General Exalted Thread

[EarthScorpion]

It seems to produce the odd effect that Tiger Warrior Training can't give two dots of a skill in a row to heroes, but can to extras. (Assuming the hero already spent all the XP before undergoing TWT.)

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Why is that odd?

Extras are a game abstraction. They're not "real people" - they're a tool for the GM to handle unimportant characters more easily. There is, literally, by definition no such thing as an important extra, because if they're important they stop being an extra (even if they're not heroic - there are mortals who are not heroic mortals. A Solar's old mother who she sends shiny loot back to isn't heroic, but she's not an extra). In-universe, there's no such thing as an extra with a reduced number of health levels due to OOC narrative unimportance. It just makes stuff easier for the GM.

Hence, extra Tiger Warriors are sufficiently unimportant that it just matters that the Solar had a training arc lasting a season and now he's got a group of Tiger Warriors who are as good or better than the Realm's foot infantry. If they were more important individually, they wouldn't be extras. And as soon as a PC decides to start metagaming with that, the GM is entitled to hit them in the face with the corebook.

 

[vicky_molokh]

Why is that odd?

Extras are a game abstraction. They're not "real people" - they're a tool for the GM to handle unimportant characters more easily. There is, literally, by definition no such thing as an important extra, because if they're important they stop being an extra (even if they're not heroic - there are mortals who are not heroic mortals. A Solar's old mother who she sends shiny loot back to isn't heroic, but she's not an extra). In-universe, there's no such thing as an extra with a reduced number of health levels due to OOC narrative unimportance. It just makes stuff easier for the GM.

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Wait, I remember that attacking a Heroic Mortal's motivation and making it a non-heroic motivation demotes a Hero to an Extra, and vice versa. Where is this neither-heroic-nor-extra state detailed, and how does one get stuck halfway between the former and the latter?

Plus, having Extras be faster learners than Heroes still feels like a discourtesy of the system towards the heroes.

 

[Aleph]

Plus, having Extras be faster learners than Heroes still feels like a discourtesy of the system towards the heroes.

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... Extras don't learn at all without appropriate training. Heroes get xp.

 

[vicky_molokh]

... Extras don't learn at all without appropriate training. Heroes get xp.

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I did mean in the context of intensive training, such as from Tiger Warrior Training.

 

[Aleph]

I did mean in the context of intensive training, such as from Tiger Warrior Training.

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Yes, and the intent of TWT is to use it to train armies, not individual heroes. You're missing the point of the Charm by applying it to protagonist characters.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Plus, having Extras be faster learners than Heroes still feels like a discourtesy of the system towards the heroes.

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Let's all say it together, then! Because Extras don't individually matter. They are a mechanical simplification. They don't track XP because they don't matter enough to have their XP tracked. If they mattered, they would have their XP tracked and wouldn't be extras.

Extras are faceless goons. They are the mooks your hero cuts down so mass murder makes them look braver and more heroic. If you were telling a different story, though, Baleni Tangerine and her comrades in her talon are the protagonists of a gritty war story of soldiers serving overseas in the name of the Realm. Unfortunately the show wasn't renewed for another season, and so they were all cut down by some glorious shining asshole casting Death of Obsidian Butterflies on them and so were maimed by razor-glass and left to bleed out, but they weren't extras in their own story. They had names, faces, backstories. Alas, that wasn't enough to save them.

But the point remains. An NPC that a PC remembers the name of [1] or adopts in the way that PCs do [2] isn't an extra, because extradom is a mechanical simplification for handling characters who are effectively mobile scenery.

[1] Or ascribes a nickname to because they can't remember the NPC's name. Like calling the talonlord "Big Red Hat Guy".

[2] "Oh, hey, some street rats! I'mma gonna keep them and take them away to Hell as morality pets."

 

[vicky_molokh]

Yes, and the intent of TWT is to use it to train armies, not individual heroes. You're missing the point of the Charm by applying it to protagonist characters.

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"The Solar can train with the unit or as a solo unit, increasing her own traits." - that seems to strongly support its applicability to individual heroes, including a hero doing it all by herself.

Let's all say it together, then! Because Extras don't individually matter. They are a mechanical simplification. They don't track XP because they don't matter enough to have their XP tracked. If they mattered, they would have their XP tracked and wouldn't be extras.

Extras are faceless goons. They are the mooks your hero cuts down so mass murder makes them look braver and more heroic. If you were telling a different story, though, Baleni Tangerine and her comrades in her talon are the protagonists of a gritty war story of soldiers serving overseas in the name of the Realm. Unfortunately the show wasn't renewed for another season, and so they were all cut down by some glorious shining asshole casting Death of Obsidian Butterflies on them and so were maimed by razor-glass and left to bleed out, but they weren't extras in their own story. They had names, faces, backstories. Alas, that wasn't enough to save them.

But the point remains. An NPC that a PC remembers the name of [1] or adopts in the way that PCs do [2] isn't an extra, because extradom is a mechanical simplification for handling characters who are effectively mobile scenery.

[1] Or ascribes a nickname to because they can't remember the NPC's name. Like calling the talonlord "Big Red Hat Guy".

[2] "Oh, hey, some street rats! I'mma gonna keep them and take them away to Hell as morality pets."

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I can remember someone's name as much as I want, but if someone comes and attacks that guy's Motivation, turning a heroic motivation into a non-heroic one, this turns the NPC into an Extra. And me remembering his name doesn't seem to provide any automagical protection for said NPC.

 

[EarthScorpion]

"The Solar can train with the unit or as a solo unit, increasing her own traits." - that seems to strongly support its applicability to individual heroes, including a hero doing it all by herself.

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It can be used to train yourself, but it's a War charm which has steep War prerequisites. It is a bulk training Charm which affects large magnitudes for helping you train your army which has utility for solo characters. A character with as much investment in War as you need to learn TWT intends to engage in large-scale combat and has put significant effort into learning how to lead units.

If you are just learning it to train a small number of named characters, you are not using it for its primary purpose.

 

[Aleph]

I can remember someone's name as much as I want, but if someone comes and attacks that guy's Motivation, turning a heroic motivation into a non-heroic one, this turns the NPC into an Extra. And me remembering his name doesn't seem to provide any automagical protection for said NPC.

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Okay, you know what? Let's try an experiment. Instead of just having you going "THIS IS WHAT CANON SAYS" and us going "NO THAT'S STUPID", I'm going to try to get you thinking about the rules in the same sort of way that we do, and see if that makes our point better. So.

Why is this the case? Why is the definition of an extra solely based on whether the character's motivation is heroic or non-heroic, and how is that defined? What is the purpose of distinguishing between extras and heroic characters at all, and how does defining them like that further said purpose? In your view, what is the reason for the rules being written this way?

 

[vicky_molokh]

Okay, you know what? Let's try an experiment. Instead of just having you going "THIS IS WHAT CANON SAYS" and us going "NO THAT'S STUPID", I'm going to try to get you thinking about the rules in the same sort of way that we do, and see if that makes our point better. So.

Why is this the case? Why is the definition of an extra solely based on whether the character's motivation is heroic or non-heroic, and how is that defined? What is the purpose of distinguishing between extras and heroic characters at all, and how does defining them like that further said purpose? In your view, what is the reason for the rules being written this way?

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TL;DR:
"As far as I can tell
It doesn't matter who you are
If you can believe there's something worth fighting for"

Longer version:
Because in Exalted, a worthy goal in life and a willingness to fight for it are what's important. What makes you matter. What gives the key to (at least some amount of) success. What rewards you with a ticket to ultimate holy power. This is a setting that encourages heroism, in line with "a time of legend, when heroes walked Creation[...], before the souls of men became the stunted".
Conversely, having a petty, "stunted" goal in life is a sure way to fade into insignificance in the world of Exalted, and the system supports this phenomenon by making Extras inferior to Heroes in many ways.

 

[Aleph]

TL;DR:
"As far as I can tell
It doesn't matter who you are
If you can believe there's something worth fighting for"

Longer version:
Because in Exalted, a worthy goal in life and a willingness to fight for it are what's important. What makes you matter. What gives the key to (at least some amount of) success. What rewards you with a ticket to ultimate holy power. This is a setting that encourages heroism, in line with "a time of legend, when heroes walked Creation[...], before the souls of men became the stunted".
Conversely, having a petty, "stunted" goal in life is a sure way to fade into insignificance in the world of Exalted, and the system supports this phenomenon by making Extras inferior to Heroes in many ways.

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That would justify extras having broadly lower stats than a heroic character, but that is not the case in RAW canon. Extras have simplified stats, not lower ones. It's entirely possible to have a group of Melee 3 Tiger Warrior extras go up against your Melee 2 hero and beat the shit out of him, so this interpretation does not hold true. Especially given that a worthy goal does not give you power, and indeed a major point of the setting is that you can believe you're righteous and just all you like, and it doesn't matter for shit if you come up against someone stronger - see Cecelyne for one of the earliest demonstrations of this. Hell, Chejop's Motivation is nothing but "justify my choices" - hardly "heroic" or "worthy" by the definitions you seem to be using, and yet he's one of the most influential characters in the history of the past Age or so.

So, it's not that heroes are automatically and inherently better than extras - they tend to be, but it's not a hard-and-fast rule. What, then, is the purpose of the differentiation between heroes and extras?

 

[Dif]

Wait, I remember that attacking a Heroic Mortal's motivation and making it a non-heroic motivation demotes a Hero to an Extra, and vice versa. Where is this neither-heroic-nor-extra state detailed, and how does one get stuck halfway between the former and the latter?

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This rule does not actually exist. Extras are defined by only four things:
- They have reduced Health Levels so they go down quicker, which typically means death but can be relaxed by the Storyteller for dramatic purpose.
- Damage against them does not roll and instead divided by 3 as Levels, which works into the first point.
- Do not gain mechanical bonuses for acting heroically, which means count 10s as 2, stunt for rewards or track similar resources like Willpower or Virtue channels, which is again noted as something to be relaxed if it would be in defense of a Motivation or similarly dramatic cue.
- Have "Template Man" stats which are applied universally across all members of their group, if they need to be individually referenced at all.

None of this actually dictates the "heroic-ness" of an Extra. In fact, the Social Combat rules of 2e insist that you cannot actually unwillingly alter the Motivation of another character outside of magic, only briefly Break it and force them to betray what they stand for, which otherwise leaves the Motivation intact for revisiting later.

So where does this misconception actually come from? An Abyssal Charm called Broken Heart Triumph that includes it as a specific Essence 4+ feature which targets only mortals and demands a Willpower payment against its social attack, or else the character is forced to choose their own less-heroic Motivation, also becomes an Extra (not resulting-from) and explicitly denies the option to pursue a heroic destiny or gain a non-Sidereal Celestial Exaltation at a later time.

It is, effectively, an extremely specialized form of "Save or Die" in the event a PC-equivalent heroic mortal faces off against an Abyssal who would, by most accounts, be slaughtering her wholesale regardless. The targeted mortal player chooses a less-heroic Motivation much the same way a fatally-struck PC is allowed to narrate her own death scene, as a means of providing closure to the character arc before the story moves on, and does not actually have any direction or "errata over" the particular rules underlying either Motivations, Extras or the definitions/alteration thereof.

So... it might not be wise to base your system-level assumptions about the role and definition of "heroism" as an in-setting concept off of that.

 

[Imrix]

Wait, I remember that attacking a Heroic Mortal's motivation and making it a non-heroic motivation demotes a Hero to an Extra, and vice versa. Where is this neither-heroic-nor-extra state detailed, and how does one get stuck halfway between the former and the latter?

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You're thinking of Broken Heart Triumph, an Abyssal Charm. Note, Charm, as in not part of the normal rules. By default, you cannot 'attack' a characters motivation; you can mentally break them down to 0 Willpower and then compel them to take actions that betray their motivation, but that doesn't actually change their motivation.

At any rate, this 'neither-heroic-nor-extra state' isn't detailed anywhere, because it's the default. Being Heroic is a deviation from the norm, so it gets detailed. Being an extra is a deviation from the norm, so it gets detailed. Being neither is simply being a character, so it requires no extra wordcount; just use the normal rules.

If you want examples, check the Mortals section of the Antagonists chapter. Note that the very first writeup, for farmers/townsmen/citizens/slaves, has an "Other Notes" section which says, "This character is a noncombatant and almost always an extra." and yet the writeup has 7 health levels instead of 3, because being an extra is a deviation from the normal rules.

 

[vicky_molokh]

So where does this misconception actually come from? An Abyssal Charm called Broken Heart Triumph that includes it as a specific Essence 4+ feature which targets only mortals and demands a Willpower payment against its social attack, or else the character is forced to choose their own less-heroic Motivation, also becomes an Extra (not resulting-from) and explicitly denies the option to pursue a heroic destiny or gain a non-Sidereal Celestial Exaltation at a later time.

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Wait, aren't Charms generally written in such a way as to demonstrate how the world is supposed to work in general? E.g. Insightful Buyer Technique showing us that scarcity is an External Penalty, Speed The Wheels telling us that projects have a Beginning and Broken Heart Triumph showing us what happens when a mortal's motivation becomes unheroic?

 

[Aleph]

Broken Heart Triumph showing us what happens when a mortal's motivation becomes unheroic?

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No, because it specifies that this is in addition to the Motivation thing, and it's a feature of the Charm concept, which is specifically about getting rid of a hero without killing them by dissuading the idealistic rebel from their crusade and having them go home and spend the rest of their days as a farmer. IBT is an exception-based Charm, it tells us that penalties exist by saying "this negates them".

If a Charm existed that could be used to bless a heroic mortal such that they didn't become an extra if their Motivation changed, you might have a point, but this is an enforced specific effect, not an exception to an unstated rule that tells us about said rule by implication. But drawing generalisations from what Charms can do leads you to wind up concluding a load of ridiculous bullshit.

And you still haven't answered the question of what extras are for. What, in your view, is the reason the gameline has for statting extras differently to normal mortals and heroes? Why was this decision made; what is the mechanical reason for it?

 

[Scia]

Wait, aren't Charms generally written in such a way as to demonstrate how the world is supposed to work in general? E.g. Insightful Buyer Technique showing us that scarcity is an External Penalty, Speed The Wheels telling us that projects have a Beginning and Broken Heart Triumph showing us what happens when a mortal's motivation becomes unheroic?

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No, I might point you towards the rule that a weapon wielded with HGF can't break until after a parry while most woden sword have a slight problem not breaking when parrying a grand goremaul. The chosen of the underworld always had a effect to sap heroism from people even before there was motivation as a concept inside the system.

 

[Imrix]

Wait, aren't Charms generally written in such a way as to demonstrate how the world is supposed to work in general? E.g. Insightful Buyer Technique showing us that scarcity is an External Penalty, Speed The Wheels telling us that projects have a Beginning and Broken Heart Triumph showing us what happens when a mortal's motivation becomes unheroic?

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Aleph has the essential point, but it's also worth noting that we already know what happens when a mortal has an unheroic motivation.

They're a mortal with a motivation. That's it. Like, that's how the rules for motivations introduce the concept.

Most mortals have relatively mundane and unexceptional Motivations such as "become wealthy," "marry someone nice and have a happy family," or "live a quiet life on a tropical island."

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The rules for Extras are introduced later, as a dramatic combat mechanic totally unrelated to motivations.

 

[vicky_molokh]

No, because it specifies that this is in addition to the Motivation thing, and it's a feature of the Charm concept, which is specifically about getting rid of a hero without killing them by dissuading the idealistic rebel from their crusade and having them go home and spend the rest of their days as a farmer. IBT is an exception-based Charm, it tells us that penalties exist by saying "this negates them".

If a Charm existed that could be used to bless a heroic mortal such that they didn't become an extra if their Motivation changed, you might have a point, but this is an enforced specific effect, not an exception to an unstated rule that tells us about said rule by implication. But drawing generalisations from what Charms can do leads you to wind up concluding a load of ridiculous bullshit.

And you still haven't answered the question of what extras are for. What, in your view, is the reason the gameline has for statting extras differently to normal mortals and heroes? Why was this decision made; what is the mechanical reason for it?

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Well, the way they look, they exist to emphasize the difference between heroes and non-heroes. To make it easier for the system to support wading through dozens of mooks with relatively low risk of failure, even when both have comparable skill levels and equipment. This applies to various degrees to different endeavours: slightly in social or intellectual pursuits (no double tens), moderately in personal combat (-4 hit boxes), and drastically in warfare (-4 hitboxes per level of magnitude, so a heroic commander's army has a much easier time beating an extra commander's army, even before accounting for extra vs. heroic troops in said armies).

I find the opinion that Extras are primarily useful as a way to simplify/shorthand-ify characters to be not very convincing, because the amount of exceptions introduced by the existence of Extras seems to exceed the amount of rules made simpler/faster to play.

 

[Scia]

Well, the way they look, they exist to emphasize the difference between heroes and non-heroes. To make it easier for the system to support wading through dozens of mooks with relatively low risk of failure, even when both have comparable skill levels and equipment. This applies to various degrees to different endeavours: slightly in social or intellectual pursuits (no double tens), moderately in personal combat (-4 hit boxes), and drastically in warfare (-4 hitboxes per level of magnitude, so a heroic commander's army has a much easier time beating an extra commander's army, even before accounting for extra vs. heroic troops in said armies).

I find the opinion that Extras are primarily useful as a way to simplify/shorthand-ify characters to be not very convincing, because the amount of exceptions introduced by the existence of Extras seems to exceed the amount of rules made simpler/faster to play.

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That is a victim of you comming from the second and not the first edition as there the diffference between extras and regular and heroics was much lower. "3/7/7 health levels, Can't Stunt&explode dices /can get 2 sucess on a 10/ Can do that and get 2 point stunts.

That was the basic difference between them.

 

[Walker of the Yellow Path]

Does anyone have Vehicle stats for ordinary ships and vehicles?

I'm working on an Artifact Dreadnaught (really a repurposed Shogunate cargo ship, but what's the difference in this Age of Sorrows), and Wonders of the Lost Age doesn't give me a comparison to what a mundane ship might have as stats.

 

[Yonatan]

Does anyone have Vehicle stats for ordinary ships and vehicles?

I'm working on an Artifact Dreadnaught (really a repurposed Shogunate cargo ship, but what's the difference in this Age of Sorrows), and Wonders of the Lost Age doesn't give me a comparison to what a mundane ship might have as stats.

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Try Scroll of Kings. It has more conventional, not-Artifact ships.

 

[Revlid]

Does anyone have Vehicle stats for ordinary ships and vehicles?

I'm working on an Artifact Dreadnaught (really a repurposed Shogunate cargo ship, but what's the difference in this Age of Sorrows), and Wonders of the Lost Age doesn't give me a comparison to what a mundane ship might have as stats.

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Scroll of Kings, I believe, but don't quote me on that.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

So I am here, once again, to try and finish the Elusive Shrike Style. And ask some opinions on Exellencies, but the Style first.

Elusive Shrike Style
Some set traps in great numbers, caring not for which catches their prey so long as the prey is caught. Others spend hours, days, or even years memorizing the routine of a specific target, so that they may cause a single, perfect disruption.
And some just run up to the guards, curse them out, and lead them into an ambush when they pursue. These last are the Elusive Shrikes, and few Styles, if any, are responsible for more frustration.
1: +1 to avoiding a trap you've set
2: +1 to concealing a trap from your current pursuers
3: +1 to triggering a trap while Evading or Disengaging

What do you guys think? @Aleph?

And on Excellencies. I'd like to get know the general opinion on giving each Exalt type a thematic Excellency, like an even broader Infernal excellency, as their only starting power. So a new Abyssal could spend power to emulate a master archer/swordsman/demolitionist, because it fits in with their 'rust, ruin, decay, and destruction' theme, and a Solar could make themselves good at gardening, cooking, or crafting explosives, because their theme is 'making everything they touch into something more'.
I guess I was thinking to make it a little more than an Excellency, though. As I understand it, Excellencies are enhancers for one's natural abilities - pay X motes, get Y bonus dice to a skill you already possess - but what I was thinking was to add those bonus dice to any action within it's theme, even if a normal human couldn't reasonably have an influence. And if I want that, tweaking the Anima seems the logical way to do it - it makes sense for an Abyssal to extend their Anima to stop someone's heart, or a Lunar to make theirs into a tail to help them climb.
So... comments?

 

[Walker of the Yellow Path]

And if I want that, tweaking the Anima seems the logical way to do it - it makes sense for an Abyssal to extend their Anima to stop someone's heart, or a Lunar to make theirs into a tail to help them climb.

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Wouldn't these just be Charms or Shapeshifting? IIRC, Stopping Hearts would probably be a touch Range Abyssal Medicine Charm, and Lunars actually have a knack that lets them do small shapeshifts for bonuses.

 

[Dif]

Okay so, here is the dirty secret about Thematic Excellencies: they are simply roll-modifiers, and the way the ST system is arranged vastly overvalues them.

Before, die-adders were specialized Charms tucked away into every Charm tree as an (understandable) method for keeping pool-values low, but as the scope of the game increased so did the perception of dice and the required numbers to compete effectively inflated right along with them. By the time 2e hit and codified them universally, it was generally accepted that you would be buying and using them as often as you could, for the longest duration available to you (Infinite Mastery et al), if only to guarantee you would be succeeding at the majority of the rolls you were attempting to make.

They were still limited to per-Ability/Attribute use as both a legacy effect and to insure that "superhuman competence" above the 10-13 maximum pool for traits still felt like a meaningful advancement step, and that characters would have a "niche" they were settled into that prevented them from simply slamming down 20 dice on "whatever I feel like doing right now." Which is, unfortunately, exactly what you tend to find in the broad-uses of Thematic Excellencies.

Yes, they feel less-restrictive and more characterful on their face, but all that Thematic Excellencies actually provide is a customized niche chosen by the player as "this specific set of things I plan on doing ingame" rather than "everything remotely related to Archery tasks." So if you want to remove the niche-modifier aspect and allow other Exalts to also measure themselves by a statement of "I want the Option to pay 1m/1d to enhance whatever roll I happen to be stunting," then you should simply keep the rule as that by itself, and save yourself the trouble of trying to pin down the specific keywords and apply them to themes as ugly-broad as the Solars and Lunars tend to be.