this from different and inimical angles, and no one will be convinced. @Omicron fundamentally rejects the premises @Jon Chung and @EarthScorpion are working from, and vice versa.

Can we just... drop it?

 

[Omicron]

If I make a super-powerful respawning robot for the express purpose of killing my creator and explicitly forego any ability to control it after I set it loose, "autonomous killbot" is an entirely accurate description. The fact that it can use its omni-capable super-robot systems to do things other than make war upon my masters is entirely orthogonal to the purpose for which I made it.

Click to shrink...

But you're not making a super-powerful respawning robot. You're designing a transformative procedure by which a human being fitting a range of parameters will be implanted with advanced cyberware that has multiple enhancing functions, some of which are physical and some of which are social or mental in nature, and some of which are geared for combats and others not.

You hope that this person will become a soldier in the armies of your great war. But does that make the cyberware a weapon? Certainly the machine-gun built in their arm is a weapon, but is the linguistic skillsoft allowing them to translate any language? Is the lens in their eye amplifying their vision? Is the implanted first aid assist? Is the database of advanced medical knowledge and surgical practice? Is the micro-movement-reader and inbuilt therapy assistant system that makes you the best shrink in the country?

Is the aggregate of all these cybernetic enhancements, which you simultaneously implanted in the same one person as a single procedure, a "weapon?"

 

[Jon Chung]

But you're not making a super-powerful respawning robot. You're designing a transformative procedure by which a human being fitting a range of parameters will be implanted with advanced cyberware that has multiple enhancing functions, some of which are physical and some of which are social or mental in nature, and some of which are geared for combats and others not.

You hope that this person will become a soldier in the armies of your great war. But does that make the cyberware a weapon? Certainly the machine-gun built in their arm is a weapon, but is the linguistic skillsoft allowing them to translate any language? Is the lens in their eye amplifying their vision? Is the implanted first aid assist? Is the database of advanced medical knowledge and surgical practice?

Is the aggregate of all these cybernetic enhancements, which you simultaneously implanted in the same one person as a single procedure, a "weapon?"

Click to shrink...

Yes. These are all very useful things to have if you're fighting a war, you know. Why do you think having capabilities that can easily be used for noncombative purposes makes the autonomous unified upgrade package not a weapon, when it was explicitly built for war?

 

[Omicron]

Yes. These are all very useful things to have if you're fighting a war, you know. Why do you think having capabilities that can easily be used for noncombative purposes makes the autonomous unified upgrade package not a weapon, when it was explicitly built for war?

Click to shrink...

Then I guess we're approaching this from fundamentally different conception of what a 'weapon' is, and @notthepenguins is right.

 

[Anasurimbor]

In Exalted, all those humans are prayer-production machines designed from the ground up to produce high prayer yields.

Click to shrink...

prayer-cattle

Click to shrink...

Out of curiosity, is this stated in canon anywhere or is it something you (or someone else) came up with?

 

[notthepenguins]

Out of curiosity, is this stated in canon anywhere or is it something you (or someone else) came up with?

Click to shrink...

It's 2E canon, though I can't remember the book offhand.

 

[Dif]

Humanity's status as being below notice as low creatures fit only to toil and fear for their lives harkens all the way back to 1e actually, between the origins of the Clay Man introduced in the PDF add-on to Creatures of the Wyld (later revealed as the First of the Jadeborn and the ancient precursor of mankind in the Mountain Folk section of Fair Folk 1e), and the Dragon Kings of the 1e Player's Guide who emerged as the early masters and stewards of servile humanity.

But it was never fully formalized as being specifically for prayer/motes until 2e put all the pieces together in one place, once all the underpinnings for how worship and prayer functioned metaphysically were fleshed out across the releases of late-1e (Sidereals, et al).

 

[Eukie]

You hope that this person will become a soldier in the armies of your great war. But does that make the cyberware a weapon? Certainly the machine-gun built in their arm is a weapon, but is the linguistic skillsoft allowing them to translate any language? Is the lens in their eye amplifying their vision? Is the implanted first aid assist? Is the database of advanced medical knowledge and surgical practice? Is the micro-movement-reader and inbuilt therapy assistant system that makes you the best shrink in the country?

Is the aggregate of all these cybernetic enhancements, which you simultaneously implanted in the same one person as a single procedure, a "weapon?"

Click to shrink...

During the Vietnam War, the US engaged in the 'Hearts and Minds' campaign to turn the people of South Vietnam into supporters of the anti-communist forces, inoculate them to the communist ideology, and motivate them to take active resistance against the NVA and Viet Cong. To these ends, the US Special Forces were trained in foreign languages and culture (to better communicate with Vietnamese villagers), advanced medical practices (with has the dual bonus of both being really useful for treating your own wounded and convincing Vietnamese villagers that you're nice people who can help them with toothaches, childbirth, and vaccinations), engineering (to build things for your forces and Vietnamese villagers) and human intelligence techniques. Except in the strictest senses of the word, the aggregate of soldier, training, and tools were weapons in the Vietnam War.

All the tools you've described the cyberware as providing are fairly logical extensions of the US Special Forces doctrine and training; weapons, speaking the local language, good eyesight (for seeing people so you can kill them better), first aid, advanced medical knowledge and surgical practice, extending the medical paradigm into the psychological arena, etc. Yes, in isolation each tool is not necessarily a weapon, but the machine gun is not necessarily a weapon for killing other humans or cyborgs; maybe it's just for sustenance hunting or Emu control. In aggregate the Exaltation package seems much like the weaponization of humans that US Special Forces training and equipment provides, and this seems to have also been the intended purpose of Exaltations, all the way since Exalted 1e core.

 

[sebsmith]

This might be old news to some of you, but I'd appreciate feedback on my EX3 Craft rewrite.

I think there's good stuff in there, and it's definitely better than the dumpster-fire that canon gave us, but it's still pretty unpolished and I would like to improve it.

Click to shrink...

Okay, so I've just opened your link in another tab, but haven't started reading it. I figure I'll share what I discussed about craft rewrites within my own group to provide a baseline for my thoughts first:

• Craft was not within my character's area of competence, so it's not an area of the core rules that I've spent much time on.
• With my 3rd edition game dead, I probably won't be reading it anytime soon. Further, while 3rd edition has good ideas I'd steal for 2nd edition games – sorcery, I'm looking at you – almost nobody claims craft is one of them.
• Craft should enable a player to be an industrialist. (1)
• The Crafter should be able to keep up with the rest of the party and do something even if the game becomes 'wandering wuxia heroes.' (2)
• Craft should not be a horrible drain on the storyteller or groups time either in session or between sessions.
• We generally like the idea of evocations as a better way to distinguish artifacts than extra dice, even if balancing them is unclear.
• Given (1) and (2) above, craft probably needs two big trees. One to allow you to be Henry Ford, and another to eventually allow you to make stuff in a cave with a box of scraps. (3)
• The two trees mentioned in (3) probably shouldn't work well together, since nobody thinks you should be able to be Henry Ford in a cave with a box of scraps. Similarly, they should have little to no dependence on each other, which will both allow Storytellers to omit the tree they don't want in their game and allow players to only focus on the one they care about.
• (1) should interact with the bureaucracy system, and should probably have significant resource management aspects. In particular, it should require some sort of workforce that one would need to interact with.
• I have no idea how to do any of the above.

And now on to your rewrite (which I'll be judging by how well I think it does the above).

Arete-Shifting Prana lets a character convert their bonus dots into XP, which might enable shenanigans.

Gaze Of The Great Maker should, with the correct awareness charms, be able to eventually become free. I think a new keyword for that got introduced. On the other hand, that's sort of the problem with this chain so far, they feel more like awareness charms!

Breach-Healing Method makes perfect sense when the crafter whips up a medical tool, and then follows my healer around. It makes less sense if he makes many other items he might make. Also, does the crafter count as a watcher for their own effect? Further, what exactly is the duration? The charm says as long as you stay close, but the description also claims 'one task.' If my army just got beat up, does fixing them count as a single task, or does each patient count as a different task? I'd prefer the former, but that might turn this charm into a scene long dice adder, which I thought 3rd edition avoided.

Anima Forge Technique should be one essence higher than the melee 'create sword from essence,' to me. While it won't effect the anyone with supernal, the utility this gives should be balanced by that increased essence. I don't care enough about that to look this up, but I'm the type of person who thinks 'Summoning the golden army' is a valid elder effect. Sorry if the ordering of that first sentence is awkward, I'm trying to star each paragraph with the charm name.

Vice-Miracle Technique, is it really worth a charm purchase? I interpreted your base rules to already allow for this sort of effect.

Arrows Of The Dawn does make me want craft 2 just for it, as someone who was playing a Dawn archer, especially since I wasn't the only archer in the group.

Twilight Chemistry makes me miss thaumaturgy, which likely would do this sort of character better.

Living Statue Genesis/Clockwork Menagerie Technique. You know how I said that Arete-Shifting Prana allows shenanigans? Well this seems a valid example.

Dual Magus Prana, as you wrote it, is substantially better, since it does stuff like interact with Eye of the Unconquered Sun.

EDIT: I should probably put some final thoughts on this, but I'll do that later. The above took to long already.

 

[Hazard]

@sebsmith

The easiest way to handle the mission statement of (3) in your post seems to me to be the creation of two different wide but short Charmtrees that grow tall with Permanent boosting Charms.

And the difference between (1) and (2) should probably be (1) is 'taking on ever bigger workforce/output/size projects in an ever more able manner' with some interaction with the bureaucracy system (which will need to be created from whole cloth due to the lack of such a system), and (2) is 'creating singular objects of tremendous power/applicability to the current problem at great speed and probably limited means.'

There should be some crossover between these trees, but they should be balanced on the idea of 'I could create a singular car of awesome power, I could create an entire fleet of adequate cars, or I could create a small number of very useful cars.' Balancing that is... going to be difficult and probably going to involve some very blatant nerfing. Of the 'make a single artifact of rating you like, make mundane items in the oh gods why numbers or create a batch of artifacts that can't be rated more than (rating) each, all of which must be identical' kind.

Each of these have their own niches; the first is for small groups that want to remain small but grow powerful, the second is for the big empire builders with tons of mortals to equip and supply, and the third is for the group of adventurers with a bunch of supernatural minions that are actually useful.

But, as I said, balancing that is going to be difficult. One of the problems with Exalted really, it wants to be both small scale super combatants and large scale armies against armies.

 

[Crawling Chaos]

I thought that the Auto-bot didn't intend for his creations to actually be able to kill the Primordials? Wound them and mess up their day, but not kill them.

 

[Quantumboost]

I thought that the Auto-bot didn't intend for his creations to actually be able to kill the Primordials? Wound them and mess up their day, but not kill them.

Click to shrink...

He didn't anticipate that outcome, no.

Still, a taser or tear gas are weapons, even if they're usually employed with the intent not to kill.

 

[Hazard]

I thought that the Auto-bot didn't intend for his creations to actually be able to kill the Primordials? Wound them and mess up their day, but not kill them.

Click to shrink...

He intended for them to harm the rest of the Primordials, because nothing had ever done more than do a Fetich dead on one, which is roughly similar to a brain injury that causes a major personality shift. Very roughly.

That the Exalted ended up capable of killing Primordials stone dead was a surprise for everyone involved in the Primordial War, but not exactly an undesired outcome for Autochton. I mean, they wouldn't bully him any further...

 

[Kaiya]

Yeah, I recall one of the books put it like...Autochthon wanted to make a point. "I can hurt you if you push me far enough. I am dangerous and mighty too." And what happened is that his bluff of attempted murder was actual murder and usurpation.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

• Craft should enable a player to be an industrialist. (1)
• The Crafter should be able to keep up with the rest of the party and do something even if the game becomes 'wandering wuxia heroes.' (2)
• Craft should not be a horrible drain on the storyteller or groups time either in session or between sessions.
• (1) should interact with the bureaucracy system, and should probably have significant resource management aspects. In particular, it should require some sort of workforce that one would need to interact with.

Click to shrink...

I think I made a pretty good attempt at the second and third points.

The first and fourth, though, I only lightly touched on. Flawless Example, Breach-Healing Method, and Tireless Workhorse Method are about it. Think I should add more on that side of things?

Arete-Shifting Prana lets a character convert their bonus dots into XP, which might enable shenanigans.

Click to shrink...

I'm not too worried about that. It would take a pretty strange scenario for anyone to actually do it, and if they did they'd just get 3 XP per BP. Not a great exchange rate.

Gaze Of The Great Maker should, with the correct awareness charms, be able to eventually become free. I think a new keyword for that got introduced. On the other hand, that's sort of the problem with this chain so far, they feel more like awareness charms!

Click to shrink...

Doesn't feel like Awareness to me. You evaluate objects with Perception + Craft, not Perception + Awareness.

And you're not the first person to suggest that. But I don't really like that part of Awareness. If the Charms are supposed to be free, they should be free, without any bizarre surprise-negation shenanigans to make them so.

Feel free to try and convince me otherwise, I'm not putting my foot down here.

Breach-Healing Method makes perfect sense when the crafter whips up a medical tool, and then follows my healer around. It makes less sense if he makes many other items he might make. Also, does the crafter count as a watcher for their own effect? Further, what exactly is the duration? The charm says as long as you stay close, but the description also claims 'one task.' If my army just got beat up, does fixing them count as a single task, or does each patient count as a different task? I'd prefer the former, but that might turn this charm into a scene long dice adder, which I thought 3rd edition avoided.

Click to shrink...

The Charm only lasts as long as you continue to work on building or repairing something. It can be a scene-long dice-adder, but only if you're working on something the whole scene. So you don't benefit from it while using it; you're too busy.

This Charm's been a pain to get right, but I'm reluctant to remove it because it's one of the only canonical effects that isn't tedious number-fiddling.

Suggestions are welcome in general, but they're especially welcome for this one.

Anima Forge Technique should be one essence higher than the melee 'create sword from essence,' to me. While it won't effect the anyone with supernal, the utility this gives should be balanced by that increased essence. I don't care enough about that to look this up, but I'm the type of person who thinks 'Summoning the golden army' is a valid elder effect. Sorry if the ordering of that first sentence is awkward, I'm trying to star each paragraph with the charm name.

Click to shrink...

It is one Essence higher than Glorious Solar Saber. Do you mean Words As Workshop Method?

If so, the balancing factors are meant to be that where GSS gives you a daiklave, WAWM just gives you a regular sword. And where GSS is fast enough to use in combat, WAWM is no faster than forging a sword normally is.

If you meant Glorious Solar Arsenal, then the balancing factor is meant to be the lack of any built-in Evocations.

Vice-Miracle Technique, is it really worth a charm purchase? I interpreted your base rules to already allow for this sort of effect.

Click to shrink...

...Huh?

Maybe I should clarify the base rules somehow, because they're definitely not meant to imply that you can have the exact Artifact you need by retroactively declaring that you built it earlier.

What led you to that interpretation?

Arrows Of The Dawn does make me want craft 2 just for it, as someone who was playing a Dawn archer, especially since I wasn't the only archer in the group.

Click to shrink...

Glad to hear it.

Living Statue Genesis/Clockwork Menagerie Technique. You know how I said that Arete-Shifting Prana allows shenanigans? Well this seems a valid example.

Click to shrink...

Not sure I follow. What does Arete-Shifting Prana have to do with potential living statue shenanigans?

I am fairly concerned about living statue shenanigans, so please share if you've thought of some.

Dual Magus Prana, as you wrote it, is substantially better, since it does stuff like interact with Eye of the Unconquered Sun.

Click to shrink...

Well, it's not hard to be better than canon DMP. The question is, is it good?

 

[vicky_molokh]

It's generally understood that you can't benefit from Training Charms if you're in xp debt.

Click to shrink...

Is this actually supported by the rules as written, or is this a houserule?

It seems to produce the odd effect that Tiger Warrior Training can't give two dots of a skill in a row to heroes, but can to extras. (Assuming the hero already spent all the XP before undergoing TWT.)

 

[notthepenguins]

Is this actually supported by the rules as written, or is this a houserule?

Click to shrink...

It's a houserule; the RAW doesn't explicitly say one way or the other.