Biigoh
Tanuki
- Location
- Tanukia
The pages in question showing First Age solar-ism~. :3
Kill Six Billion Demons » Wielder of Names 4-66
Kill Six Billion Demons » Wielder of Names 4-67
General Exalted Thread
Kill Six Billion Demons » Wielder of Names 4-66
Kill Six Billion Demons » Wielder of Names 4-67
The devs also spent a lengthy thread around the same time as Basphomy's debut trying to justify out why they considered the Mayan Empire to be "impoverished barbarians" in the pulp fantasy sense. So I would take their word to be suspect at best on the topic of a literal Dragon Lady with one hand dipped in blood.
For being writers they have an aggressively difficult time properly articulating the concepts they wish to get across.
AmineHsu
A worm, not a man, scorned and despised.
- Location
- NoVA
'Offended' isn't 'vague', 'broad' perhaps. Which is why people are seeing it as fairly villainous, possibly responding to any given offence with murder.
Now, perhaps that wasn't intended, but it's not how what's written comes across. I do have to wonder if they meant 'anti-hero' as she 'merely' casually murders people, rather than being dedicated to destroying Creation or genocide or something.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
The Punisher, Deadpool, Rorschach, Renegade!Shepard and the like casually murder people, but are classed as antiheroes. So the label probably fits.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
All of those examples besides Deadpool only kill people in pursuit of a specific purpose that's actually, y'know, heroic.
"I want stuff" is not heroic. At all.
Deadpool bounces between being a hero, anti-hero, anti-villain, and villain, depending on the writer, so he's a really, really bad example to use.
- Location
- The end of all things
She's not villainous, merely brave. It's a well-known fact that brave individuals are simply incapable of consistently suppressing the fundamental need for retribution when insulted.
See I'd be perfectly a okay with this provided it came with a charm. A charm that lets me do this
I'm thinking something keyed off of Fealty Acknowledging Audience that goes a bit like
Even in his degraded state Malfeas knows this core truth when he claims material things they cannot hurt him. Infernals with [Scrouge McDuck] are permanently able to display this mastery over matter based on grounds of Ownership. Nothing material the Infernal owns (through conquest, purchase, trade, creation, gifts etc) can harm her. Spears taken from her armories will fail to do damage, a kitchen knife will not cut flesh, literal mounds of silver and gold can be swam through with ease. Even using that ugly but historic five foot vase no body likes to smash him with will fail to cause any harm.
However possessions in question must be in the possession of the Infernal for a full season, this process starts however from the Infernal first laying claim to the item. Ordering fifty spears for her guard is a valid start, as is grabbing a sword from a dead enemy solider or buying a ship even if it takes a month for the sale to complete. In turn casual theft will not immediately revoke the Infernals possession, taking again a season long transfer of ownership before the small gods finally recognize the Infernals no longer own the item in question.
There is however an exception, this charm does not apply to items made from Orichalcum and Moonsilver. This effect is an echo of the surrender oaths much to Malfeas's dismay. However if successfully tainted with Vitoral this charm will be effect on said items.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
I suppose we have a different idea of what can be classified as killing people in pursuit of a specific purpose that's actually heroic. For instance, I don't consider (not too) subtly changing the tactics of Citadel defense so as to eliminate the galaxy's ruling body in the hopes of grabbing more power for humans to be all that heroic. Nor do I consider trying to enforce lack of differentiation between different levels of misdeeds.
Some of the stuff they do can be good, or not. But they also do bad stuff (including murder) which does not further a heroic goal. (That is why I do like the Deadpool example - because he's an example of a broad-spectrum antihero, who is capable of different deeds across the whole spectrum of alignment.)
I mean hey, for another related example, Gilgamesh is usually seen as either the Ur-example or really close to one, of a hero, not an antihero, but he's not a nice sort of person either. He does some heroic stuff and some bad stuff, such as apparently murdering a forest monster just for kicks, or some of the earlier stuff.
Sure, why not? Turn your soul into Willy Wonka's chocolate factory if you feel like it.
(... also, make sure you design a breed of First Circle Oompa Loompas if you do that)
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
The word "hero" has been subject to semantic drift. (For that matter, so has the word "anti-hero".)
The classically-oriented definition of the word fits the likes of Gilgamesh, Herakles, Cu Chulainn, and Indrajit perfectly. The modern-oriented definition, less so.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Sure, but Exalted seems like a game line that wants to use the old and the revised definition of a hero when talking about its significant characters (PC or not). Or perhaps some sort of meld of the two. Which definition of antihero do you think Holden was using? (This is not a rhetoric question.)
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
As I said: the actions are not the heroic part, the goal is.
Deadpool is a mercenary of uncertain morality, and also insane. Him being an anti-hero (or anything else) is entirely dependent on who wrote the issue you're reading.
Gilgamesh is a classical hero, not a modern one.
Definitely modern.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There is no 'classical' antihero in the sense of a antihero conceptualized as such in antiquity literature. There is, however, a 'traditional' antihero archetype, which is completely different from what's generally meant by that word in discussions like this. The traditional antihero is... well, the opposite of a hero, but not in the sense of being a villain; in the sense that they're lacking in heroic quality. They're often petty, miserable, failing at more things than not, generally indecisive and alienated from their surroundings. They're characters who do not drive the plot, and do not achieve meaningful success.
You could set up such a character as a foil to a classical hero.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
The classical antihero draws from the concept of the Byronic Hero.
- Classic Antihero
- Lacks qualities associated with normal heroes, such as idealism, courage or morality.
- Generally portrayed as a protagonist that the cast does not like or that the readers do not like, but still sympathize with.
- Undeniably flawed.
- Modern Antihero
- Aggressively opposes the morals and ethics of the 'Heroes'. Ex. Punisher, Ghost Rider, etc.
- Almost never cowardly or reactive, often pro-active to the point of excess.
- Received more favorably by readers as a 'badass', this is often exaggerated to the detriment of the character/plot.
- Flaws are usually used as narrative shorthand to demonstrate depth, and such flaws are often very shallow or marketable. "My family is dead so now I have inner demons."
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
"Usurp a bit of galactic political power" is IMHO not heroic as a goal, nor is making all crimes equal a heroic goal. In the modern sense.
Okay, you seem to be more informed than I am. Is it possible to correct my lack of informedness on the issue by sharing what makes the answer so clear to you?
Yeah, actually the classical antihero is a typical Infernal and/or Abyssal: someone who got into a situation where heroism is in order, actually seemed kinda-sorta-heroic at first sight, but was found wanting (e.g. too indecisive or cowardly or insufficiently stubborn, whatever).
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azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
The goal was "kill Harbinger and defend the Citadel". Choosing whether or not you have the human fleets come in to defend the Council is part of the actions taken in pursuit of that goal.
Except for "antihero" in the sense of "opposite of a hero" - as in cowardly, uncharismatic, uncertain, etc.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, that's the kind of character I'm talking about.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
We're talking about two different goals. One of them is heroic. The other is both more subtle and less heroic (and is in fact not pursued by all players).
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
The one you're talking about is something done in pursuit of the other, larger goal that I'm talking about and have been talking about this entire time.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Perhaps you see "Make humans grab some power from the galactic council" as a goal that is part of the "defeat Reapers" goal. I see it as an example of a side goal that matters to the character (and/or to the character's faction/etc.) that is pursued in addition to saving the world.
In fact, existence of goals pursued in addition to saving the world is something that I considered a very good aspect of Mass Effect 2 (to a lesser extent of 1 and 3), and this something that I consider relevant in the context of various world-shattering plots in Exalted:
I think a proper campaign that happens to include a world-threatening plot must have space for other, more personal plots. It is this inclusion of more personal plots that I didn't see the existence of the Usurpation or whatever as a campaign-ruining thing. Because I don't consider "and now the GM and players will abandon all other plots" to be an interesting way of handling such a campaign, and assumed that GMs would do it in an interesting way.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
I see it as something that may be done as part of the primary goal of "defeat the Reapers".
Because "hold back until we can throw everything at it simultaneously" is a totally legitimate tactical decision.
So, yes, even Renegade Shepard kills people (at least the ones who don't, necessarily, deserve to die) in the course of doing something actually heroic.
Romantic_Kaiju
Romantic Kaiju
- Location
- National Battlefield
So I'm trying to Make a Malefactor Caste as a Thought Exercise (And I've got an ST, but we're still talking about what kinda game we want to run). I know the example Infernals are Failures. But can a Infernal exalt if they failed in the act, but survived? Or succeeded in the act and got screwed? not only failing to attempt the task.
Can someone point out Cyan's Moment?
I mean, I don't see the Solar behind the Infernal like I do the others, or even what I had heard of Keris Backstory (Hesitated when she was going after her old slave master, got captured). Could someone show me Cyan's Solar behind the Infernal?
Huh, Just writing this out helped me with the character.
- The Slayer (Cearr) was a brave warrior who fought against the Bull, who was about to Rally his men, but instead broke and fled the field. Exalted after realizing his men were all dead, and his country pretty much Screwed
- Sulumor was an Apprentice Shaman whose god refused to accept her, and when she tried to sway the god, it threw her into the desert to die. Exalted Dying in the desert
- The Defiler (Opal) exalted after succeeding in a highly risky and dangerous surgery, when was blamed for the ship surgeon fucking up and got blamed for it. Crippled Chucked in the hold to bleed out.
- The Scourge (Gyrfalcon) got told he was never to command his own vessel, promptly hijacked one, led his pursers on a merry chase, wasn't going to get away, so surrendered. Exalted in the Brig.
- The Fiend (Cyan) was told your family attempted to rebel, they got slapped down like a bitch. She Decided reagin the family's former standing, and a group of Firman attacked the carriage took her back to the nest TED did the possession trick on one of them and said hey you wanna have power
Can someone point out Cyan's Moment?
To understand Manosque Cyan, one must look far back into Realm history. In RY 244, Manosque Viridian of House Manosque wielded the power of the Eye of Autochthon in a coup attempt against the Scarlet Empress. The Empress obliterated the pretender with the Realm Defense Grid and had his entire Great House put to the sword. No one was spared.
Or so goes the official story in the Realm history books. In truth, several scions of the family survived the initial purge, most by being in the Threshold at the time. Agents of the Empress eliminated these Threshold survivors over the decade that followed. In the end, only one Manosque child survived, an unExalted infant smuggled out of the Manosque compound in Gedir Prefecture by a maid during its invasion by the Empress's Legion of Silence. The boy was raised by the maid's family as their own, but when he came of age, the maid informed him of his secret heritage and what it meant, instilling in him a sense of entitlement and a desire for vengeance. And this cycle continued until the present, with the previous generation informing the next of its dark legacy. Despite their breeding, none of these descendants Exalted
At the same time, the fortunes of the family into which the Manosque had been adopted continued to rise. They rose to a position as patricians in the community of Guin, owning large tracts of fertile farmland. Twenty-five years ago, this patrician family's prosperity and noble bearing led to the Kepel household of House Nellens arranging a marriage between one of its unExalted sons and a daughter of Manosque hidden within the patrician family.
The product of that union was Nellens Cyan.
As with her predecessors, Cyan was informed of her secret heritage when she was old enough to understand the implications and the dangers of that knowledge, in this case the night after her graduation from the Spiral Academy. However, her mother also explained that hers was the first generation to be born again within the Scarlet Dynasty. It would be for her to decide if regaining the family's former standing was enough or if honor demanded more. Imbued with the same sense of superiority and entitlement that had led her ancestor to rebel so long ago, Nellens—no, Manosque—Cyan vowed to see the other Great Houses brought to ruin as Manosque, Iselsi and countless others had been before.
That same night, the carriage transporting Cyan and her mother back to Guin was set upon by a pack of spiny demons. Cyan's mother and their servants were killed, but she was dragged into the wilderness to the nest of firmin. There, the Ebon Dragon spoke to her through one of the firmin. He explained that he could empower the woman to make the dreams of vengeance her family had harbored for generations a reality, or the firmin could tear her apart, ending the Manosque line once and for all. Cyan chose life and vengeance and was soon wrapped in a spiked cocoon.
Or so goes the official story in the Realm history books. In truth, several scions of the family survived the initial purge, most by being in the Threshold at the time. Agents of the Empress eliminated these Threshold survivors over the decade that followed. In the end, only one Manosque child survived, an unExalted infant smuggled out of the Manosque compound in Gedir Prefecture by a maid during its invasion by the Empress's Legion of Silence. The boy was raised by the maid's family as their own, but when he came of age, the maid informed him of his secret heritage and what it meant, instilling in him a sense of entitlement and a desire for vengeance. And this cycle continued until the present, with the previous generation informing the next of its dark legacy. Despite their breeding, none of these descendants Exalted
At the same time, the fortunes of the family into which the Manosque had been adopted continued to rise. They rose to a position as patricians in the community of Guin, owning large tracts of fertile farmland. Twenty-five years ago, this patrician family's prosperity and noble bearing led to the Kepel household of House Nellens arranging a marriage between one of its unExalted sons and a daughter of Manosque hidden within the patrician family.
The product of that union was Nellens Cyan.
As with her predecessors, Cyan was informed of her secret heritage when she was old enough to understand the implications and the dangers of that knowledge, in this case the night after her graduation from the Spiral Academy. However, her mother also explained that hers was the first generation to be born again within the Scarlet Dynasty. It would be for her to decide if regaining the family's former standing was enough or if honor demanded more. Imbued with the same sense of superiority and entitlement that had led her ancestor to rebel so long ago, Nellens—no, Manosque—Cyan vowed to see the other Great Houses brought to ruin as Manosque, Iselsi and countless others had been before.
That same night, the carriage transporting Cyan and her mother back to Guin was set upon by a pack of spiny demons. Cyan's mother and their servants were killed, but she was dragged into the wilderness to the nest of firmin. There, the Ebon Dragon spoke to her through one of the firmin. He explained that he could empower the woman to make the dreams of vengeance her family had harbored for generations a reality, or the firmin could tear her apart, ending the Manosque line once and for all. Cyan chose life and vengeance and was soon wrapped in a spiked cocoon.
I mean, I don't see the Solar behind the Infernal like I do the others, or even what I had heard of Keris Backstory (Hesitated when she was going after her old slave master, got captured). Could someone show me Cyan's Solar behind the Infernal?
Huh, Just writing this out helped me with the character.
It is the moment when you should have Exalted and you don't. In some cases, you might even succeed. If you do, and the demon thinks you won't be convinced, it just won't make the offer, and find some other person to speak to. Also, Scroll of Exalts sucks, IIRC. Pick a Solar Exaltation. Fighting a Tyrant Lizard to save your family, or standing up to the Realm taxman and making an impassioned argument for why he should spare this village because it's already poor. Instead, you get maimed and your family dies, or the taxman laughs in your face and has you imprisoned for openly standing up to him. Then, you get the demon sweet-talking you, offering you the power of Hell's betrayed titans, the true masters of the world, if only you'd help them out. Then, no one can ever so much as inconvenience you again.
At least, this is my read on how it works. I hope its helpful.
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Maybe the act that resulted in Cyan losing the opportunity to potentially exalt as a Solar and gaining the opportunity to exalt as an Infernal was when she decided to seek revenge against the other Dynast Great Houses rather than the take the moral high road by forgiving her enemies?
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