It is the moment when you should have Exalted and you don't. In some cases, you might even succeed. If you do, and the demon thinks you won't be convinced, it just won't make the offer, and find some other person to speak to. Also, Scroll of Exalts sucks, IIRC. Pick a Solar Exaltation. Fighting a Tyrant Lizard to save your family, or standing up to the Realm taxman and making an impassioned argument for why he should spare this village because it's already poor. Instead, you get maimed and your family dies, or the taxman laughs in your face and has you imprisoned for openly standing up to him. Then, you get the demon sweet-talking you, offering you the power of Hell's betrayed titans, the true masters of the world, if only you'd help them out. Then, no one can ever so much as inconvenience you again.

At least, this is my read on how it works. I hope its helpful.
Thanks, that was way more useful than the Infernal Character Creation section. It is very much what I knew but didn't... Think of.

Maybe the act that resulted in Cyan losing the opportunity to potentially exalt as a Solar and gaining the opportunity to exalt as an Infernal was when she decided to seek revenge against the other Dynast Great Houses rather than the take the moral high road by forgiving her enemies?
First, those bolded words are together in your post.

Second, that's a perfectly legitimate goal for a Solar... Ha, there's the Moment, it's sorta like Panther (But not really), Cyan decided not to be content with her lot in life, and decided to tear down the Realm and bring the other Great Houses to ruin. That's the moment.

Then TED pops up, umm, maybe a demon that had a sense of self would have been better?
 
It is the moment when you should have Exalted and you don't. In some cases, you might even succeed. If you do, and the demon thinks you won't be convinced, it just won't make the offer, and find some other person to speak to. Also, Scroll of Exalts sucks, IIRC. Pick a Solar Exaltation. Fighting a Tyrant Lizard to save your family, or standing up to the Realm taxman and making an impassioned argument for why he should spare this village because it's already poor. Instead, you get maimed and your family dies, or the taxman laughs in your face and has you imprisoned for openly standing up to him. Then, you get the demon sweet-talking you, offering you the power of Hell's betrayed titans, the true masters of the world, if only you'd help them out. Then, no one can ever so much as inconvenience you again.

At least, this is my read on how it works. I hope its helpful.

I personally prefer to imagine the failure of the Infernal Exalted as a failure of choie, not merely lack of skill (given the situation around many Solar Exaltations, that may be more likely to lead to an Abyssal Exaltation).

For the example of the Tyrant Lizard, you exalt as a Dawn of you charge forward to punch out its teeth. You exalt as a Dusk if you charge forward only for it to bite you on half and throw you aside. And you exalt as a Slayer of you look at it, want to fight it, but get too scared and wind up hiding as it eats your family.

That said, I know some people very much prefer "failure of skill" as a mode of Infernal Exaltation, since they might not WANT to play someone who is legitimately a fuck-up in some very important way.
 
Thanks, that was way more useful than the Infernal Character Creation section. It is very much what I knew but didn't... Think of.


First, those bolded words are together in your post.

Second, that's a perfectly legitimate goal for a Solar... Ha, there's the Moment, it's sorta like Panther (But not really), Cyan decided not to be content with her lot in life, and decided to tear down the Realm and bring the other Great Houses to ruin. That's the moment.

Then TED pops up, umm, maybe a demon that had a sense of self would have been better?
I'm glad I could help. As for the demon, well, what demon do you want living in your character's head? A blood ape, urging violence and war? A thoughtful Neomah, rather more diplomatic? The rather insane Tomascu? A stomach bottle bug who just likes to eat? A whimsical agatae? I'd suggest looking through the demon writeups in Compass: Malfeas or Rolls: Demons and Ghosts. If you don't have the books, I'd be happy to paste relevant chunks of the write-ups to you in a PM.

I personally prefer to imagine the failure of the Infernal Exalted as a failure of choie, not merely lack of skill (given the situation around many Solar Exaltations, that may be more likely to lead to an Abyssal Exaltation).

For the example of the Tyrant Lizard, you exalt as a Dawn of you charge forward to punch out its teeth. You exalt as a Dusk if you charge forward only for it to bite you on half and throw you aside. And you exalt as a Slayer of you look at it, want to fight it, but get too scared and wind up hiding as it eats your family.

That said, I know some people very much prefer "failure of skill" as a mode of Infernal Exaltation, since they might not WANT to play someone who is legitimately a fuck-up in some very important way.
The scars of your cowardice are a perfectly valid choice, honestly, it's something I'd totally allow as an ST, but it's not in my vision mostly because the whole deal of Infernals is that you were robbed. Your moment of glory was stolen from you by the same being now offering you a way out of the pit. It's a manipulation, to make you think well of hell, but it's a damned lie. This is, of course, merely my preference, it's how I design my own Infernals. As I said, I would not bat an eye at the example you provided if you submitted it to me in a game.
 
That said, I know some people very much prefer "failure of skill" as a mode of Infernal Exaltation, since they might not WANT to play someone who is legitimately a fuck-up in some very important way.
I thought both were meant to be possible origin stories for Infernals. Either that you failed because you weren't strong enough, or because you ran away.
 
Honestly, I think 'someone who is a fuckup in an important way' is generally important to a character. Or, well, my characters. But I think this being the defining moment of your Exaltation should very much be the exception rather than the rule. I doubt Hell wants the one who fled when the call came anymore than the Sun does. Better to take the one who should have been the Sun's Chosen, and make him ours. Mind, this isn't to say cowardice shouldn't be a character flaw for Exaltation. Just that it shouldn't be for a Dawn Caste Exaltation.

Actually.
Scratch that. Dawn Caste Sniper vicerally terrified of combat could be really interesting.
 
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I'm glad I could help. As for the demon, well, what demon do you want living in your character's head? A blood ape, urging violence and war? A thoughtful Neomah, rather more diplomatic? The rather insane Tomascu? A stomach bottle bug who just likes to eat? A whimsical agatae? I'd suggest looking through the demon writeups in Compass: Malfeas or Rolls: Demons and Ghosts. If you don't have the books, I'd be happy to paste relevant chunks of the write-ups to you in a PM.

Thanks, But I've got a word document with a list of every canon Demon (and book location) and all the Hombrew ones I can find, along with their descriptions. I Think I'm going to use a Jodigoba, a Wise Beast that Rides.

Demon of the First Circle
Progeny of the Radiant Basket
Jodigoba are the size of a small child, with long thin limbs and wide faces. Their skin often seems to fit ill on them, stretched thin in some places and folded over on itself in others, and their slitted eyes sit just above a mouth that is a little too wide. Jodigoba were not made for their looks, but rather their intense mental acuity and wide range of knowledge.

The Wise Beasts Who Ride are teachers without peer among those who dwell in the demon city, and sought after for this purpose. While they are patient with those they instruct, their students are frequently impatient and demand to learn things in the shortest time possible. In this case the Jodigoba will climb upon the back of their student and hold themselves fast with their long limbs and claws. They will then guide the student through a grueling week-long course of exercises and meditations that result in a much improved understanding of a subject. (Sadly, this is often too much for mortals and some of the less hardy demons)

Jodigoba enjoy sweet fruit very much, and many a sorcerer has paid one for their time with a selection of fine plants.

"Scroll of Exalts" is your problem. Quite a few of the characters in that break the "rules" for how you're meant to get thing, aren't actually valid characters, or in one case is a 100 year old Lunar built as a chargen character.
Goddamnit, White Wolf.
 
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So I'm trying to Make a Malefactor Caste as a Thought Exercise (And I've got an ST, but we're still talking about what kinda game we want to run). I know the example Infernals are Failures. But can a Infernal exalt if they failed in the act, but survived? Or succeeded in the act and got screwed? not only failing to attempt the task.

Think of a Solar Exaltation as an autonomous respawning drone following a program. When it becomes unhoused from its current host, it runs a function that searches all mortals in Creation for suitable criteria, usually from something along the following lines: a) X is currently doing Y audacious impressive thing and could really use the help, b) X has a grand and driving ambition and would act to fulfil it and could really use the help, c) X is a stone cold badass doing stone cold badass things, etc, etc. The algorithm goes "OK, sweet", locks on and joins with the host to make a Solar Exalt.

There are more people fulfiling the criteria in Creation at any given time than there are Solar Exaltations to go around, so a large number of people will not receive their shining golden lottery winnings even though they qualify for a ticket. The Abyssal and Infernal Exaltations target this population - the Abyssal the ones who got killed in the process of doing something awesome because they didn't get their shiny winning ticket, the Infernal those who tried to do something awesome and failed due to not having said shiny ticket or chickened out before they could roll.
 
the Infernal those who tried to do something awesome and failed due to not having said shiny ticket or chickened out before they could roll.
Canonically this is true. Personally, I prefer to limit Infernal Exaltations to genuine fuck-ups, not those who just didn't get a golden handshake.

Shinji cowering out in the corridor while Asuka gets eaten alive, as opposed to Shinji showing up to find Unit 01's not ready.
 
Canonically this is true. Personally, I prefer to limit Infernal Exaltations to genuine fuck-ups, not those who just didn't get a golden handshake.

Shinji cowering out in the corridor while Asuka gets eaten alive, as opposed to Shinji showing up to find Unit 01's not ready.
Why do you prefer to limit it that way?
 
Canonically this is true. Personally, I prefer to limit Infernal Exaltations to genuine fuck-ups, not those who just didn't get a golden handshake.

Shinji cowering out in the corridor while Asuka gets eaten alive, as opposed to Shinji showing up to find Unit 01's not ready.

Same here. I look for the failures of Virtue in most of my Infernal concepts.

Of course, with the way the Virtues oppose each other, this often looks like an excess of another Virtue. Testolagh, from Kerisgame, might look like an excess of Valour in how he took a group of brave strong men off to hunt down a Wyld-tainted monster and so provoked its kin who descended on his village and slew and ate them, but the qualifying act was a lack of Temperance where he abandoned his proper place in life and sought self-edification rather than doing his proper duties as the miller. Because he wanted to be a hero.

He could very well have become a Solar for the same actions, but the Solar Exaltation would have loved him for his bravery and desire to better himself and the golden glow would have come in time for him to save them. Not five days late.

(Of course, sometimes there isn't that opposition of Virtues - Sasi just had a failure of Conviction, and in the face of adversity trying to run her husband's satrapy for him making critical decisions when he was away blew it because of her doubts and worries and fears when trying to negotiate with a Terrestrial.)
 
It provides much better character fodder, usually.

At least in my view, it should be your fault in some way. It speaks to you. Every Infernal has that nagging sensation that I wasn't good enough, that I should have done it differently, that I should have been just a little more skilled, a little more talented, should have taken the shot - or not taken it, as the case may be.

If you failed and it wasn't your fault in some way, it loses the pathos. It becomes just a straight upgrade won because someone else didn't do the right thing.

It's something I think the early Infernal chapters actually did do right, even if they then fuck it up. By giving every Infernal a failure, they're given something to spur them on. Something which'll drive them to act in their first few months of Exalthood. The fuck-up, of course, was then smudging that over and going "Oh then they go straight to hell". But it's still a good idea, because it forces them to act and produces plot as their early experiments with power will probably be not exactly subtle.

(Of course, you can refuse to acknowledge it was your failure of Virtue and blame other people - like the too-cautious general who blames his prince for not giving him enough troops to attack safely - but that's still something to spur you on)
 
At least in my view, it should be your fault in some way. It speaks to you. Every Infernal has that nagging sensation that I wasn't good enough, that I should have done it differently, that I should have been just a little more skilled, a little more talented, should have taken the shot - or not taken it, as the case may be.
And it makes hell all the more seductive, because they slip in and tell you "no, it's not your fault, the world is just unfair, let's tear it all down" because no one wants to hear that they were just wrong. For me, it makes the Infernal experience very human in a way "you didn't get a cosmic powerup, sucks to be you" doesn't.
 
I really think that is an unnecessary restriction. And an odd way to handle the people you want to be your greatest champions. I mean, everything about what Hell is doing isn't totally intelligent, but deliberately seeking out the people who didn't rise to the challenge seems like a remarkably poor choice. Since these are unlikely to be the people who will risk their lives for your cause. Pick the one who could have been a Solar, not the one who would never have Exalted in the first place.

"My life is in shambles" and "immense wealth and power" is plenty seductive enough.
 
Pick the one who could have been a Solar, not the one who would never have Exalted in the first place.
I think this is indicative of a misunderstanding on your part. By my read, Revlid and EarthScorpion don't prefer Infernal Exaltations to target people who could never have Exalted - rather, they prefer it to target people who could have Exalted as Solars, but didn't because of personal failure. It requires a non-deterministic approach to a heroes story, but it makes for great character fodder.
 
I really think that is an unnecessary restriction. And an odd way to handle the people you want to be your greatest champions. I mean, everything about what Hell is doing isn't totally intelligent, but deliberately seeking out the people who didn't rise to the challenge seems like a remarkably poor choice. Since these are unlikely to be the people who will risk their lives for your cause. Pick the one who could have been a Solar, not the one who would never have Exalted in the first place.

"My life is in shambles" and "immense wealth and power" is plenty seductive enough.

Well I'm sure the Yozi would love to have great heroes working for them, there's another issue - The Infernal Exaltation, by necessity, reflects the nature of the Yozi. And the Yozi are, for all their power, a bunch of bitter, broken failures. Perhaps a hypothetical Gaian Infernal Exaltation might select people who aren't failures, but Malfeas and his kin are limited to people who have failed and fallen.
 
I think this is indicative of a misunderstanding on your part. By my read, Revlid and EarthScorpion don't prefer Infernal Exaltations to target people who could never have Exalted - rather, they prefer it to target people who could have Exalted as Solars, but didn't because of personal failure. It requires a non-deterministic approach to a heroes story, but it makes for great character fodder.
That's...a good point, actually. I did misunderstand, based on how I usually think about what Exaltation means. I was less thinking determinism, mind, and more...if you are the kind of person who can Exalt as a Solar, that's who you are in the dark. When all chips are down, that part of you that attracted the Exaltation will outshine your circumstances. If you can Exalt, if you are that person, then you're gonna end up making the choice that gets you Exaltation. It's who you are. If that moment of Exaltation comes, and you make the wrong choice, you weren't Solar Material. But this is getting heavily into my personal view on Solar Exaltation as a 'who you are in the dark' sort of moment. Which is certainly no more valid than any other criteria of Exaltation. Or more valid than any other view on 'how making choices works'.

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding.

Well I'm sure the Yozi would love to have great heroes working for them, there's another issue - The Infernal Exaltation, by necessity, reflects the nature of the Yozi. And the Yozi are, for all their power, a bunch of bitter, broken failures. Perhaps a hypothetical Gaian Infernal Exaltation might select people who aren't failures, but Malfeas and his kin are limited to people who have failed and fallen.
Counterpoint, and why I disagree: The Yozi's perversion of the Solar Exaltation cannot fully extinguish the light that once shown within. It will always and forever be drawn to those who should Exalt as Solars. They were utterly unable to change this function, and the best they could do was delay it, and force the moment to pass. They cannot change the criteria to pick any other than those the Sun would most smile upon in that moment. All they can do is put that person in a terrible position, and turn them to a darker path. (This is my personal headcanon, to be clear, not me making a definitive 'this is how it works' statement).
 
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That's...a good point, actually. I did misunderstand, based on how I usually think about what Exaltation means. I was less thinking determinism, mind, and more...if you are the kind of person who can Exalt as a Solar, that's who you are in the dark. When all chips are down, that part of you that attracted the Exaltation will outshine your circumstances. If you can Exalt, if you are that person, then you're gonna end up making the choice that gets you Exaltation. It's who you are. If that moment of Exaltation comes, and you make the wrong choice, you weren't Solar Material. But this is getting heavily into my personal view on Solar Exaltation as a 'who you are in the dark' sort of moment. Which is certainly no more valid than any other criteria of Exaltation. Or more valid than any other view on 'how making choices works'.

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding.

Another thing to keep in mind is that just because you can Exalt doesn't mean you will. Even if you try to succeed in that impossible circumstance, that doesn't mean that an Exaltation will be granted to you. Maybe a suitable one wasn't available at the time as all slots were filled, or maybe none managed to notice you when you needed it, or maybe it did but it noticed someone else and picked them instead - regardless, you'll fail because you didn't get that extra oomph you needed to do the impossible. And as you wallow in self-pity at your failure due to not being good enough, the Yozis would be more than glad to send a demon your way to make their offer.
 
Another thing to keep in mind is that just because you can Exalt doesn't mean you will. Even if you try to succeed in that impossible circumstance, that doesn't mean that an Exaltation will be granted to you. Maybe a suitable one wasn't available at the time as all slots were filled, or maybe none managed to notice you when you needed it, or maybe it did but it noticed someone else and picked them instead - regardless, you'll fail because you didn't get that extra oomph you needed to do the impossible. And as you wallow in self-pity at your failure due to not being good enough, the Yozis would be more than glad to send a demon your way to make their offer.
My position is that the Exaltation you should have had was the demon. Who can know the exact mechanisms the Exaltation uses? Why it picks one hero over another? The Yozi cannot stop their stolen Exaltation from choosing you. All they can do is make sure that if it goes to you, it does so on their timetable, when you need what they can offer. Essentially, my view on how it works is that they are withholding your Exaltation, not coming where one would never have been.
(At this point my position is getting further from 'could be read in the books' and closer to 'how I like it best', I'm rapidly reaching '2.5/2E canon does not support me at all' territory, so take my opinion with a grain of salt).
 
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I really think that is an unnecessary restriction. And an odd way to handle the people you want to be your greatest champions. I mean, everything about what Hell is doing isn't totally intelligent, but deliberately seeking out the people who didn't rise to the challenge seems like a remarkably poor choice. Since these are unlikely to be the people who will risk their lives for your cause. Pick the one who could have been a Solar, not the one who would never have Exalted in the first place.

"My life is in shambles" and "immense wealth and power" is plenty seductive enough.
What makes you think they have that much of a choice in the first place? Sol can't make his Exaltations choose a simpering, unambitious and unremarkable coward. The Dragons can't make their Exaltations awaken in someone without Dragon's Blood. The Maidens are mysterious, but they don't appear to direct Exaltations to someone not fated to bear them. Even with an Abyssal Exaltation tied fully to a monstrance and bound by necromancy, a Deathlord can't force their dark shard to Exalt someone who's not on the very verge of death.

It would make sense if the emerald shards of the broken gods could only "choose" those mortals who turned back at the very edge of heroism.

The Yozis place all their failings at the feet of traitors and incompetents. They're not honest in doing so.
 
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What makes you think they have that much of a choice in the first place? Sol can't make his Exaltations choose a simpering, unambitious and unremarkable coward. The Dragons can't make their Exaltations awaken in someone without Dragon's Blood. The Maidens are mysterious, but they don't appear to direct Exaltations to someone not fated to bear them. Even with an Abyssal Exaltation tied fully to a monstrance and bound by necromancy, a Deathlord can't force their dark shard to Exalt someone who's not on the very verge of death.

It would make sense if the emerald shards of the broken gods could only "choose" those mortals who turned back at the very edge of heroism.

The Yozis place all their failings at the feet of traitors and incompetents. They're not honest in doing so.
That is a good point! Simply by being tied to them, the nature of failure and misery might bleed off into the Exaltation! It's an interesting thought, actually, really interesting, that Hell's Titans are so doomed to failure that it has become as metaphysically their nature as perfection is the Sun's. I think, though, my preference would be to apply this particular flawed fate separately, by Caste. Tainted by the Dragon's love of doomed things, it seeks those who make the wrong choice. Malfeas' Exaltations appear when, in a fit of rage, you bring ruin to your life, perhaps striking someone with power over you, or slaying your beloved wife. Cecelyne's might appear to someone who once held faith in the rule of law, but witness to its failure, and has embraced corruption rather than fight it. She Who Lives In Her Name then appears to someone utterly betrayed by the natural order, perhaps, someone who feels wronged by those beneath them, and finds themselves on the bottom run. And Adorjan's bloody kiss comes in a moment of pure, absolute loss, the loss of everything, the kind of loss no one can come back from. When your family is dead, your lands burned, and you look upon the ashes of all your hopes and dreams and everything tying you to this world...you find Exaltation, and through it, enlightenment.

...that went off on more a wild tangeant than I meant it to.
 
It provides much better character fodder, usually.
How? How is having your character have to be "a fuckup" better character fodder than "you failed"?

And it makes hell all the more seductive, because they slip in and tell you "no, it's not your fault, the world is just unfair, let's tear it all down" because no one wants to hear that they were just wrong. For me, it makes the Infernal experience very human in a way "you didn't get a cosmic powerup, sucks to be you" doesn't.
I mean... My last character in Exalted was a Solar. She took her Second Breath while dueling a Dragon-blooded general for the fate of the kingdom she served*. He basically just took his half-assed sword training (he was a great general, but mediocre in personal combat [for an Exalt]) and when full anima flare, and expected that to take her down. But instead she cut off his arm and rammed her blade through his chest as she when Maximum Sunshine.

If, instead, he had beaten her down with his anima flux until she couldn't fight any longer, then had her taken prisoner with intent to [whatever] and kept alive/given proper medical treatment, that fits my perception of when an Infernal happens.

(If he had killed her, hello, Deathlords!)
 
How? How is having your character have to be "a fuckup" better character fodder than "you failed"?
I don't feel that "you failed, but could have succeeded if you gained sudden superpowers" has much narrative impact; "I wasn't strong enough" encompasses a very narrow span of characters, particularly when it is not in fact any personal failing that left the character without the appropriate strength.

On the other hand, failing to accomplish something due to a personal failure encompasses a wider variety of stories, and ones with far more potential for emotional loading later.

It's worth noting that I find them both overly narrow, but the latter provides interesting concepts, while the former provides dull ones. In my opinion, of course.
 
I don't feel that "you failed, but could have succeeded if you gained sudden superpowers" has much narrative impact; "I wasn't strong enough" encompasses a very narrow span of characters, particularly when it is not in fact any personal failing that left the character without the appropriate strength.

On the other hand, failing to accomplish something due to a personal failure encompasses a wider variety of stories, and ones with far more potential for emotional loading later.

It's worth noting that I find them both overly narrow, but the latter provides interesting concepts, while the former provides dull ones. In my opinion, of course.
... My preference, which is just that a character failed to be heroic at some point, includes yours.
You could take any character that fits your preference (which seems to be a flaw in their personality causing the failure; lack of skill is still a personal failing, even if the necessary level of skill is impossible for humans to achieve), slot it into a game using mine, and it would fit just fine.
 
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